Do cyclone motors really eat up gears?

Desertprep

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I was just reading websites and posts on this forum and found several hints that installing a cyclone electric motor on a bicycle causes the gears to wear out quickly. Is this true? Is this just because of the extra force? or possibly people not using them correctly, i.e. accelerating while changing gears?

For those of you who do have a cyclone with gears, do you find that using the gears gives you more range or a higher top speed? I am still trying to make the decision of hub motor vs. non hub. What are your opinions?
 
pengyou said:
For those of you who do have a cyclone with gears, do you find that using the gears gives you more range or a higher top speed? I am still trying to make the decision of hub motor vs. non hub. What are your opinions?

Hi pengyou. I have an Elation kit, which (so I understand) is essentially a modified (and hopefully impoved) version of the cyclone.

I have the Australian 'Legal 200W' version. I can't advise you on whether it wears your gears out. My bike has been ridden to work and from everyday for about 5 months now with no problems and I've got it fitted to a very cheap Hybrid bike. I have read this is an issue with the cyclones - perhaps the Elation has improvements that overcomes this, or perhaps it's the lower power?

Regarding the range/top speed issue - I think I can comment on this as the principle of the cyclone v Elation is much the same.

I find the main advantage of being able to use all your gears is on hills. Particularly with the relatively lower power of the 'Legal 200W' version. I can keep the motor at an efficient speed by changing down onto the middle front cog (the Elation keeps all three cogs at the front). I've not needed the bottom front cog, except once when the battery went flat (and that was no fun at all).

On the flat I easily reach a speed where I can't pedal any faster, so my gearing is the main limitation in this regard. I can do this without the motor, but of course is much easier with the motor. The motor alone won't reach this speed on the flat, but it can with a slight downhill.

I think in theory using the gears should improve range as the motor is running more efficiently.

I hope this helps. Please note I have very little experience with hub motors (or ebikes generally), so I can't give a direct comparison but I strongly believe that at the lower power levels the chain drive (to the front cogs) is the superior approach if you have any sort of hills to ride on.

:)
 
I dont' use the cyclone but I use a similar thru-the-gears middrive setup, with a powerchair motor, on a very heavy 150lb bike. The torque on mine is sufficient to damage gears if I forget to shift down before I stop, and am in the highest gears on the rear cassette. There aren't enough teeth on the smaller ones to keep the chain from simply riding right up over the teeth, so it does so and quickly rounds the tips of them off. The highest I've measured is well over 1500W into the motor at those times, and once over 3kW for an instant when a chain derailed and tangled up just before the controller popped.

Of course, if I could push as hard as a powerful rider can, I could do the same thing with my legs. :) It's just easier to do instantly with no effort on my part with the motor. ;)

Now, I could easily imagine that the cyclone and similar BB drives could go thru cheap freewheels quickly, as the palls on those can break fairly easily--even average human power can do it in the right conditions.

I guess it depends on usage conditions, and the quality of the stuff on the bike and the stuff in the cyclone kit, as to whether it will wear it faster than usual.
 
In regards to the planetary gears rather than gear sprockets...

From the reports of stripped planetary gears ive seen on ES over the last couple of years, the common trait seems to be running the motor at 48V. The manufacturer's sticker slapped on the side of both the integrated and external controller motors state a 24V rating. The 48V controllers deliver more peak current (torque) than the lower voltage counterparts so logic suggests the gears are simply being loaded past their rating. Cyclone sell more of the 48V/1200W kits than the 24V/650W kits so they probably knowingly sell the higher powered kits with a high failure rate simply to make more sales. If Cyclone had a low failure rate business model and as a result their most powerful planetary motor kit was 24V/650W then i could see many shoppers going with a cheap 1000W hub motor kits instead, regardless of the lack of gearing.

24V, and probably even 36V should give the planet gears decent mileage......
 
it will certainly wear off the sporket teeth especially the 14t, or 16t. 100%, when you going very fast speed like 55km/h the feeling is very wonderful, and the other hand it is eating your sporket, please get it REady to change them. when you run the ebike say 900watts or 1200watts, you can actually feel it, like slip gears !! later you will check it out what's wrong. ? then you see your sporket teeth... the wear off is obviously can been seen. my suggestion try to stay 24t at least or more teeth, that will protect the sporket to wear off so unsual. the power of the troque is 8times or 10 times of legs power, sure it wear off. it is the same like motorcycle, sporket need to replace every year or 2. Going for cyclone kit, is just having a bit more maintance on the gearing system, check your chain is flexiable... staying 24t and the rear wheel, you can see very little wear off. As for the plantary gears, after my 5100km run. the are good as new, maybe i didn't run too hard. they are tough for me.!! seriously. the only worry is the controller...

