Denver commuter e-bike

[docnjoj]

I've never met anything that shifts well under power except automatic transmissions! Even derailleurs need you to ease up slightly during shifts to work perfectly smooth. I would love to meet a lightweight 3-8 speed hub that shifted perfectly, even under power! Also "Power shifting" manual transmissions in cars has always bought me early rebuilds!
otherDoc

 

[MitchJi]

5) No suspension or disc brakes. First off, I think the suspension and mechanical disc brakes found on "cheap" bikes are utter garbage. Second, I want less to break. Third, I'm running a front hub motor, so there isn't clearance. Fourth, I've been down plenty of 30 mph+ hills on a road bike with 23c tires and caliper brakes, and have lived to tell the tale.

Hi Toshi,

Forgive me if I am repeating other comments (I didn't read the entire thread).

I agree with a lot of your decisions. A few of your decisions don't match my personal preferences but seem reasonable to me.

One decision I think you should reconsider is the "no disc brakes". Its a fact that good disc brakes are far superior. The fact that you have lived so far without them is not a good reason not to get excellent brakes. If the disc brakes on your chosen bike are garbage then upgrade them. Whatever the cost its very cheap insurance. If you are going down hill at 30mph a stopping distance of a few feet could be the difference between a major injury and not having an accident.

One alternative is the eZee geared front hub (sold by ebikes.ca). It is compatible with front disc brakes. The geared eZee will be superior to the (non-geared) xlyte for hill climbing which is probably one of your primary concerns in Seattle. It also appears to use (according to the ebikes site) better quality components than xlyte.

 

[Toshi]

MitchJi: thanks for your comments. I agree that a front disc might have been better, but so far I've been ok. Even though my downhill bike had 8" hydraulic discs I don't feel they're warranted in every situation, and so far in the mostly-dry weather the V brakes have sufficed. I hope I don't have too many close calls this winter commuting season, both from the brake power and tire traction-on-wet-streets points of view.

docnjoj: a DSG gearbox is reputed to shift perfectly smoothly under power (in automobiles), what with its two clutches... Probably overkill for bikes

voicecoils: My gripes are both the lag, which I also experience, and the general inconsistency. I must have a kink in my housing or routing somewhere since cable pull via the twist shifter just doesn't feel as smooth as it should be, and shifts in either direction don't always slot equally.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

I've never met anything that shifts well under power except automatic transmissions! I would love to meet a lightweight 3-8 speed hub that shifted perfectly, even under power!
otherDoc

docnjoj: a DSG gearbox is reputed to shift perfectly smoothly under power (in automobiles), what with its two clutches... Probably overkill for bikes

FYI: Its not lightweight but I received the following from Nuvinci tech support:

I noticed you state you didn't like how the CVP worked with electric
motors. What was the issue? Shift force? We will be releasing a
"developer kit" that has an automated shifter for use on LEVs, e-bikes, and
smaller gas-powered vehicles.

 

[graevus]

Yo Toshi,

You took them pics from gasworks park right? I lived on Queen Ann hill for over ten years. 6th W. and Crockett.

Seattle in the house...

Interested in your e-bike experiences in our challenging hills/water locality. You work in Ballard, yes? Ya, sure, you betcha. (weak Norwegian humor).

looks like fall this week huh?; 8 more months of rain to go. Sunny season is over...

Keep up the good posts

 

[Toshi]

graevus, thanks for the post. Yes, those photos were at Gasworks. The torque arm and fork in particular are different (as well as the rack, panniers, chainring, and cog), but the impression is still similar.

I actually live on Capitol Hill and work at Harborview and UW med center (just south of campus on the water by the Montlake cut). Hills such as the one up 23rd are infinitely better with the electric assist but still require a healthy effort, especially since I made the gearing on my bike quite tall so that I can pedal along at 30 mph at a normal cadence. A geared motor may indeed be a better solution, but Crystalyte was what was tried and true, and it has only let me down once (the failed Hall sensor/controller swap deal due to the rain).

