downhill vs freeride bike for ebike conversion?

E

EdwardNY

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I have been doing alot of research on downhill bikes and then noticed a new type of bike that I never even heard about before called a freeride bike.

It seems like they are very similar and there are slight differences. To me it seems like they are close enough to where many people argue over the differences. Some say a freeride bike does everything good and is the more versatile bike, which makes me wonder why it is never talked about for an ebike conversion on endless-sphere.

I was wondering what bike would be better for an ebike conversion. I will give you an idea of what I want to do with the bike to help you better able to recommend which bike to go for.

Here is what I would like to use the bike for. Bascially I want the ebike to do 50+MPH and be stable at that speed on the street.
I also want to do high jumps (some over 6 feet) with the bike and also be able to drive down stairs and obstacles like that., basically a good urban assault bike as I will use the bike mostly in NYC.
I may also use the bike for occasional trail riding, but I doubt I will drive the bike to trails that often.
I will be using it in parks and grassy enviornments around NYC. So I want a bike where I can ride in parks, over grass, and dirt roads hitting high speeds and be very stable.

Basically, I should get the bike best suited for my urban city enviornment which is mostly street driving, and driving in the larger parks. Also using the bike for jumps and stuff that I would find around the city and for driving down stairs. I wouldn't use the bike for actual down hill biking as I probably will not bring an ebike to the mountain for that.

Some other things that I am concerned about is steering around the city. Many people on this forum have told me that because the downhill bike has a longer wheelbase, it loses alot of agility and steering which may be bad for a city environment. I was wondering if there would be any differences between a downhill and a freeride in this respect?

What type of bike would be more comfortable to sit on for hours while ebiking? Is a downhill bike comfortable to sit on compared with a cross country?
 
I would say a DH bike is likely to be best for the hucks. But at 50 mph on the street, you'd want a longer wheelbase than typical of either type.

Start learning to weld I guess.

For everything but the hucks, and up to 40 mph, a freeride bike would be a good choice. Some good examples based on the specialized have been built. Oatnets for one.

Either kind will have your basic needs, suspension that is not a wallmart toy, and less lateral flex of the frame. The cheap imitations of a DH bike wag their tails.
 
DH is typically a heavier build than Freeride, with more suspension travel and a more slack head angle for stability at higher speeds. Its what you want for 50mph and serious hucks.

But, no normal bicycle is going to be naturally stable at 50mph. they just aren't designed for it. It will be controllable, but twitchy. And a DH or FR's long travel suspension makes them tricky to stop fast at high speeds. they all tend to brake dive with such a long travel suspension, and that means you will have to hang way off the tail and learn to do nose wheelies to stop fast.

As for low speed handling, forget it. when you lay the fork back DH/FR style for high speed handling, you lose low speed handling that comes with a more upright fork angle. And long travel suspension bikes don't have the razor sharp handling of a rigid frame bike by any stretch of the imagination.

DH is the way to go for most of what you want. But be ready for it to be a different riding experience.
 
I think bzhwindtalker might have kittens when he spots this ^^^ looks
to be right up his alley! :mrgreen:

KiM
 
I have a little experience in this area, with my A-Line. Here's what I know.
It rides like motorcycle. That is likely partly due to the rake angle of the front steering, plus the wheel base that I elongated by 3". It's more likely due to the motorcycle rims and tires. But either way, that how it handles.

At slow speeds it's not as maneuverable as a bicycle, but definitely not motorcycle-like. At 30mph, it rides like my old Honda Shadow VT1100 cruiser motorcycle. I have no doubt whatsoever this bike can do 50mph and be stable at speed.

Braking hard, it dives like crazy. That's the 100mm of front travel. Breaking hard the rear gets a bit squirmy too. I'm not sure why - in the spring I plan to do some high speed breaking tests.

I've ridden it down short stairways, and I have no doubt I can ride right up the same stairs :D

It rides like a motorcycle... in all the best and all the worst ways.
 
Dh or Freeride, same frames mostly. Most freeride bikes are DH frames built with lighter components. Some manufacturers offer DH and Freeride specific frames, yet there is very little difference between them. If you compare the Norco's A-Line and Team DH, you will see that the only difference in the frame is 0.5° in the steer tube angle. All the other differences are in the choice of components to build them.

Let's call those "gravity bikes", and yes they are the best to build the "light weight E-motorcycle" that our powerful ebikes really are. Most pro gravity bikes are very stiff frames, wide enough for 3" tires and built with robust performance components. They handle nicely 50 Mph on rough terrain, and can survive the average crash when built properly.