i have totally switch to hub motor becasue...im too frighten on the failure on my controller." half way of your trip and come back pushing your bike for 8km" - very sweat , hee hee. going a hub motor is no a mistake for sure. simple+ no need to worry gears or chain. they are Made to run worry Free.. hee.. Best bang for bucks$$ half price from Conhismotor 1000watts + shipping to your door steps - v good price. troque lower is okay for me. run the bike full throttle, without seeing the gearing or sporket. i can say almost 99% of ebiker in my country choose hub motor..

cheers
kentlim
 
I have never owned a Cyclone/Elation BB-drive, but...

I suspect that much of the problem is that the controllers have no way to ramp up the amps in a more gradual profile. Perhaps someone will design a throttle "buffer" that can be turned on or off. And when its on, you can accidentally slam the throttle full-power, but the bike will accelerate gently to full power. It could be turned off when you actually want brisk power application.

There is also a difference is the quality of the various steels used in gear clusters. An inexpensive bike intended for a low-cost bike that is rarely ridden would use a more affordable steel for the gears, and they would wear out faster under all conditions.

More power allows you to haul more weight and climb steeper hills at a higher speed, but I suspect the gear-wear issue is more related to shock-loads.
 
My planetary gears are currently out of commission on my cyclone again. I have always run it at 36v. I went 2000 miles before I had to replace the planetary gears, but the second set didn't last so long (around 500 mi.) I too have gone to hub motors for the simpler maintenance, but will either repair or replace the cyclone as i like using it. If you keep it at 24v which is what the original motor was designed for you can get a good amount of speed and run a smaller voltage (cheaper) battery. I think if you run the gears properly just like driving a manual car you most surely can get more ah/miles. The cons are lot's of chain maintenance and alignment. The pros are you can get more speed and better climbing ability by using the gears. You will have to replace the freewheel eventually as it wears quickly, but if you buy one from sickbike parts it will last a lot longer. :) :)
 
hi dear friends,

hub motor like conshimotor of 1000watts vs... cyclone 900watts. this hub motor wins cyclone in one thing, which all of us will forget.. Watter per kilometers. conhis per Kilometers, i will used 9.79wh/ km~11.17wh/ km, running 40km/h ~ 50km/h the other hand, from Cyclone kit.. i saw a user wrote, 18wh/ km . That is almost double consumation. seriously it is too hard to beat watts per km. 'if you a rider who like go for more long range/ distance" using the same battery. today i had a test on my friend hub motor ebike, i put on my turnigy meter.. 500watts and i am running 40km/h, i saw his max wh/ km is 14.55. , lowest can get 6.65wh/ km. my data is not just assuming.. they are tested and real. i got to do more test on my conhismotor, it is hard for me to believe im seeing not more then 12watts per km, becos it is abit strange to see my friend ebike 500watts motor/ "Bought from cammy ebay" , it uses 14.55watts per km on full throttle.. i run for 2km. i stop and do calculation.

also do some consideration for watts per km. the least watts for best speed and km is certainly no doubt best motor. Is there any motor to take in less then 7wh/ km and capable to run 35km/h ? im hope to find one and buy one more hub.

28/july/2010 , i made a hard throttle 98% full throttle test. i got the number. 15.46watts per km. 3/4 is 12.88wh/ km , for 3/4 throttle i can get speed 38km/h ~ 42km/h


cheers
kentlim

im made some embarrass watts, watts hour. it should be correct as wh/ km
 
watts per kilometer.... :shock: I thought watt hours were the important measurement when
working out different rides efficiency? I missed a memo it seems :lol:

KiM
 
yes, Wh/ km at times can be important. however for a short ride under 10km will be okay. if you are going for 40km range, i think it makes alot of different for a full throttle for 48v 12a. it can't reach the destination without pedalling. If cyclone 900watts really needs 18wh/ km, for 40km it will needs at least 720watts from your battery. if the bike is taking only 11watts hour/ per kilometers require 440watts Only. for short range under 10km ride, no need big 15hr battery. not really stingy with electric, just ensure smaller batteries can reached the destination and back home happily. i went to weigh my cyclone kit.. for 3 items, motor+ controller+ 3piece crank weighs only 5.4kg. i think cyclone kit is alot lighter!

if you going for real troque power. under 4 secs, Cyclone 900watts or 1200watts can easily Clock 40km/h for you. it can easily match any vehicles on the road, especially cars or even motorcycle for short range 30meters. however this hub motor don't have this, it will needs at least 8seconds to do 40km/h. (my motor is conhismotor 1000watts 48V). however if you are looking for reliable kit.. hub will win this time. myself is looking for range and a normal regular ebike rider content with speed about 50km/h.. a just nice speed.

i hope it help you to consider which kit is best. do you have any buget to consider ?

cheers
kentlim

i have some correction watts, and watts - hours. :oops: my data is all real test.
 