 

[julesa]

If you are going down hill at 30mph a stopping distance of a few feet could be the difference between a major injury and not having an accident.

I've got caliper brakes, but my stopping distance limiter has never been the brakes. The limiter has always been the friction the tires can provide on the road's surface. As far as I'm concerned, there is no difference between disc and caliper -- both are 100% effective at slowing/stopping the wheel, and equally (but <100%) effective at stopping the bike.

 

[swbluto]

Nice bike. I also have a 407 which I run at 48V. My practical sustainable top-speed on flat-land, though, is about 28 mph as my tallest front-gear is 42-tooth. I can get to 31 mph, but it's only for tens of seconds.

Toshi, I'm curious, did you ever participate in UW's electric bicycle plan that I heard about that was implemented(Or was being planned to be implemented) a year or two ago(Was it a rental plan)? I'm wondering if that might have captured your initial E-bike attention.

Oh yeah, BTW, I might be coming to your school soon.

Not to taunt you, of course.

 

[swbluto]

If you are going down hill at 30mph a stopping distance of a few feet could be the difference between a major injury and not having an accident.

I've got caliper brakes, but my stopping distance limiter has never been the brakes. The limiter has always been the friction the tires can provide on the road's surface. As far as I'm concerned, there is no difference between disc and caliper -- both are 100% effective at slowing/stopping the wheel, and equally (but <100%) effective at stopping the bike.

Unless you live in Seattle... :lol:

(I've heard the rain/moisture degrades the performance of the pads on the rim during braking and while you might prepare for "expected braking" situations by rubbing the moisture off the rims by slight squeezing, it's those emergency "surprise" stops where you might find different results.)

 

[Toshi]

swbluto: It is true that wet caliper brakes have poor response at first. Then again, wet tires on wet pavement have a low coefficient of static friction, and locking the brakes up initially with the strong bite of a hydraulic disc and a firm grip wouldn't be a good idea. What I fear most is having to slow down or change direction while crossing over a metal plate in the wet...

I didn't catch wind of UW's e-bike program. Instead I stumbled upon this site after looking into the electric motorcycle and then scooter world. I didn't want to buy some unsupported old-tech (lead acid, brushed motor, low voltage) Chinese drop-shipped scooter, and found this forum's technical and practical advice combined with the support of ebikes.ca to be just the ticket.

Finally, with regard to you coming to UW: what program? I'll be here through next June then I'm off to New York (East Meadow, Long Island in particular) for radiology residency.

In other news my shifting is smooth once again, at least on the workbench after taking down all of the housing and cable, lubing it up, and putting it back with a special eye to eliminating kinks and tension.

Adjusting the Nexus hub itself is a pain: it's rather infuriating not having a barrel adjuster at the rear of the bike, and I find the front one on the shifter pretty useless. As it is it means that each stepwise adjustment requires one to pull the last piece of housing out of its stops to make some slack, pull the cable and its "nut" out of the groove on the hub, adjust the cable length using two adjustable crescent wrenches, then repeat the process to reassemble the whole apparatus. In comparison adjusting a derailleur simply requires a few turns of a barrel adjuster, or unscrewing one allen bolt (without any other disassembly!). Bah. Oh well, it's still a nice, clean design, but this aspect in particular is half-assed.

 

[Zoot Katz]

I've got caliper brakes, but my stopping distance limiter has never been the brakes. The limiter has always been the friction the tires can provide on the road's surface. As far as I'm concerned, there is no difference between disc and caliper -- both are 100% effective at slowing/stopping the wheel, and equally (but <100%) effective at stopping the bike.

Unless you live in Seattle... :lol:

(I've heard the rain/moisture degrades the performance of the pads on the rim during braking and while you might prepare for "expected braking" situations by rubbing the moisture off the rims by slight squeezing, it's those emergency "surprise" stops where you might find different results.)

All season cyclists on the wet coast of Casccadia know of "Salmon Pads" by KoolStop. Bike shops would be considered remiss if they didn't keep them in stock.
Their performance is noticeably better in wet weather.