The downsides: Most of them have little frame space for batteries, and their rear suspension requires mods to control the rebound of a heavy hub motor. Their geometry makes them wheelie machines, extension of the swing arm might be necessary if one is not comfortable with that feature. In any case, it is much better to use a large size frame to build serious power.
 
I built up a Kona Coiler Supreme...which Kona calls a free-ride bike. It'll do close to 40 on flats...and I've had it up to just under 50 going down large hills. At those speeds it doesn't feel like a motorcycle at all...it feels like a shortwheel based bike with a lot of suspension. Brake jack is always an issue with long travel bikes. My kona has a floating rear brake which helps a lot with the rear compression. But, it still sinks like a mother in the front...no matter what.

I like the older Kona's for a few reasons: you can find the frames fairly cheep, there's lots of space in the triangle,and it has bolt in replaceable drop outs that allow for custom torque arm-drop outs and easy wheel base extension if you like.
 
As long as you have hi and low compression settings, you can tune a fork not to dive in braking. The exception would be if you hit a bump or a pothole while braking, but then you'll be happy that it starts to dive. :wink:
 
MadRhino said:
their rear suspension requires mods to control the rebound of a heavy hub motor.
Click to expand...

Hey I just bought my first FS bike and am not sure about the rear suspension settings. What do you mean about those mods, can you elaborate?

I've got 3 settings on my 16cm travel coil and thought the settings should not only depend on my weight and the battery but some account for how the rear hub is much much heavier than the suspension was intended to be used for.
 
MadRhino said:
As long as you have hi and low compression settings, you can tune a fork not to dive in braking. The exception would be if you hit a bump or a pothole while braking, but then you'll be happy that it starts to dive. :wink:
Click to expand...

Also gave me another idea, my bike came with one of those lock out buttons in the cockpit - If I know I will be breaking soon like coming toward an intersection down a hill it will be cool to give up on the extra suspension for a bit to take up the advantage of smoother braking.

Anyway I have only test ridden for about 20 minutes without all the electric side put on yet and yes I noticed a big difference in handling between this very soft tail and my XC hardtails. the hardtails perform much better at steering tight corners and in general riding flat.

I hope at high speeds (havent tested yet) the longer 14cm will improve for steering.
 
DH forks have no lockout, that is because it is useless and the locking mechanism doesn't last anyway if you give it any abuse. This is good only for pedal speed freaks, our ebikes are much better with a motorcycle like suspension. Some interesting designs are going that direction, an example is the IPO 90 Downhill bike :

9576.jpg
 
Been looking for a bike for my second build now that I am wrapping up my first ebike conversion. Most of the downhill bikes (a few years old) have much too shallow a head angle for normal use. Anything less than around 65 degrees will plow badly when forks are extended and not handle well unless it has tons of rake. Caster angles are way off on them and in my experience they will not handle well on flats unless the forks compress quite a bit in use. Wheelbase is good and long for speed, but will fight you when in tight twisty stuff and most likely pedal like shit if you need to get home un assisted. I like the double crown (triple clamp) motorcycle style forks most of them sport but unless I build something that is mainly dedicated to high speeds, I more likely will go the free ride or good mtn bike route as a starting point. All the stuff I seem to like is big bucks so I will shop for awhile and decide on motor /setup before I choose a frame.
 
speedmd said:
...Caster angles are way off on them and in my experience they will not handle well on flats unless the forks compress quite a bit in use.
Click to expand...

True, most don't seem to understand the tuning specs and set the sag way too high. A good fork can be set while keeping riding, to a lower pre-compression in a click or two.


speedmd said:
...Wheelbase is good and long for speed, but will fight you when in tight twisty stuff and most likely pedal like shit if you need to get home un assisted. I like the double crown (triple clamp) motorcycle style forks most of them sport but unless I build something that is mainly dedicated to high speeds, I more likely will go the free ride or good mtn bike route as a starting point.
Click to expand...

Most modern DH racing frames are designed with many variable geometry setting points, that offers quite a wide range of tuning for riders size, riding styles and terrain. DH bikes now pedeal good and are much lighter, that is because DH racing tracks are now built with a lot more technical sections and races are won with a fair bit of pedal power. Not that i consider that an ebike has to be pedal efficient, a single gear low enough to ride home without power is enough for my need.

speedmd said:
... All the stuff I seem to like is big bucks so I will shop for awhile and decide on motor /setup before I choose a frame.
Click to expand...