If cyclone 900watts really needs 18watts per km, for 40km it will needs at least 720watts from your battery.

I think you've totally confused watt-hours and watts...

If you only use 18 watts per km then you're pedaling like crazy and you may as well remove the motor. :roll:
 
sorry.. i think i made a mistake. :oops: :oops:

i calculate like that, total watts saw in my turnigy meter 387.5wh, total range from my speedometer i see is 35.96km, then i use 387.5wh/ divide 35.96km = i got 10.77watts right? . i just finding out per km how many watts i will used for 1km. i think it should be like this .. 10.77wh/ km.

please help me, i think i am abit confusing. :oops: :oops:

kentlim
 
REdiculous said:
If cyclone 900watts really needs 18watts per km, for 40km it will needs at least 720watts from your battery.

I think you've totally confused watt-hours and watts...:

I think your right... :lol:

Your cyclone has the potential if ridden correctly i.e right gear for the speed your doing to get the most efficient
use of power to be more efficient than the frock motor. You must compare Wh used when comparing different e-bikes
efficiencies, i really can't see what this watt per kilometre business your talkin about is and/or why you think
its important...My bike up on the stand spinning the rear wheel over uses more than 18watts, what does this mean
in relation to your bikes...nothing. The number of of Wh i would use over a given distance is what you would compare
to your bikes.

KiM
 
yes, i feel hub motor is more efficency then a cyclone type. 1000watts motor works well with normal pack of lifepo4 battery 2C. cyclone 900watts is taking for ampers, it needs 5c battery pack. if using ebay pack of lifepo4 48a 12a battery will not match. Lets say if you going for long range riding distance of 50km and you need speed average 45km/h, so you have to build some battery to gives that range and power. if you going to ride only 3 or 5km range,, any small battery will do, Sla can do that tasks, no need to spend more lifepo4.

so deciding a hub motor or cyclone, what is your range + speed preferred + ? do you have any buget for battery lifepo4 cost ? i wonder what is your cost for building a new ebike ? wh/ km is another thing if a rider prefer to choose the small size battery and the cheapest build to get the best range+ speed also. sorry my dear friend, calculation was my part of my hobby, make your ebike really worth/ value the dollar you paying.

if your battery is 48v 12a, total desity is 576watts right? for 18wh/km (if) = 500watts/ 18 = 27km range. got to get ready to pedal after 27km... :wink: :wink:


cheers.
kentlim
 
if your battery is 48v 12a, total desity is 576watts right?

No, that's 576 watt-hours if your math is right. :)

edit; 576 watt-hours is equal to 2,073,600 watts...

If you really want to use watts/km, you can, but the numbers should look a lot different. If you use 20 watt-hours/km then you could also say that's 72,000 watts/km. :D :wink:
 
Efficiency frock vs a gear drive like cyclone is mostly in how you use it. The more you go up in down in speed, the more efficient a gear drive motor is going to be vs a hub drive. Gears= more loss =lower peak efficiency. However Gears also = peak efficiency over a wider speed range.


Back to the original question, my cyclone is eating my rear cassette. My 11t sprocket looks more like the teeth on a saw with one edge vertical and the other about a 45 degree angle than a normal gear. I don't think it has to as much with power in my case (only 360w) as the fact that I shift it at full throttle. I think these types of systems are much better suited to a IGH. Especially on a folding bike like mine with an already short chainline. With the cyclone on it, the chain line is insane.
 
geekybiker said:
...my cyclone is eating my rear cassette. My 11t sprocket looks more like the teeth on a saw with one edge vertical and the other about a 45 degree angle than a normal gear. I don't think it has to as much with power in my case (only 360w) as the fact that I shift it at full throttle. I think these types of systems are much better suited to a IGH. Especially on a folding bike like mine with an already short chainline. With the cyclone on it, the chain line is insane.

I manage to get ~3000km before excessive wear on my lower tooth count sprockets suggest replacement of my 9spd cassette cluster (Custom chainring drive setup using Cyclone "1500W" motor).