 

[swbluto]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/education/2004035112_uwbikes26m.html - Apparently, I read the headline from a news article that was created 1 year ago. The actual program started this fall(or was being planned to), so it's fairly new it seems. My intended major is computer engineering and I'm planning on applying to the department for the upcoming Spring Quarter and Fall quarter(I'm applying for admission with the first quarter being this Winter though. I'm trying to escape from the bowels of eastern Washington's dreaded snowiness before it climaxes.). If I don't get in either times, I'm saying "Hasta la vista!" and heading else-where(probably WWU).

And, hehe, I thought my mention of building an electric bicycle would portray my enthusiasm for electronics in my admissions essay but then I came across an article similar to the one listed above. Seattle just doesn't know how void Spokane is of this technology!As far as I know, there are NO dealers of any type of electric transportation devices here, besides the meager offerings of department stores.

And, Salmon Pads. I'll have to look into that. I originally went with changing out the front V's for disc brakes for the potential wetness but it's nice to know there are other options. And, yeah, the coefficient of kinetic friction(static is when the object isn't moving relative to the surface, and it's usually higher than the kinetic) is usually lower, but it's only usually .2 lower! We had a cop, in my physics class, that came to show us how his department did traffic analysis and it appeared the usual coefficient of friction for dry roads and rubber was around .8 while wet roads had a coefficient of friction around .6. So that's about a 25% reduction in friction and, thus, a 25% difference in acceleration so it'd take about 1.33 times the distance to stop with a locked tire. I'm not sure about what the dynamics of "rolling resistance" are when the wheel isn't locked but you're braking near-maximally, though. Some car-braking experts seem to think it's higher than a lock-up.

 

[Toshi]

My rainy commute to and from the UWMC this rainy Veterans' Day marked my passage of the 500 mile mark. Now I'm at 501 miles, having used 12.17 kWh (22.68 Wh/mi lifetime average thus far), costing $0.46 at Seattle's cheap rates, for an electricity cost of $0.0009/mile.

8)

 

[Toshi]

today i swapped out my ebikes.ca LiFePO4 pack's BMS (battery management system) for an updated version. this updated version is reputed to keep the cells in better balance than the old version. fwiw, the old version worked pretty well for me, as here are the voltages on the 15 cells in my nominally 48V pack after riding about 2 miles in very hilly terrain:

starting closest to cord then moving in 1-5 order per row, 3 rows:
3.30
3.31
3.30
3.31
3.30

3.30
3.30
3.28
3.30
3.30

3.30
3.30
3.30
3.31
3.30

in any case ebikes.ca sent me the new BMS, shrinkwrap, and instructions for free. you can follow along in their instructions here: http://ebikes.ca/BMS_Replacement.pdf . i apologize for the poor quality of the phonecam pics -- i sold my dSLR a few months ago and haven't replaced it yet.

here's the battery stripped of its outer shrinkwrap:

a top view showing its logical layout quite well after the fiberglass panel is retracted:

the business end once a protective plastic cover is loosened and removed, with the green circuit board being the old BMS:

this was probably the most difficult part, freeing the BMS from the pack while leaving the glued-on foam attached to the pack rather than to the old circuitry:

the BMS freed of its connection to the individual cells (white connector) and to the battery negative and pack negative leads (via a soldering iron):

here are the corresponding leads soldered back in place on the new, red BMS circuit board:

and here is the pack after re-shrink wrapping and taping over the ends with waterproof duct tape:

at the beginning and end of this procedure the total pack voltage was 49.3V via my multimeter, about par for the course after riding a bit, so i trust that it's still functional. it's charging up now for this afternoon's rides -- yes, i actually have the day off!

 

[Toshi]

Today I had the chance to test out the capacity of the battery pack with fresh-out-of-the-oven BMS as per the last post in this thread: I used 10.11 Ah (out of a nominal 12) with an ending voltage of 48.4V, with the end point chosen when I arrived home, not when I hit any low voltage cutout. This wasn't even with a full charge -- I had commuted to and from work earlier today and hadn't had a chance to fully recharge the battery before setting out on this long ride. If this is any indication I should be able to get 11 Ah out of the battery just as ebikes.ca claims. Excellent.