I usually go the opposite route:
A rig can be built with various setups, and all of my frames are/been using many motors and controllers.
Yet it is true that one need to shop a lot to find a proper frame at a fair price.
 
speedmd said:
Been looking for a bike for my second build now that I am wrapping up my first ebike conversion. Most of the downhill bikes (a few years old) have much too shallow a head angle for normal use. Anything less than around 65 degrees will plow badly when forks are extended and not handle well unless it has tons of rake. Caster angles are way off on them and in my experience they will not handle well on flats unless the forks compress quite a bit in use. Wheelbase is good and long for speed, but will fight you when in tight twisty stuff and most likely pedal like shit if you need to get home un assisted. I like the double crown (triple clamp) motorcycle style forks most of them sport but unless I build something that is mainly dedicated to high speeds, I more likely will go the free ride or good mtn bike route as a starting point. All the stuff I seem to like is big bucks so I will shop for awhile and decide on motor /setup before I choose a frame.
Click to expand...

I decided I will stay away from bike frames for my next build. I originally thought about using a downhill mountain bike or a freeride bike but I will probably buy a frame build specifically for ebikes.

I was like you looking at downhill bikes and worried about how they would handle and also be modified to fit batteries etc.. I really just did not get a good feeling about it also.

Something like the Phasor
https://www.phasorcycles.com/

The reason I want to move away from bike frames is that they were never meant for an ebike conversion. I am tired of having to mount battery packs on the outside of the frame, deal with custom torque arms, etc. You also can get these frames with wide dropouts (160mm) so you can fit a cromotor or other wide hub motors that have more torque. No reason to deal with down hill bikes in my opinion.

I am keeping my eye opened for ebike built frames and following peoples build thread of the phasor. My advice would be to avoid bicycle frames altogether and go the route of ebike built frames.
 
Unless you can do everything yourself without errors the phasor bike which I also considered for a long time will be creeping up to the cost of a stealth fighter. Which is kind of my dream bike, just can't spend that much. I'd justify just spending the extra few grand knowing you have everything perfectly set up with a warranty.

Both though; a phasor or a fighter are a bit of an overkill for road riding and bike paths too and are not as stealth looking IMO, as a bicycle with a cargo looking case thrown on it somewhere. Depends on where you plan to ride. While I was considering buying a fighter, I posted on a mountain bike forum what the mtb riders would think if they saw a phasor or fighter on a single track, and I got ton of anger thrown at me, for even asking, THEY HATE THE IDEA OF ANYTHING MOTORISED UP THERE. So really, unless you have your own land, riding something that IMO looks like a dirtbike is just going to get you in trouble on or off road.

My dad also just said time and again too, why don't you just buy a motorbike for that money?

Well, I like bike paths, parks, safe open quiet footpaths, as well as roads and fire roads and a bit of easy single track. There is only one solution: a normal bicycle that runs on E power.

enough ranting
 
THEY HATE THE IDEA OF ANYTHING MOTORISED UP THERE.
Click to expand...

Yes, I am reminded of the saying, "the one thing I can not tolerate is intolerance".

Both the phasor and the stealth are too much like emotos to me. A light mtn bike may be best for light duty trail and low speed road riding. Something more like Kemplers weight weenie ride with some suspension travel and a few more ponies. Lots to still learn with my first e-build so I have some time to ponder. If I did not have the tools and the bike frame building experience, I would also lean toward one of the factory ebike. Only so much time, and if your not having fun learning nor have the desire, you should pay/ play instead.
 
What kind of riding speedmd?

My bro just bought a pseries specialised bike and I was blown away by it. about $600 with fat road tyres wide handle bars nice 2x8 chain short throw derauller nice 2.35 inch road tyres. Looks totally deadly too. Front forks a little bit cheap but for that price wow. Huge triangle and I thought it would have a poor low seat but it just is like a mountain bike. First thought was this is an awesome electric bike waiting.

But if you are doing single trails, I think a light bike with the weight of hub and batteries just ain't going to happen. It's got to be a tougher heavier bike that can handle the extra stress of stumps, roots, rock gardens. And then well its too heavy to ride over easy things. catch 22 I got stuck in.

I got into electric by error. I just wanted something to haul me to the top of the mountain so that I could mountain bike down on technical single trail. Doesn't work that way.

