Direct Drive #219 Pitch Monster Sprocket

liveforphysics said:
lQuite honestly, the whole process of CAD'ing my name, loading it in the lazyCAM, setting up the tool dimensions, and running the thing was pretty easy to stumble through for the first time, and now I think I could repeat all the steps and have it cutting out anyones name in maybe 10mins, counting the time to fix a block of something rather in the machine.

Tabbing is a feature that you deffinently want in a CAM application. It allows you to keep the pice your cutting held down by keeping it attached to the parent material. Another way of doing this is to use double stick carpet tape. CNCZone.com is a good forum for CNC stuff.

Bubba
 
dontsendbubbamail said:


Kburn77 gave me the heads up on carpet tape, and that is what is holding down my 2x4 scraps I'm practicing with right now. :) It's so amazing to watch it cut! But sadly, I've gotta get some sleep now so I'm not a zombie on my shift at work tonight.

Thanks for all the help everybody :) I can't wait to get through the newb stage and start making awesome stuff. :)


-Luke
 
Luke,
Definately the most smileys in one post award! :lol: glad to hear your cnc is working proper, that means you can spend all of your free time either making parts or broaching freewheels. :wink: What size end mills does your machine take? I have a few quality ones here I could send you, along with materials to make D and I some sprockets if that is cools with you.

Thud,
the go kart hub mounts are a good way to go, I was worried about the 44mm disk mount cracking the lexan too, but you could also add a plate of aluminum here to supplement the polycarbonate, right? On the subject of wear from grit, do you think adding some sort of epoxy to the teeth could at least slow this process? I will pm you to get those files, thanks.
 
Regarding grit & durability....I think you will find the same performance form either Lexan or Delrin. From my looking at the spec sheets, the delrin is a bit more durable & has the advantage at temprature extreams.

The only delrin parts I have ever had were some bumpers for old rc cars. I have used Lexan in several projects & am allways impressed with its screw holding capability. Any of the non traditional sprocket materials (even aluminum for that matter) are softer than the chain riding on it & will impregnate "grit" before the chain will. All my dirt bikes chains use UHMW polyethylene guides on the sprockets & they wear very well. I would be more concerned with ultraviolet damage (lexan) than exccesive chain wear. I can't think of any coating that would either- adhear to or add to the strength of the material.

It is still an untested comodity though. & untill I rebuild my home shop cnc (for rigidity over capacity) I would have to pay shop rates to get these done....you know what means.
 
etard said:
Luke,
Definately the most smileys in one post award! :lol: glad to hear your cnc is working proper, that means you can spend all of your free time either making parts or broaching freewheels. :wink: What size end mills does your machine take? I have a few quality ones here I could send you, along with materials to make D and I some sprockets if that is cools with you.

My machine has a 1/4" collet, and I'm looking for finding out what the best end mill and cutter speed and feed rate will be for cutting lexan. I played with the sheet I found that was with my lexan scraps, and it's not lexan, it's acrylic... and the acrylic seems to cut great for a while, then randomly melts itself onto the cutter, loads up the tool with a ring of acrylic and tries to burn/melt through the plastic rather than cut... :( But I was just using an 1/8" router bit while practicing, and lexan melts at a higher temp, so I'm thinking it will be easier.
 
Hey Luke my experience with lexan and acrylic is to cut pretty fast (70ipm) and at about .050" depth of cut and play with the speed of the router while it's cutting. Man, it's crazy you are already outgrowing the machine, never would have imagined you needing to cut a sprocket larger than 13", not much we can modify to make the x-axis longer either. Just let me know when you need a larger machine, lol. If you guys really need that large of a sprocket, I'll volunteer to use my 4'x8' cnc to cut a few, but I stay pretty busy and couldn't do a big production run. The 4th axis seems like it might help to cut larger diameters, good idea! Don't ever use carpet tape tho, it's super squishy and lets the part move around, been there done that, lol :)

The world of cnc is truly an amazing and gratifying endeavor, but it takes a while to learn all the cad and cam, but once you learn it and everything starts clicking you will be hooked for life! Luke is going to be fun to watch as he grows and starts using his imagination and creativity to make new and exciting projects. :D

If anyone is ever interested in one of these machines or looking for advice/parts, just pm me on here and I will try and give you a hand!