In other news the OEM Crystalyte spokes and front rim have seen better days, with the problem exacerbated by the fact that my red/green/blue Park spoke wrenches don't fit the spoke nipples -- 13 gauge possibly? I'm currently at the 594 mile mark and I definitely foresee having the hub rebuilt with fresh 14 gauge stainless spokes, brass nipples, and a "real" rim before 1000 miles.

 

[Zoot Katz]

Today I had the chance to test out the capacity of the battery pack with fresh-out-of-the-oven BMS as per the last post in this thread: I used 10.11 Ah (out of a nominal 12) with an ending voltage of 48.4V, with the end point chosen when I arrived home, not when I hit any low voltage cutout. This wasn't even with a full charge -- I had commuted to and from work earlier today and hadn't had a chance to fully recharge the battery before setting out on this long ride. If this is any indication I should be able to get 11 Ah out of the battery just as ebikes.ca claims. Excellent.

In other news the OEM Crystalyte spokes and front rim have seen better days, with the problem exacerbated by the fact that my red/green/blue Park spoke wrenches don't fit the spoke nipples -- 13 gauge possibly? I'm currently at the 594 mile mark and I definitely foresee having the hub rebuilt with fresh 14 gauge stainless spokes, brass nipples, and a "real" rim before 1000 miles.

FWIW, the spokes on my stock Xlyte wheel were starting to make noise at ~500 km. That was after they'd been tensioned and stress relieved on a truing stand before entering service. At 500 km they were brought back into tension and trued on the bike. They've not made a peep in the 796 km since. So, two sessions with a spoke wrench in 777 miles on the stock rim. Wheels provided by a factory are generally machine-built. Wheels are easier to build under tensioned even when they're built by hand. Barring disaster, I expect the sidewalls to wear through before the rim needs to be replaced.

The stock Xlyte rim's weakness is having the eyelets drilled out for the 12 ga. spokes. There's an article here about using metallurgically superior 13 ga spokes* that don't require drilling the rim. The Xlyte rim profile looks the same as the Sun Rhyno Lite. When my wheel requires rebuilding I'll opt for the smaller diameter SS spokes, triple walls and intact eyelets.

A spoke wrench size to fit the stock nipples can be found on a generic cheapo universal spoke wrench. Mine has four slots and the second largest works. I've seen six slotted ones in bubble pack on the rack at more than a few stores.

*Wheelsmith, IIRC.

 

[Toshi]

Thanks for the tip, Zoot Katz. Turns out the blue Park Tool spoke wrench (SW-3 for those searching for it) is the proper size. After calling maybe a dozen bike shops in the area going from bigger to smaller I found one that actually had a blue Park spoke wrench in size so now my wheel is once again true and brakes adjusted with proper runout. Excellent. FWIW, my spokes have been making a racket since about the same point as yours. The bearings sound a bit gritty, too... Oh well, electrical assist conquers all minor sources of resistance.

8)

 

[Toshi]

sent just now to info@quantya.us. i have the approval from the girl, too, and am dialing down my retirement fund contributions so as to save up some cash. (before anyone berates me i had been socking away over 40% of gross income so far this year! and still will be doing 5% + 5% match the remainder of the year.)

To whom it may concern-

I'm interested in test riding and possibly purchasing a Quantya Strada. I currently commute on a homebuilt electric bicycle as can be seen here ( http://tinyurl.com/9bvk3m ) and am interested in making the next step to a sturdier platform with real lighting, an inboard motor, a greater range and speed, and suspension.

This purchase would be made in June or July 2009. Currently I live in Seattle, WA but am moving in July 2009 to somewhere nearby to East Meadow, NY as I'm a physician and that's where my residency training is taking me (Nassau University Medical Center specifically). East Meadow is 11 miles from your company's Syosset, NY office.