For my setup under full continuous power, my calculations suggest about ~60Nm of torque is being placed on the 11T sprocket teeth, ranging to ~185Nm of torque on my 34T sprocket teeth. So even though this might suggest that the larger cluster sprockets would wear first, the fact is i spend most of the time in higher gear (smaller rear sprocket) and this combined with less teeth to handle the load means they wear the fastest - just like most non-electric on-road bicycles, but on a faster timescale.

Drivetrain theory suggests much if not most of this wear is due to chain stretch to which sprocket teeth wear rapidly to match. For this reason i monitor my chain stretch with a linear measuring chain checker tool (Park Tool CC-2) and replace my chain at the 0.75% mark to give my cluster longer life. This seems to work out about every ~500km . Three chains cost about the same as one cluster so it is cheaper for me to follow this approach, although it is still annoyingly expensive.

To increase the lifespan of your sprockets i suggest you also monitor and replace your chain quite regularly if you have not been doing so. I dont think that shifting under load will directly wear your sprockets any faster, rather it will stretch your chain faster and increase the chance of bent links, which in turn will wear your sprockets faster. Also, keep in mind that the angled leading teeth of the sprockets you mention is apparent to some extent on BRAND NEW sprockets. This teeth form profile is an attribute of modern Hyperglide cassettes and is used to aid smooth shifting. From what i have noticed, It seems to be more apparent on the lower tooth count sprockets within the cassette cluster. Make sure your not confusing this feature as part of normal wear.

As you said IGH is ideal as it allows the use of beefy 1/8" BMX chain with non-tapered link pins which extends chain life enormously with a dead straight chainline.
however.... few IGHs can take the torque of electric drive. The Rohloff is well suited due to its off-road/Tandem rating, 526% gear range, however they themselves cost as much as a decent bike. There is a small community of MTB riders who have reported success in using the Alfine 8spd in an overgeared configuration for offroad use (a lower chainring:rear sprocket ratio than Shimano recommends = higher torque on the epicyclic gears), so that in itself is placing torque loadings on the hub approaching that of electric power when using manufacturer redcommended chain gearing for on-road use.

The SRAM i-motion9, and Sturmey Archer 8 speeds are not much good. Apart from having clunky shifting and being noisy in some gears they have reports of high failure rates from human power alone.

Although strong and beefy, the Nuvinci IMHO is just too heavy, let alone on a rear sprung offroader.

For my new Non-frock project bike I myself are hanging out for the Alfine 11 speed hub with 409% range. The proven pedigree of the Alfine 8spd being overloaded combined with rumours that the new version may well be spec'd for XC riding means it is shaping up to be a good option for electric assist. Greater gear range, oil bath lubrication and helical gears are a promising improvements over the Alfine 8spd, but still it'll be About half the price of a Rohloff..... i'll still take the plunge though.

I have a cunning plan :D to combine motor power and pedal power at the hub's input despite the limited room for two sprockets. No room for even one freewheel though, so freewheel cranks and and a freewheel jackshaft are still required just like a chainring driven system :( .
 
spinningmagnets said:
I have never owned a Cyclone/Elation BB-drive, but...

I suspect that much of the problem is that the controllers have no way to ramp up the amps in a more gradual profile. Perhaps someone will design a throttle "buffer" that can be turned on or off. And when its on, you can accidentally slam the throttle full-power, but the bike will accelerate gently to full power. It could be turned off when you actually want brisk power application....

SpinningMags,
There is a way to ramp up the current more slowly, and that is to turn the throttle gradually. Justin even demonstrated that way leads to greater efficiency too, because the motor is at a higher point in it's efficiency curve since the effective voltage the motor sees is lower at any given point compared to just jamming it to full throttle. I don't think the difference is tremendous, but it is a difference.
 
boostjuice said:
For my setup under full continuous power, my calculations suggest about ~60Nm of torque is being placed on the 11T sprocket teeth, ranging to ~185Nm of torque on my 34T sprocket teeth. So even though this might suggest that the larger cluster sprockets would wear first, the fact is i spend most of the time in higher gear (smaller rear sprocket) and this combined with less teeth to handle the load means they wear the fastest - just like most non-electric on road bicycles, but on a faster timescale.

Drivetrain theory suggests much if not most of this wear is due to chain stretch to which sprocket teeth wear rapidly to match. For this reason i monitor my chain stretch with a linear measuring chain checker tool (Park Tool CC-2) and replace my chain at the 0.75% mark to give my cluster longer life. This seems to work out about every ~500km . Three chains cost about the same as one cluster so it is cheaper for me to follow this approach, although it is still annoyingly expensive.

