downhill vs freeride bike for ebike conversion?

[EdwardNY]

All i can say is do it once/ right the first time. Its not worth stuffing around/ wasting money. Spend a few weeks/ months saving the extra $$$ and go phasor, greyborg or stealth. There's a reasons why they are expensive...R&D costs!. Look at all the top builds on here and you will see Giant DH comps, Norco- A lines etc. Oh and if you can weld then you're set

I do not really understand your post. You are saying to save your money and buy a phasor or stealth, but then you say all the top builds are Giant DH comps, etc., which are bicycle frames.
Then you mention welding, which would be building your own frame.

To me you are saying everything is good?

 

[John Bozi]

I think he was being sarcastic - comparing expensive vs the best 10 year old frame builds on here.

 

[speedmd]

Has any one figured out a way to tie the ebrake circuit to some sort of anti dive dampening in the front end.

There are some suspension forks out there (not good ones by DH standards;at least the one I have) that have a lockout feature combined with an emergency "blowout" valve. Under braking, it would not compress, but if you hit an unexpected pothole, it would "blowout" giving you some travel.

If you could make a lockout mechanism that was activated by the e-brake circuit, you might have this functionality.

Come to think of it, this might be an opportunity for a fork manufacturer to get in on the e-bike market by developing this into a robust system.

Simple lock out solenoids could do it. Thinking the ultimate would be some active suspension logic built into the black box that can be as smart as you could program. Cost would be a issue for certain.

 

[MadRhino]

All i can say is do it once/ right the first time. Its not worth stuffing around/ wasting money. Spend a few weeks/ months saving the extra $$$ and go phasor, greyborg or stealth. There's a reasons why they are expensive...R&D costs!. Look at all the top builds on here and you will see Giant DH comps, Norco- A lines etc. Oh and if you can weld then you're set

One can build much better performance than Phasor, Greyborg, Stealth...
Yet it is true that it is saving money to do it once, and to succeed building performance from a DH racing frame is likely to cost more than any of those ready made high end ebikes. My actual performance is about 110 Kmh with take off to race most motorcycles on the street and any off road, with a sub 80 Lbs bike. But it took me 4 years, 5 builds and an awful lot of batteries, motors and controllers to get there. Nevertheless, my first goal was 40 Mph and I succeeded at first try, costing me a fraction of the price of those high end ready made ebike that all have similar performance. Today, I am very happy with the bikes that I ride and I know I couldn't have bought one anywhere that would come close, yet it is after a lot of work and some 25K $

 

[speedmd]

I am with you MadRhino.

No sense spending 10K on a sheet metal frame ebike. Sorry folks, I am not bad mouthing the builds, but as a long time cromo bike frame builder, I cringe at the thought. Maybe if they were hydro-formed into a sexy looking structural element I could get excited, but the way they look to me at least, is more like a 1940's willies jeep. Cool because it is 100% functional, but not very slick.

Old saying was, "If it ain't broke don't fix it". The new saying is one I have adopted fully and it goes, "If it ain't perfect, improve it". It is not for everyone, but that is how I roll.

As far as the multiple builds are concerned, I am reminded of the old timer that told me he enjoyed the mistakes along the way. Kept him on his toes trying to anticipate all the problem areas and trying your best to design around them. He would say, "A good education costs a lot of money, no matter how you get it".

cheers

 

[GCinDC]

I decided I will stay away from bike frames for my next build. I originally thought about using a downhill mountain bike or a freeride bike but I will probably buy a frame build specifically for ebikes.

maybe time to change the thread title. lol

biggest drops i've seen w/ a hub motor were from phasor guy, w/ a BMC geared motor.

if drops are a priority, you probably want to steer away from hub motors towards mid drives... a 50lb dh bike gets up to 90lb pretty quick w/ electrics, esp if 50mph is the goal. add 25+ mile range as a requirement and you're looking more at 120 lbs...

my thinking now is 2 bikes: a lighter one for drops and torquey dirt stuff, a middrive w/ lower top speed - more fun mountain biking experience, and another heavier faster street machine...

in any case, i look forward to the vids.

 

[speedmd]

my thinking now is 2 bikes: a lighter one for drops and torquey dirt stuff, a middrive w/ lower top speed - more fun mountain biking experience, and another heavier faster street machine...

Hi GCinDC

I think your spot on. A goal I had early on was to see if it was possible to get 10 KW out of 10 KG (motor / mechanical /electrical parts) plus the back pack battery. On something like a C-dale scalpel (which they claim is 21 pounds) would be an amazing ride. May be possible with something like the talked about 4" astro.

 

[Chalo]

A goal I had early on was to see if it was possible to get 10 KW out of 10 KG (motor / mechanical /electrical parts) plus the back pack battery. On something like a C-dale scalpel (which they claim is 21 pounds) [snip]

You'll lay waste to a bike like that if you add 10kW.