I have several questions:

1) Is there anywhere local to my current location (Seattle) where I could test ride a Quantya Strada?
2) Would local support be available for the Strada in Long Island thanks to your sales office's proximity?
3) What is the range of seat height adjustability? I'm 5' 8" and am not super long of leg and don't want a 37" standover height or the like.
4) How do insurance companies handle insuring the Strada? Would I need any special documentation?
5) Do you have customers who have successfully registered Stradas for street use in NY state? Any special procedures or paperwork?
6) Are there any issues with obtaining financing for a bank for an electric motorcycle? Do they consider it equivalent to any other auto loan?

-Toshi Clark

this may prove to be the (New York) commuter bike v3...

8)

 

[swbluto]

Wow, that looks like a bike! I've heard that electric bicycles and scooters were illegal to use in either New York or NYC. Maybe that's changed? Or maybe you have plans of registering it as a moped?

So, how's been the commuting so far? The cold weather has made it a little different than usual, eh?

I was also wondering if you used the Burke-Gilman trail on a regular basis. If so, what times usually and how would you rate the crowded-ness and what's kind of like the "natural speed limit" during those times? I'm thinking about taking the trail to UW but I've heard reports of its matutinal crowdedness so I'm thinking the express bus(plus the 10 blocks to get the main campus) might be it for me.

Oh, yes, I've scored a residence in Shoreline and its distance from the main campus is about 8 miles, with the way the crow flies. Following the streets and the burke-gilman trail, it looks to be about 12-13 miles in total, or 36-39 minutes at 20mph average. The bus seems like it'd take about 35 minutes on average, including extra transportation and waiting times, so it seems the bus might be the ticket.

 

[Toshi]

swbluto, I'd register it as a full blown motorcycle. With a 45 mph+ top speed there's no other choice, and I can get my motorcycle certification back again easily enough (I held one a few years ago but let it lapse). I did ask the company whether there are any hitches to registering the beast in NY state so we shall see what they say.

I wouldn't plan on commuting from Shoreline daily on the bike. That's too far imo. The U-Pass (UW's bus pass -- $11/paycheck pretax for faculty/staff, $45/quarter? for students) along with the commuter/express buses is definitely the way to go provided it works with your schedule.

I don't commute on the Burke-Gilman this year as I'm coming from south of UW (in Capitol Hill, Bellevue Ave and Denny Way, not to be confused with the city of Bellevue, if you're hunting around on Google Maps). My commute this year is on city streets that are mostly pretty bike friendly but that have significantly more potholes and the like. I did commute from points northward on the Burke-Gilman for 3 years, however, at about 4-5 miles per leg and I'd routinely cruise along at 16-20 mph on my road bike on the flat. I'd pass most people but would also get passed. Doing 20-25 mph on an electric bike wouldn't be a problem traffic-wise with some common sense. I'd still rather take the bus if that were an option.

And with regard to cold weather it hasn't been a problem until the snow of this week. I had to be at the hospital around 4:30 on Friday morning and that commute absolutely sucked. I slid on my ass down Denny Way -- I couldn't even stand up straight or stop on my two feet, let alone on the bike. The rest of time I pecked along at a slow pace, fraught with fear. In the bike's defense the weather really has been exceptional, and the street I slid down has been closed to car traffic since Thursday due to being extremely hazardous. A parallel street that isn't closed but should be is the culprit that led two charter buses to nearly plunge 25 feet to I-5...

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/392969_bus20.html

 

[voicecoils]

Good luck getting the Quantya, then seem like an awesome bike.

Regarding standover height, might be worth thinking about the rear suspension sag too. I don't know how standover hight is measured for motocross bikes but they have long travel suspension and should sag quite a bit just sitting on them.

The sag might help to get your feet on the ground

 

[Toshi]

I'm having cold feet about commuting in the winter on a motorcycle in the Tri-state area...

In other news I logged my highest Wh/mile figure thus far today. It was REALLY windy. Supposedly the gusts were only up to 33 mph but they almost blew me over, and nearly blinded me when sand from last week's snow and ice was whipped up. Not cool. In any case, fighting the winds == 37.1 Wh/mile. Here's my efficiency over time:




Switching from a 35A immediate start to a 20A pedal first controller midway didn't really have an effect. It seems the weather, how tired I am, and the distance of the commute -- I have two different commute destinations -- have more to do with efficiency than other factors.