To increase the lifespan of your sprockets i suggest you also monitor and replace your chain quite regularly if you have not been doing so. I dont think that shifting under load will directly wear your sprockets any faster, rather it will stretch your chain faster and increase the chance of bent links, which in turn will wear your sprockets faster. Also, keep in mind that the angled leading teeth of the sprockets you mention is apparent to some extent on BRAND NEW sprockets. This teeth form profile is an attribute of modern Hyperglide cassettes and is used to aid smooth shifting. From what i have noticed, It seems to be more apparent on the lower tooth count sprockets within the cassette cluster. Make sure your not confusing this feature as part of normal wear.

As you said IGH is ideal as it allows the use of beefy 1/8" BMX chain with non-tapered link pins which extends chain life enormously with a dead straight chainline.
however.... few IGHs can take the torque of electric drive. The Rohloff is well suited due to its off-road/Tandem rating, 526% gear range, however they themselves cost as much as a decent bike. There is a small community of MTB riders who have reported success in using the Alfine 8spd in an overgeared configuration for offroad use (a lower chainring:rear sprocket ratio than Shimano recommends = higher torque on the epicyclic gears), so that in itself is placing torque loadings on the hub approaching that of electric power when using manufacturer redcommended chain gearing for on-road use.

The SRAM i-motion9, and Sturmey Archer 8 speeds are not much good. Apart from having clunky shifting and being noisy in some gears they have reports of high failure rates from human power alone.

Although strong and beefy, the Nuvinci IMHO is just too heavy, let alone on a rear sprung offroader.

For my new Non-frock project bike I myself are hanging out for the Alfine 11 speed hub with 409% range. The proven pedigree of the Alfine 8spd being overloaded combined with rumours that the new version may well be spec'd for XC riding means it is shaping up to be a good option for electric assist. Greater gear range, oil bath lubrication and helical gears are a promising improvements over the Alfine 8spd, but still it'll be About half the price of a Rohloff..... i'll still take the plunge though.

I have a cunning plan :D to combine motor power and pedal power at the hub's input despite the limited room for two sprockets. No room for even one freewheel though, so freewheel cranks and and a freewheel jackshaft are still required just like a chainring driven system :( .

My bike didn't exactly come with top shelf components to start. The plan is replace the 7spd cassette with a SA 3spd IGH. I need 14t on the sprocket to mainly the top gear ratio as near as possible. I know the SA hub is only a 100mm hub with spacers to reach 130mm. I wonder if I could fit a BMX type freewheel on the rear and get my 52t front chainring back?
 
geekybiker said:
The plan is replace the 7spd cassette with a SA 3spd IGH. I need 14t on the sprocket to mainly the top gear ratio as near as possible. I know the SA hub is only a 100mm hub with spacers to reach 130mm. I wonder if I could fit a BMX type freewheel on the rear and get my 52t front chainring back?

Being content with only a 3 speed hub makes your situation much easier. Much more space around the input to the hub for a large direct driven sprocket and freewheel for pedal assist. You would be limited to a 16T minimum freewheel on the rear though (1&3/8" x 24TPI, the freewheel size of Gary's adaptor) rather than a 14T freewheel which needs 30mmx1mm . No more freewheel cranks however, which i take it means you can use your 52T chainring which is of a different BCD to your currently smaller tooth count freewheel crank chainring/s?

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=12267
http://www.tppacks.com/proddetail.asp?prod=EBKE-z-FWAdapter

FW%20Adapter%20Kit-bg.jpg
 
boostjuice said:
geekybiker said:
The plan is replace the 7spd cassette with a SA 3spd IGH. I need 14t on the sprocket to mainly the top gear ratio as near as possible. I know the SA hub is only a 100mm hub with spacers to reach 130mm. I wonder if I could fit a BMX type freewheel on the rear and get my 52t front chainring back?

Being content with only a 3 speed hub makes your situation much easier. Much more space around the input to the hub for a large direct driven sprocket and freewheel for pedal assist. You would be limited to a 16T minimum freewheel on the rear though (1&3/8" x 24TPI, the freewheel size of Gary's adaptor) rather than a 14T freewheel which needs 30mmx1mm . No more freewheel cranks however, which i take it means you can use your 52T chainring which is of a different BCD to your currently smaller tooth count freewheel crank chainring/s?

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=12267
http://www.tppacks.com/proddetail.asp?prod=EBKE-z-FWAdapter

I saw that adapter and was looking at it again just the other day. However from what I can tell, the 16T gear ends up useless and you need to mount another larger gear back there for the motor. This works out well if you're using RC gear, but the cyclone motor already has reduction, and it just needs a second sprocket of about the same size as the pedal driven sprocket. I saw an adapter for nuvinci hubs, but nothing like that for plain old 3 prong styles.
 
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