I've broken a lot of Cannondales over the years-- none of them nearly that light, and none with supplemental power.

If you want to add the power of a small motorcycle to a bicycle, it needs most of the structural integrity of a small motorcycle. That means low-safety-margin lightweight race equipment is not on the table.

 

[MadRhino]

Agreed.
If you want to build power on a Cannondale frame, go for the Jekyll Alu or the Claymore, upgraded with DH components of course.
I would not hesitate to build 10+ Kw on an older Judge or Gemini, and they can be found really cheap off season on Pinkbike. They offer absolutely no space in frame though, even a small 12 fet controller would be hard to fit in there.

 

[speedmd]

low-safety-margin lightweight

Yes agreed, "low safety margin" is not good for either man or machine power. "Lightweight" is not synonymous.

I have heard this argument many times over the years and it is most false. Because something is light, it can not hold up.

Never met a bike mechanic that agreed with taking spokes out of wheels, even when wheels were made demonstrably stronger and more reliable with a stronger rim and less but better terminated and placed spokes. When bikes went away from the standard tubes used for a century, the cry's from the gallery were vocal and still reverberate. Is my 15 pound carbon bike as durable as my 21 pound cromoly bike. Certainly not in a crash, but its stiffness in both the crank and head tube are far superior while greatly improving ride quality. I agree with MadRhino that the slightly older metal frames are a better choice, but just using the new bike as a weight reference. Plus they are the right price point for cutting up.

Design is critical, no doubt. But case in point.

The mad fiber wheel is a feather weight with a huge safety factor. Regardless, starting with a motorcycle design is a lazy and totally wrong headed approach in my opinion. Even a super light motor bike is a few hundred pounds. I am talking something under 60 pounds which is a huge difference when you do the math on the safety factors. Endless sphere is where dreams are born. Appreciate your concerns but throwing cold water on ideas is not what its about.

 

[John Bozi]

Speedmd when you work out the best lightest fastest ebike set up let me know. As I started my first post on this forum asking the question:

convert my 10kg carbon or my cheap old tank? Everyone said the tank and I am glad as the kit was cheap and would have made the carbon part pointless. After months of more research I have a better idea of what would suit it better now and it isn't 500-1000 gearless watt made hub. I reckon a 350watt geared one with a light kettle battery would be more suitable.

There was a super light mid drive carbon bike a guy made somewhere on the net cant remember who.

As for my new bike situation, I just spent another couple of hundred a few minutes ago, on 2.5 hookworms and tubes to match and topeak rear rack bag as there is no solution to fitting my 16 16 20 battery into the frame or on it with out going to a mig welding shop. I will do this further down the track if I hate the rear rack.

Tyres are heavy and fat but they need to be to support IMO the 4035 motor and work with the higher street speeds.

 

[efMX Trials Electric Freeride]

http://www.torquebikes.com

"EdwardNY
I decided I will stay away from bike frames for my next build. I originally thought about using a downhill mountain bike or a freeride bike but I will probably buy a frame build specifically for ebikes.

I was like you looking at downhill bikes and worried about how they would handle and also be modified to fit batteries etc.. I really just did not get a good feeling about it also.

Something like the Phasor
https://www.phasorcycles.com/

The reason I want to move away from bike frames is that they were never meant for an ebike conversion. I am tired of having to mount battery packs on the outside of the frame, deal with custom torque arms, etc. You also can get these frames with wide dropouts (160mm) so you can fit a cromotor or other wide hub motors that have more torque. No reason to deal with down hill bikes in my opinion.

I am keeping my eye opened for ebike built frames and following peoples build thread of the phasor. My advice would be to avoid bicycle frames altogether and go the route of ebike built frames.

 

[John Bozi]

wow never seen the raptor before and the frame is relatively cheap at about $1400 without shipping from Slovenia.

Looks much better than the phasor IMO. And I especially like the controller protection.

My only question with stealth phasor raptor and even my own bike.

For the amount of travel these bikes boast, can the rear wheel handle a situation where the full amount of travel will be used?

 

[speedmd]

Hi John

Happy fathers day to all the ebike crew.

I think the GCinDC summed it up best with directions of builds. Build it light and nimble or go heavy strong / fast. I dont think carbon is best for off road or really for anyone that is not trying to go extreme weight weenie. Its failure mode is very bad and fixing one is not possible on most when they do fail.

Don't plan on doing any big drops or risking my life for a few seconds of extreme riding but do want to try to get the most out of a 60 pound or less build in a on/off road bike. The hub motors are for certain a easy clean approach (minus the torque arm inadequacy), but I want something that can start/ stop and start again on something like a flight of stairs without needing a 100 amps to do it. Also would like to be able to bunny hop it easily. It looks more and more like I will need to build something custom or use a Mtn or lighter free ride frame.

cheers