Kevin
 
I'm using that double sided CNC router tape you showed me on ebay, and it sticks and plants the parts much more solidly than I had expected.

I wouldn't say I'm out-growing the machine yet, lol. So far all I've done is write my name in a few objects. lol

I've been trying to test for backlash, and get an idea of runout, and it seems just the surface of the cut has a rougher texture than any backlash or runout I can measure. The tensioned belts thing seems to work a hell of a lot better than I ever thought it could work, I'm very happy you talked me into them. :)

If I made a jig, and cut a block of lexan to exactly 16"x16" that fits snug into the jig, couldn't I cut the area on both sides with in the bounds of my x-axis, then turn the block a 1/4 turn, re-run the same program, and the sprocket would be finished right?

sprocketcut.png
 
amberwolf said:
As long as the tooth count was such that a 90° rotation is identical and not offset. ;)

Good call Amberwolf :) I didn't even think of that. :) All that would require is having an even number of teeth, and clocking it to have XY symmetry. Shouldn't be a tough thing for a sprocket to have, but definately an important detail not to overlook. :) Thanks! :)
 
Maybe you could even offset it more to one side and cut one half of the sprocket and put in some "Lightening Holes" that could be used as "Indexing Holes" for lining up the sprocket to cut the other half. The indexing holes could be located on existing holes in the table that dowel pins could be placed in to set the sprocket on. It can be done and there's more than one way to skin a cat, lol :wink:
 
liveforphysics said:
Good call Amberwolf :) I didn't even think of that. :) All that would require is having an even number of teeth, and clocking it to have XY symmetry. Shouldn't be a tough thing for a sprocket to have, but definately an important detail not to overlook. :) Thanks! :)
I was pondering about why something about the idea sounded vaguely wrong, then I realized it would suck if you started to make that 165T sprocket that had been being discussed this way, turned it, and discovered the problem. :lol:

At first I thought--nah, of COURSE he'd think of that first, but after I closed the tab to the page I just had this niggling thing I HAD to undo close tab and post it, because Mr. Case gets invited almost everywhere I go. :)
 
Kburn77 said:
Maybe you could even offset it more to one side and cut one half of the sprocket and put in some "Lightening Holes" that could be used as "Indexing Holes" for lining up the sprocket to cut the other half. The indexing holes could be located on existing holes in the table that dowel pins could be placed in to set the sprocket on. It can be done and there's more than one way to skin a cat, lol :wink:

This sounds like a great idea. :) First cut the holes for a fixture with XY symetry. The set the sheet onto the fixture by it's center, machine it, rotate 90deg, machine it again, and it's a wrap. :)
 