 

[Toshi]

today i wasn't too sleepy post-call so i journeyed to Soundspeed Scooters in Fremont to test rode a bunch of machinery and shoot the breeze with like-minded people. the staff and clientele at the shop are very similar to those of the ski shop in the neighborhood, evo, only they lace their conversations with "watts" and "amps". think ironic t-shirts, hats, and jeans.

:busted:

i rode the following:

Ultra Motor Europa
Ultra Motor A2B
EVT 4000e - lead-acid version as they don't have 4000e lithium demo models at the moment

the Europa has a geared Heinzmann hub at 36V. while it had some slick features, like a lockable battery cabinet on the downtube and a built in tab for the Heinzmann's torque arm it disappointed for several reasons:

- slow. very slow.
- whine from the geared hub motor
- really upright riding position and non-aggressive geometry
- did i mention slow? laggy throttle response, poor hill climbing ability (you'd think this would be good with a geared motor but it wasn't), and little top end

the A2B was much more entertaining. again, it seems very well put together, with the slick battery-in-downtube setup, a built-in torque arm, and provisions for an extra battery. my thoughts:

- it felt like a downhill bike with 20" wheels, very fun. although its cockpit was similarly high it had a totally different feel, and i was slaloming things, jumping off curbs, and trying futilely to bunnyhop it. (its rear hub motor weighs down the rear sufficiently that i couldn't loft it.)
- in a side to side race with my bike it completely smoked mine off the line, with much better torque from the 20" hub motor compared to mine in a 26" wheel. whereas it peters out at 20 mph however mine starts to come into its own around 18 mph and pulls until 24-26 mph. so it was like a squat bulldog charging off the line compared to my long-legged beast.
- the suspension felt pretty decent. rear end was undersprung and i bottomed it a few times but that's easily addressable.
- all in all a grin-inducing machine. i approve.

the EVT 4000e is a full-fledged scooter, albeit one that doesn't require a motorcycle license. its motor is limited to 1500W although it's supposedly capable of 3000W with overvolting or a different controller. the underseat compartment is supposed to be a good place to stash such an extra overvolting battery...

- top speed on the flat was 33-34 mph
- construction felt reasonably sturdy but cheap
- hill climbing and acceleration capability was marginal: i repeatedly ran into the controller's cutout warning when "flooring it" from low speeds and had to slow to ~15 mph to climb a 8% grade. this isn't really acceptable in my mind, but is supposed to be much better with the lithium versions (which have a higher C rating from the batteries besides being 100 lbs lighter).

 

[Toshi]

my ride is still my only way i can get to work when i have to be there earlier than the bus runs (ie, 90% of the time). it's been reliable enough that i actually sold my regular road bike.

energy usage:



stats:

Cumulative mileage: 713.198
Cumulative kWh hour usage: 18.756432
Price of electricity: $0.71
Price per mile: $0.000988844392721
Average Wh / mile: 25.27

 

[swbluto]

today i wasn't too sleepy post-call so i journeyed to Soundspeed Scooters in Fremont

Ahhh, d00000d! I was in the area riding the Burke Gilman just this last weekend! I should go there next time!(I actually got off the bus that goes down Aurora Ave., so I was only "kind of" in the area. I should journey backwards next time.) Hmmmm... maybe next Saturday.

(By the way, I found the max I can ride "pedaling" is like 13 miles before my legs just physically can't go on. I got upto Lake Forest Park and called it quits. I also learned that the Lake Forest Park library isn't open on Sunday, to my dismay.)

So, yeah, ummm... Hello neighbor. I should be getting my electric scooter stuff Monday, so my powerfully compact scooter might be up-running by next weekend! You'll likely to never see it in real life, but just in case you see some weird kid with a white and red safety taped-helmet and black-and-yellow striping on the back of his backpack, with flex coiling leading out of it, riding a pink scooter that has an audible whine, that's me! :lol: