DIY Newb FAQ?
- Thread starter E-HP
- Start date
Lectriceye
100 W
I am a newby and I like what you are proposing. It would be impossible to cover every situation a newby might run into, but there are probably a somewhat limited set of things every newby should know when embarking on an upgrade or build. My educatio on the subject of ebikes has come from an all consuming passion to read evrrything I can find on the subject on Google and more specifically EndlessSphere. I bought a factory made bike last November and it didn't take me long to realize I made a bad choice for the kind of riding I most enjoy, riding in the mountains. Now facing the choice of buy new again or upgrade. I made what I believe to be the most economical choice and decided to upgrade; but that required a lot of knowledge I didn't possess. Thus embarking on a crash program to learn what I needed to know. I started with Motors, understanding the diffences and benefits of of the different motors, Hubs (Geared, DD, Sq. Wave, sine wave, etc.) I have a strong electronic background and a passion to learn. Then onto Middrives, and controllers, etc. I learned a lot from the posts I could find here, but you never know what the background of the person is that is giving you advise, so a lot of it is trial and error. I can see where a compendium of " Best Practices" in certain critical areas would be helpfull. For example; are you a new rider who just want to get out and smell the roses, and putt arund the neighborhood at 10-15 mph for a 1/2 hour a day; are you a commuter, are you a delivery person, are you a mountain biker? all of these different uses can lead to different requirements. So I will only add to this by saying keep pushing the Idea and maybe more of us will listen and contribute.
tpkidd3
1 mW
Thank you for this post. We are with eBikes where the automobile industry was 100 years ago. There are 100s, if not 1000s, of brands. Until there are clear winners, and thus standards, a guide like your is invaluable sorting through the jungle of information.I think I've read through all of the stickies in the ebike forums, which provide great guidance. Yet, I see a lot a new folks getting into ebikes and posting questions that are not in the stickies, or are embedded somewhere among the existing stickies. Another observation is there are "graduating" ebikers that started with a simple kit and are moving on to another build from components, or are replacing components of their kits.
I'm wondering if there's a value to a DIY Newb FAQ, for both cases. I was thinking of a format like below. This is only showing the proposed format and some examples that may fit into it. Anyway, I thought maybe a Newb specific sticky might be helpful, and easy to find if titled that way. Is there an appetite here for something like this? I know all of this can be found with a search, but my other observation is that new folks don't use the tool as much, since you kind of need to know what to search for, or how to.
DIY Newb - General
The Parts of an Ebike System
Ebike Parts Explained - Getting Started
Here we give a brief summary of the key components that make up an ebike conversion and the role that they play. Some things like motors and batteries are probably familiar to everyone, while motor controllers, PAS sensors, etc. are less familiar but important to know about.ebikes.ca
Learn links Learn
Motor Concepts https://www.maxongroup.com/medias/sys_master/8798985748510.pdf
General:
You cannot build an ebike that can go 50 MPH with a 60 mile range for "$1000" If you have a donor bike, you expect to build one with some combination of 20mph to 27mph top speed and 20 to 30 miles of range, for that investment, and speed vs. range is a trade off if your budget is fixed.
Batteries:
If the deal is too good to be true, it is. A general rule, as of (Month/202#), for a pack made with name brand cell (Samsung/Sanyo/Panasonic/LG/Sony) $5 x the total number of cells in the pack is the minimum you should expect to pay. If the pack is made with generic Chinese "highest quality A grade cells", or similar description, you might expect to pay $3 x the total number.
Terminology: Most lithium ion packs use series of cells that make up the pack voltage; typically 36V, 48V, 52V, and 72V. Respectively, the number of corresponding series cells for those voltages are 10, 13, 14, and 20. The total pack capacity (amount of energy stored) is based on how many series groups are placed in parallel, and the capacity of each cell. Packs may be described by voltage and capacity (52V 15Ah) or by their component make up (for example 14S5P), which describes the number of series cells (14S) and the number of parallel group (5P). In the example below, lithium ion cells are used.
"S", combined with the voltage specs for the cells used, will determine the voltage of the pack. So, 14S means 14 series cells, and in this example, each with a nominal voltage of 3.7V; 14 x 3.7 = 51.8, or a 52 volt pack."P" is used to determine the current stored, and discharge capability of the pack. This again depends specs of the cells used (for example 3000mAh, with a discharge capability of 10A). So for a 5P pack, 3000mAh times the number of parallel groups (5 in this example); yields 5 x 3000 = 15000mAh or 15Ah stored. 5 x 10 = 50A discharge capability.So the example pack, using lithium ion cells, each with 3500mAh stored and 10A discharge capability, in a 14S5P configuration provides 15Ah with a 50A max output.
Notes on battery safety:
- Don't leave your bike charging while unattended. If you're leaving the house while charging, just set it on fire yourself when you leave, so you won't be surprised when you get home.
- Don't ignore/dismiss/condone odd battery behavior. Don't make assumptions about the cause. It almost always will lead to issues if not addressed.
- Don't assume charging will correct issues, other than balancing. Don't charge until the problem is properly diagnosed and corrected.
- A battery shouldn't be getting hot while discharging, unless you are discharging near or above the rated output. The battery should be taken out of service until diagnosed. It could lead to a fire while riding.
Balancing: Informative article on top vs. bottom balancingCell database: Cell Database
Torque Arms:
If you choose a direct drive motor, and the kit doesn't include a torque arm, you should purchase one (or two). Don't cheap out on torque arms, they must fit tightly to be of use; ideally an interference fit.
- Threads:
torque arm picture thread
Cross-posting these two threads so a search will turn up both: "Found an awesome torque arm" (3 pages) https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11570 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Original thread died. Figured I'd help out and repost what I saved. Here is the album link...endless-sphere.com
2018 Torque Arm Tests, Splined Interface Design and Tabbed Washers
In some sense this is a decades old follow up to our initial torque arm experiments from this thread https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=211356#p211356 The standard for imported ebike hubs back then was M12 or M14 axles that were ground flat to 10mm in order to use the dropout...C washers - Torque Arms - etc Vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUe3EVRIRPM&feature=youtu.be bUe3EVRIRPM- Links:
- Torque Arms on Hub Motor Bikes
Grin makes high quality front and rear torque arms" Yes very good ones; here is their info page.
Torque Arms - Grin Products - Product Info
For every force there is an equal and opposite force, and for every torque there is an equal and opposite torque. Sadly with import hub motors this opposing torque is often born entirely by bicycle dropouts that are not up to the task, allowing the motor axle to spin out. Grin has pioneered the...
How far, how fast, etc.:
eBike Lighting?
- The Grin Motor Simulator is a great tool for determining how an ebike will perform based on the criteria entered; read of the instructions and start playing
- Trip Simulator - Change the Input at the top left of graph to Google Maps and right click your start point and end point then move the route line to your desired route by dragging the line holding the left mouse button down.
List of controllers with lighting functions
- Very few aftermarket controller can fully support ebike lighting
- Plan on challenges if upgrading a controller on a factory ebike with integrated lighting
- KT controllers. Some have a lighting function that is controlled via the button pad. The output of the lighting connector is not sufficient to drive lights, but is sufficient for powering a relay to turn on the light. The output is limited to 70mA
......
...
Buy or Build?
Looking for an ebike conversion and not sure where to start?Kits Vs Turnkey
DIY Newb - Kit builder (all components were purchased as part of a kit, battery may be purchased separately)
Tools:
Required: Hand tools for installation;Optional/recommended (useful for troubleshooting): Digital Multimeter (DMM).........
DIY Newb - Component builder/upgrader (some or all components were not purchased as part of a kit)
Tools:
Required: Hand tools for installation; Digital Multimeter (DMM); soldering iron and/or crimpers; some installations may require connectors, heat shrink tubing, electrical tape, etc.Optional: motor tester
Displays:
Displays from different brands are not usually compatible. Displays that are the same brand as a controller don't guaranty compatibility, due to firmware variations, so purchasing the controller with the display will provide better assurance of compatibility. Some display manufacturers can support different controller brands, provided they are flashed with compatible firmware.
Common displays and associated controller manufacturer (actual compatibility may be dictated by firmware):
- DC MOTO CONTROLLERBYLITHIUMBATTERY/JN SW900, S700, S800, S830, S866, S886, S890, S900, GD06, OMT-M3
- Lishui SW900, C500B-LCD, KD21C, KD51C, KD59E, KD716, KD718
- XLD (XunLiDa Electronics) BrainPower S866, S869, S886, M5, M6T, LH100
- Kunteng "KT" LCD3, LCD4, LCD5, LCD7, LCD8H, LCD8S, LCD9, LCD10H, LED880, LED900S
- Bafang C961, 500C, 750C, 800S, 860C, DPC-07, DPC-18
- Tongsheng TSDZ2 VLCD5
- S810A, S810B1, S810B2, S810B3 (Nanjing,,,,)
Displays and/or Controllers supported by Open Source Firmware (custom/enhanced firmware developed by the user community):Controllers -Displays -KT LCD3 used in conjunction with TSDZ2 mid drive*VLCD5, VLCD6, XH18, LCD3, 860C, 850C, SW102 used in conjunction with TSDZ2 mid drive**Torque sensing PAS support
CT-22 (speedometer, odometer, voltage, and status display)
Cycle Analyst, computer and dashboard*:Cycle Analysts - Ebike Parts - Shop
The <a href="/product-info/grin-products/cycle-analyst-3.html">Cycle Analyst</a> is much more than just an old-looking display and is the central control feature for most of our advanced kits. With some custom throttle wiring you can also use it (via the Stand Alone or High Current models) to...*Torque sensing PAS support
PAS:
Pedal assist sensors fall into two general categories, cadence based PAS and torque sensing PAS. Note that in order to implement PAS, other components, such as the controller must also support the PAS function and interface with the pedal assist sensing unit.
Cadence: Cadence PAS can operate in a couple modes, depending on how is supported by the controller. Simple cadence PAS can provide assist when the pedals are turning forward, regardless of how fast the pedaling is. To control the amount of assist, the controller may have control buttons to select a fixed level of assist, by PAS level. Cadence PAS may also operate in a manner the changes assist based on how fast the pedaling is, again, based on what is supported by the controller.Torque: Torque sensing PAS operates based on pedaling effort. The amount of pressure applied to the pedals will determine the amount of assist provided. Pedaling harder increases assist. The controller used for torque sensing PAS may also have PAS levels, similar to cadence PAS, that adjust the overall assist level, but the amount of assist at any given level is still determined by pedal pressure. Some torque sensing PAS units also support cadence sensing to further adjust assistance based on the cadence.PAS controllers:Not all controller support PAS, but ones that do usually support cadence PAS, which is common with budget controllers. PAS support will usually be described in the controller's documentation or on its label.Torque sensing PAS controllers:Controllers supporting torque sensing PAS are less common, and usually more expensive. Below is a non-exhaustive list of controllers that natively support torque sensing PAS*:
- Grin Phaserunner, Baserunner controllers
- Grin cycle analyst computer/display (used with any controller with a throttle input)
- Some models of KT controllers, however these may not be currently available. B. B. Torque Sensor System (link provided by member stancecoke)
- Some Lishui controllers
- Some controllers that normally don't support PAS, or only support cadence, can support torque sensing PAS when the controller or display is flashed with open source firmware. Some KT controllers and Lishui controller fit under this category.
* Cadence and/or torque sensing, can also be supported by some peripheral components, such as the Grin Cycle Analyst (see above), that will process the PAS signal prior to passing it through to a non-PAS supporting controller.Controllers and Controller Resources:
Kunteng- Imitation Torque Controller--Suzhou Kunteng Electronics Co.,Ltd--Suzhou Kunteng Electronics Co.,LtdBafang - OEM AreaBBS## programing and resources - Bafang Programming - Learn how to improve your Bafang mid-drive ebike - EdrivenetSabvoton/MQCON - MQCON-e bike controller supplierFor Sabvoton sine wave motor controller users
Hi everyone, As there is already many friends who are using a sabvoton motor controller,this thread is started to explaining about the parameters in the software,it may help you do the parameter adjustment easier. If you have some confusion about our controller,software,pls keep me informed...Votol -http://votol.net/en-us/controller.htmNanjing Fardriver - far-driverXLD Brainpower -DC MOTO CONTROLLERBYLITHIUMBATTERY/JN -
Wiring:
There are no wiring standards or wire color coding standards. If you are building from components, you cannot count on things working, just because you matched the wire colors on the connectors between devices. Use your DMM and realize that touching the wrong combination of wires can destroy electronics, instantaneously.
Common (not standard) controller connector wiring:Throttle: 3 conductors - GND, 5V, signalSome throttle units have other functions like controller on/off or voltage displays, so those throttles will have 2 or 3 additional conductors, in addition to the three used for throttle.PAS (cadence): 3 conductors - GND, 5V, signal. Some systems (e.g. Grin), use a higher voltage inputMotor Phase: 3 large conductors. usually Blue, Yellow, GreenMotor Hall Sensor: 5 thin conductors. usually Blue, Yellow, Green (phase hall sensors), Red, Black (5V and GND powering hall sensors). If a sixth wire is present, usually White, it may be used for a speed sensor or temperature sensor (see motor specs).Battery Power: 2 large conductors. usually Red (battery positive), Black (battery negative)Brake (cutoff) switches (low brake):
- 2 conductors for most generic Chinese controllers: N.O. switch (normally open when lever is not engaged) on the brake side connector; GND and signal (~5V via pull up resistor) on the controller side connector
- 3 conductors: GND, signal (~5V), 5V. The 5V may or may not be used, but could provide power to a hall sensor, for variable braking/regen for instance.
Brake switches (high brake): to be addedDisplay wiring, single wire: to be added...Self-learning: Usually two single wire connectors (male and female JST, often white), when connected runs an autotuning routine to determine the correct hall and phase wire combination. Once set, the wires are disconnected for normal operation. Note that in some cases, the self-learning routine may also set the battery voltage level for controllers that support more than one input voltage.Anti-theft:Wire Gauge Current Limits:American Wire Gauge Chart and AWG Electrical Current Load Limits table with ampacities, wire sizes, skin depth frequencies and wire breaking strength
AWG Wire size chart and ampacity table for design engineers including skin depth frequencies and tensile strength data; electrical cable sizewww.powerstream.comConnector References:Connectors - Learn
There are lots and lots of connector types used in the ebike industry, so many that it would be a very tall order to try and list them all. In our business, we focus just on aftermarket conversion kits and have tried to keep the connector styles down to a well chosen minimal set. This page...
DIY Garage; Connectors for Halls, Throttle, and Motor
Experienced builders have preferences for every part of their hot rod ebike, but…if you are new and you just want some advice on how to get started with components that work well enough, and …www.electricbike.com
Motors and Motor Resources (work in progress)
Hub motorsDirect DrivexxxxGeared DrivexxxxLocked geared drivexxxxMid drive motors (DIY)BafangBBS##Tong ShengTSDZ2CYCX1 ProX1 StealthPhotonCustom/kit/miscStokemonkeyTesting, Tuning, and Troubleshooting Resources:
Testing guides by Tommycat -...Wheel Building:
Spoke Calculator - Online Spoke Calculator for Hubmotors and EbikesBuy & Build?
DIY factory bike modder (work in progress)
Chinglish to English Translations (work in progress)
- Electric Key Lock/Key Switch/Electric Door Lock/Ignition/Power Lock : Controller on/off; usually applying battery level voltage to the signal wire turns on the controller (frequently a thin orange conductor).
- 3 Position Switch/3 Speed Switch/3 Grade Switch/ : Controls 3 power or speed levels of the controller; the middle position is default
- Lack Voltage : Low voltage cutoff
- Learning/Self-study/Self-learning/Automatic Detection/Auto Learn : Jumper to enable automatic detection of motor hall/phase combination
- Throttle/Speed Governor/Accelerator/Turn Handle/ : Throttle Input
Change Log:
05-03-21 - added general statement to General section and wiring to Component section. changed formatting, added torque arm links
05-27-21 - added 99t4 and markz contributions
07-01-22 - added links to Grin torque arm page
01/17-23 - added ebike lighting section
01-23-23 - added precautions with regards to batteries
03-19-23 - added link to motor concepts (provided by stancecoke on separate thread); started display model to manufacturer list
09-16-23 - added hyperlinks to display manuals
01-09-24 - added section on open source firmware
01-27-24 - added Chinglish to English translations section
02-09-24 - added self-learning notes in wiring section
02-18-24 - added Wire Gauge current limit link from slaphappygamer, TommyCat testing guides
07-31-24 - added Cycle Analyst section, and Cycle Analyst 3.15b6 - Settings Summary provided by slaphappygamer
08-05-24 - added framework for Motors section. added link to q factor post related to BBSHD by ebike4healthandfitness
10-15-24 - added link to battery cell database provided by Diggs
Last observation: Most of the stickies appear to be threads that are made into stickies, so the information is scattered within the threads. It would be nice if when information is added by folks, that at the end the mods could consolidate into the main sections for easy access.
EDIT: Thinking about how a lot of members use translators when accessing the site, paragraphs probably don't work as well. I'm not sure, I don't use them much. Bullets are probably easier to understand.
BTW, this, itself, isn't actually correcting anything. It's just making all the cellls the same voltage.
The problem that caused the imbalance is still there, and will only grow worse with time.
IMbalance is caused by:
--differences in cell properties (intneral resistance, capacity, etc); this is the most common quality of most non-large-EV battery packs--not being made of matched, identical, cells. ****
--interconnect faults between cells in the same parallel group, so that the different series groups have different total properties. This is usually from poorly-assembled packs, or physically damaged ones from crashes, drops, etc.
****matching is a time consuiming and wasteful process, since it will eliminate a lot of cells from being able to be used with each other. If it's done by cell manufacturers they can "bin" them as lots are tested, so that very similar properties are boxed together...but the ones that most pack builders use are not all that similar, and builders don't generally do any testing to match the cellls. To make a single matched 100-cell pack from "random" cells could take thousands or tens of thousands of cells to find ones that are close enough to call identical. DIYers can't do it; it's prohibitively expensive even if they had the time and good enough equipment to provide reliable results. Pack building manufactruers won't do it because it's not their problem, theyd on't understand how stuff works, they don't care if the pack works for a long time cuz they'll just sell you another one, it costs too much labor, and equipment and cells, etc.
So balancing BMSes get used to cover for mismatced cells.
And...that's why cheap packs without a balanicng BMS don't last verylong; the mismatched cells will become rapidly unbalanced with use, and the usable pack capacity drops with every charge cycle.
The only way to actually fix an imbalanced pack is to replace *all* of the cells with matched, identical cells.
Low-and-Slow
10 mW
As much as I love this forum, sometimes just finding the start of the info is a pain. I usually am not in a hurry and have been able to find what I need eventually, but an easier filing / info system for us older, tech illiterate newbs is a welcome addition.
thanks to the mods and members for all the effort they have put into it.
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