For direct drive use a shim spacer or bore a 30mm sprocket hub to size of the freehub id OD and clamp it.
A 0 back lash freewheel approach. When you use a freehub driver such as a Sram Dual Drive or a single speed freehub driver, the larger the hub sprocket you use the more backlash of the the paws from the freehub will be effecting the amount of backlash and sprocket run out. The bicycle type of freewheels added to the freehub driver have more backlash than the freehub drivers plus a lot more run out that is multiplied by the OD of the large sprockets. The engagement from just the paws in the freehub can cause damage to them when speed shifting under loads from high torque motors above 2000 watts of power. The extra larger bang from a bicycle freewheel will usually take out the freewheel before the freehub paws but both can be damaged when over looking the clunk effects.
In going to a higher quality and and stronger parts than bicycle parts have to offer there is a cost effective way to mitigate the problems you will incur at some point.
It's not if but when! With a large chain sprocket the hub run out or a sprocket that does NOT wobble at all is very important to get the best efficiency of your drive train and have it last many years with minimal maintenance.
What may be helpful are parts to achieve this at a cost effective price. Depending if some parts can be modified or completely made to order from existing suppliers of these parts would need to be researched for cost.
The base parts would be a industrial 35mm CSK freewheel and shim to be press fit onto a freehub driver. The cost would be $25. for the freewheel plus the cost for a custom shim to be made and pressing it together. The next most important part is a $40. 50mm ID gokart type sprocket hub that can be bored to 70mm to fit the OD of the CSK freewheel/bearing OD for a clamp on fit. Research will need to be done to determine if the sprocket hub clamping bolts will be missed when boring from 50mm to the 70mm ID size required of the sprocket hub. The next thing to take into consideration is if you can take the hub width down to at least .75" by a mill or a lathe. Once a prototype is made a gokart sprocket hub manufacture would give a excellent price for making them in lots of 100 or so. About $40. each or less!
With a standard 6 hole gokart sprocket bolt pattern there many gokart sprocket companies that will make you any type of sprockets with many sprocket blanks to choose from. There is already a great slection of many #35 and #219 sprockets that work well for Ebikes. Rocket Sprockets could even make some large dia skip tooth 219 or #35 sprockets for your needs.
freewheel.jpg

50mmto70mmboresprocketh.jpg

skiptooth219.jpg

extronprosprocket.jpg
 
You know, Ebikes are a series of compramises. You want lightweight, but you want range. You want speed, but you want to pedal. You want stealth, but you want a sprocket the size of a wheel. :lol: That one was for you D. :mrgreen: Anyway, my point is that I keep running into the same compramise: the freewheel is not a viable option, even if the Enos are bombproof. Its a damn hassle. The better approach just might be a removable chain for pedaling home. That's why I am bolting my sprocket right where the disk brake goes. I'll just use rear Hydraulic rim brakes, front disk and be done with the whole freewheel these two, those that one over there, and oh yeah, the one right under Uranus!
 
The better approach just might be a removable chain for pedaling home

sram makes a chain that comes apart with no tools. http://commutebybike.com/2008/01/05/review-sram-power-link-chain/
I have one and it's very easy to take the chain off :mrgreen:
 
OK how about a clamp on sprocket hub to a NEW 3 speed direct drive hub to put on a smaller 219 sprocket since 1st and 2nd gear is lower than 3rd gear at a 1 to 1 ratio. If you ride on steep terrain a lot a direct drive with 3 speed down shifting regen keeping you at a nice speed without using brakes just may be much better than any freewheeling. Even then this direct drive hub has some backlash. Simple of often the best way to go. :p
Sturmey-Archer S3X 3-speed fixed gear hub
Product Information
3-speed fixed gear hub
160% gear range
1st gear 62.5%, 2nd gear 75%, 3rd gear 100% (direct drive)
Treaded driver accepts single speed freewheel or splined fixed gear sprocket

Detailed Specifications

Color: Silver
Weight: 980g
Intended Use: Urban
Hub Drilling: 36spokes
Rear Axle Type: 13/32 in.
Cassette Body Type: Shimano 1
Rear Hub Spacing: 120mm
Skewer Included: NA, Bolt-On

http://tinyurl.com/ydv8rur
 
:lol:
 
The instant double post should have been a clue.......
 
ENOs use a precision sealed radial bearing. The bearing is a press-fit in both sides. The runout matches the run out of a precision 40mm radial bearing, which is very low. Low enough out on a 16" sprocket you're going to see about 0.2mm.

Cheapo freewheels/freehubs, yes, you can find them as sloppy as you like, and with as poor of rachet design as you like.


Nobody on this forum, out of all the crazy guys doing all the crazy builds, has ever had an ENO fail.

However... needle type sprague clutch bearings on the other hand... loads and loads of failures, but personally, and all over this forum.
 