Oh well discovered the joy of flying around paths and pedalling only on up hills :)

Anyway after months of searching I finally threw my money at this, just got it a day ago waiting for the ekit now.

XC1D11.jpg


It was the cheapest bike I could find with the most amount of travel and vertical dropouts. Plenty of things I don't like about it, but you got to focus on something in the budget. Battery mounting is a big problem I have to work out somehow.
 
speedmd wrote:
...Caster angles are way off on them and in my experience they will not handle well on flats unless the forks compress quite a bit in use.


True, most don't seem to understand the tuning specs and set the sag way too high. A good fork can be set while keeping riding, to a lower pre-compression in a click or two.
Click to expand...
Agree, most do not know where to start. Forks/shocks have come a long way. Do like the way you can change the ride heights on the fancy stuff both front and rear. Would certainly be a excellent thing to have something like the three position speed switch to control ride heights / dampening at both ends while riding. You could potentially have a downhill setting, a general off/rough road setting and a moto gp setting all on the same bike. :p
 
What kind of riding speedmd?
Click to expand...

Hi John

Not sure what I will build yet for the second ebike. The stock one I am building the battery box for now is a 2002 vintage full suspension c-dale jekyll that is set up more as a commuter. It was near new and perfect for $200. I jumped on it. Should be around 50 -55 pounds when done. Spooky as I was telling my wife what I envisioned would make a good commuter ebike (fatter road tires, suspension, longer wheelbase, hydro brakes) and the next morning we stopped at a yard/tag/garage sale and there it was.


I may just do as you did and search for a more current light mtn bike. My home made custom prestige mountain bike from early 1980's (one of the first mountain bike tube sets Tange made) I still use with the grand son is still relatively light / strong but no suspension and a bit too short a wheel base for 30mph comfortably. Being a old motox racer and trials rider, I know this was just a good learning platform and will want to build something at or at least closer to the limits of what is possible. Leaning toward the talked about 4" astro if I go weight weenie or maybe something like John in CR's motor in a mid drive if I can fit it in where I am thinking it could go on custom made speed (super moto) type build. I live on the edge of a large (16000+ acres) forest that is connected to several other large preserves so have access to tons of all sorts of great riding.

Much still to learn and lots of avenues to explore. Enjoying the trip so far.

cheers
 
speedmd said:
Has any one figured out a way to tie the ebrake circuit to some sort of anti dive dampening in the front end. :?:
Click to expand...

There are some suspension forks out there (not good ones by DH standards;at least the one I have) that have a lockout feature combined with an emergency "blowout" valve. Under braking, it would not compress, but if you hit an unexpected pothole, it would "blowout" giving you some travel.

If you could make a lockout mechanism that was activated by the e-brake circuit, you might have this functionality.

Come to think of it, this might be an opportunity for a fork manufacturer to get in on the e-bike market by developing this into a robust system.
 
MadRhino said:
I usually go the opposite route:
A rig can be built with various setups, and all of my frames are/been using many motors and controllers.
Yet it is true that one need to shop a lot to find a proper frame at a fair price.
Click to expand...

I like your thinking. And I'm pretty sure it was one of your many posts that got me sold on having a DH rig for my 'fast' bike.

Anyone wanting to put together a strong and fast bike for a good price needs to start at the frame. There's lots of savings to be had if you shop around and wait for the right frame. Having the cash in hand when it does show up is just as important. I found my Norco frame for $250 on Craigslist. It was basically a full bike without chain and gearing/derailleurs. After selling the wheelset, the frame cost should be down to $175. That is a great price considering it has a Bomber front fork and a FOX rear included. I bought it a year ago and it has not seen any action yet. But, I might still be looking for a deal that good if I hadn't jumped on it back then.

Guys looking to build DH rigs: Focus your savings on the frame. The ebike stuff doesn't have as much opportunity to save cash unless you are willing to do some work to fix something (like a busted motor). But, there's some pedal DH guys out there that need to have the latest and greatest, and go through a frame each year or so. My bike started life out as a $3000 hucker that fell into my hands for much less than a decent DH fork costs brand new.
 
All i can say is do it once/ right the first time. Its not worth stuffing around/ wasting money. Spend a few weeks/ months saving the extra $$$ and go phasor, greyborg or stealth. There's a reasons why they are expensive...R&D costs!. Look at all the top builds on here and you will see Giant DH comps, Norco- A lines etc. Oh and if you can weld then you're set
 
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