My 22T ENO's sealed bearing unit failed for the second time recently after only a few hundred klms, but this was in a freewheel crank setup that sees power transfer in a freewheeling state. Unfortunately the ENO's dont use a radial bearing on both sides of the ratchet/pawls, there is only one bearing taking up half the width of the casing, with the ratchet/pawls taking up the other.
In my case, the problem is that the driven and driving chainrings that are attached to the freewheel via an adapter plate are both alligned slightly laterally offset from the position of the bearing unit within the freewheel casing. This causes angular loading on the bearing which is really only designed for perpendicular/radial loading. This was a potential problem i envisaged when designing my custom freewheel cranks and it has come to light in practice. I got a few hundred Klm's off the first bearing and roughly the same out of the second one which i replaced recently. Dont get me wrong, in a locked state the ENO's are tough as nails but they are not an ideal option for freewheel cranks that see freewheeling power transfer as a jackshaft when the rider is not complimenting the motors power - which locks the pawls for better support of angular loading. For mounting ENOs on freehubs where the bearing only has to support the weight of the sprocket and chain whilst freewheeling you should not have a problem and they should be near indestructable.

The Ironic thing is that the design of cheaper freewheels is better for freewheeling cranks. They have two sets of loose ball bearings riding in case hardened races integral to the inner and outer sections of the freewheel, each on either side of centralised ratchet/pawls. This is a much better setup for angular loading but the problem is that being unsealed, they are more prone to getting dirt in them, they're not rebuildable, and the pawl count/quality/strength is lower than an ENO. What ever sort of one-way bearing or freewheel used with freewheel cranks, it has to support several hundred Nm of torque from the worst case abuse of a rider jumping/landing with their full weight on one crank arm. The ratchet and pawls within ENO's and other quality trials freewheels are much stronger in supporting this abuse which is above and beyond most freewheels design requirements which are only supporting the torque of human power at the rear wheel of a bicycle which is reduced significantly by the gearing up between chainring and freewheel sprocket tooth count at the rear wheel.

ENO outer casing showing ratchet and bearing retaining sections.
large_enoouter.jpg

ENOinternals.JPG


I know that Sickbikeparts sell their patented ENO 5-bolt flange freewheel as a "Heavy-Duty" upgrade option for freewheel cranks, but they have the same bearing/ratchet arrangement as any other ENO. I haven't heard of any other premature bearing failures reported on this forum from their intended use on freewheel cranks. I can only assume that most users are able to more optimally/centrally allign the driven and driving chainrings mounted to them, or are simply passing lower motor power through them in a freewheeling state. In my case i had dropout clearance issues so offset mounted chainrings were unavoidable.

Oh and being that ENO's only contain one deep groove radial bearing, I have found that the runout is significant, even with a fresh bearing. They have far more slop than a cheap dual bearing-race freewheel. I can wobble my 59T chainrings side to side by ~3mm at the radius when mounted on my ENO with a fresh bearing.
 
boostjuice,

Yes, nicely covered. We discussed this a while back, too - can't find the thread at the moment....(Mitch? :) ) You have the "worst case" set-up, for them :(
 
mmmmmmmmmmm.
i didn't have any issues with my 22t on the freeewheel crank but i didnt have the mileage boostjuice did.
Being as Etard and i are using the monster sprocket what would you say is the best way to mount such a monster? 16" diameter will be a hell of a load mounted directly onto the sickbikes eno -suggestions?


As a side question Miles, if i need 15-1 using the 165t, would i be right in thinking that i could reduce that to the 80t using a 2-1 reduction? im still not sure on which way to go at the mo as if i need to tension i may be better having the reduction in there somewhere to do both tensioning and reduction?
mmmmmmmmmm.damn ebikes.


D
 
Boostjuice- Wow! I think you're the first. That is definitely a worst case scenario setup!

In the application of being splined and used on the rear hub, the freewheel never transfers power while turning the bearing. :) If it's under load, it's locked up solid on the dogs, and the bearing as a speed of zero. When the bearing is getting used, the most load it feels is the weight of a sprocket on it. :)
 
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