Dual Mode or Sinewave controller Which is better for ...

[ScooterMan101]

For the MXUS 500 watt motors front and rear
and/or
For the Aikema / Cute 350 watt 100c cst rear hub motors

Is sine wave or dual mode controllers better ?

What does each do differently

I already know that for the 500 watt motors a controller 20-22 amps max are best for the motor .
and
for the 350 watt motors 15 amp max upper limit is best .
Both are geared motors that can be bought front or rear version .

And

Where to buy a controller and matching display and pas etc. for the MXUS 500 watt geared motors , 22 amp max .
and
for the Aikema / Cute 100c cst ?

 

[docw009]

I always thought dual mode meant dual voltage, ability to select the right LVC when powering up on 36V or 48V, but some people use that for controllers that can switch between sensored and sensorless motors.

The latter would seem to be an advantage, but I've never had the Hall sensors in a motor fail, I use KT controllers because I like how their pedal assist feels. At one time, I had my wife's AKM100 running on a square wave 17A, and my AKM100 on a sinewave 20A. THey sounded about the same.

 

[ScooterMan101]

I always thought dual mode meant dual voltage, ability to select the right LVC when powering up on 36V or 48V, but some people use that for controllers that can switch between sensored and sensorless motors.

The latter would seem to be an advantage, but I've never had the Hall sensors in a motor fail, I use KT controllers because I like how their pedal assist feels. At one time, I had my wife's AKM100 running on a square wave 17A, and my AKM100 on a sinewave 20A. THey sounded about the same.

I have been running my little 350 watt 100 c cst with a 15 amp controller, did the 20 amp damage the motor ?
on a different note ( different motor ) ...
The MXUS rear is rated for up to 22 I read somewhere, but if someone here knows if 26 amps wold be OK, One place only sells 6 12 and 18 fet controllers , not 9 fet for some reason. It is still new sitting in a box , until I can find a Controller/Display/Pas. etc. for it at a decent price . Only place so far is on eBay $ 109 with tax and shipping for a 9fet and KT-LCD8 display.
At that price I would most likely want to buy a whole MXUS front kit with everthing included . But on eBay that is
$ 287 with tax and shipping from China, and that is just the motor , no spokes/rim or build . At that price and with all
the extra work involved with getting the right size spokes , wheel build , rim , a cheep mid drive is starting to look
like a better option.

 

[Chalo]

"Dual mode" means with or without Hall sensors, and with-sensors can be constructed sine wave if that's what the controller is designed to do. "Three mode" means constructed sine wave if the Hall signals are good, trapezoidal wave if they're weak or faulty, and sensorless if they're absent.

FOC is something like sine wave, but tailored to the properties of the motor. It's considered the quietest and most efficient kind of motor control.

 

[docw009]

It's up to the user. If you have restraint, you can over current a motor for brief periods and not burn it up.

 

[ScooterMan101]

"Dual mode" means with or without Hall sensors, and with-sensors can be constructed sine wave if that's what the controller is designed to do. "Three mode" means constructed sine wave if the Hall signals are good, trapezoidal wave if they're weak or faulty, and sensorless if they're absent.

FOC is something like sine wave, but tailored to the properties of the motor. It's considered the quietest and most efficient kind of motor control.

Thank You, Yours is a better discription than what Google has .

Grin does FOC Controllers ?
Do you know who else does ?

 

[ScooterMan101]

It's up to the user. If you have restraint, you can over current a motor for brief periods and not burn it up.

Good to know especially in the case of going to a 9 up from a 6 fet
and from a 9 up to a 12 fet . Wonder in regards to those small 350 and 500 watt geared motors
how many seconds
can you run the motor at 2x the wattage ?

 

[stancecoke]

Grin does FOC Controllers ?
Do you know who else does ?

FOC is state of the art. All manufacturers like ASI, Lishui, Kelly, Sabvoton, JYTcon and VESC derivates offer controllers with FOC. Sensored and sensorless. Only poor controllers like Kunteng or Brainpower don't.

 

[E-HP]

Wonder in regards to those small 350 and 500 watt geared motors
how many seconds can you run the motor at 2x the wattage ?

Running 22A @ 48V (1056W) through a 500W G60 geared hub, looks like 4 minutes. Half the power is turning into heat (just over 50% efficiency). Do you have a specific motor in mind?

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[Chalo]

FOC is state of the art. All manufacturers like ASI, Lishui, Kelly, Sabvoton, JYTcon and VESC derivates offer controllers with FOC. Sensored and sensorless. Only poor reliable, ready to use, no hassle controllers like Kunteng or Brainpower don't.

Fixed that for you!

 

[stancecoke]

Fixed that for you!

Kunteng or Brainpower is a choice for beginners, who are happy if they have a cheap and simply (noisy) running system.
But once you've tasted blood and tried a system with state of the art features, you won't want this cheap stuff on your bike anymore

 

[E-HP]

Thank You, Yours is a better discription than what Google has .

Grin does FOC Controllers ?
Do you know who else does ?

My first controller was sine wave (KT), my backup dual mode controller was trapezoidal, and I believe the last two are FOC. The sine wave was really quiet. The trap was noisy, but not obnoxious. The first FOC was louder than the sine wave. The one I'm using now is dead silent, with a direct drive motor.
If you care about noise, go with sine wave or FOC. If you want reliability, go with the dual mode. Dual mode FOC is the best of both worlds. If your motor ever starts sounding noisy, then you'll know you have a hall sensor problem, since defaulting over to sensorless mode uses a trapezoidal/square waveform.

 

[Chalo]

Kunteng or Brainpower is a choice for beginners, who are happy if they have a cheap and simply (noisy) running system.
But once you've tasted blood and tried a system with state of the art features, you won't want this cheap stuff on your bike anymore

My favorite so far is three mode controllers that are as easy to install and run, and almost as cheap, as the lowest priced no-display trap wave kind. Silent! (Though silence is more of a side benefit for me than a goal in its own right.)

 

[stancecoke]

My favorite so far is three mode controllers

No problem, if you are happy with the state of the art of the year 2009...

 

[Chalo]

No problem, if you are happy with the state of the art of the year 2009...

It's cute how you seem to think electric motors have a different job to do then vs now.

 

[stancecoke]

If you just want to have a dump moped, it's OK, but I prefer features like having torquesensors attached for a bicycle like behaviour, having things like MTPA or field weakening, linear regen....

 

[E-HP]

Bicycle like behavior can be easily attained but shutting off assist. With assist, you are only trying to replicate what it might feel like to have stronger legs. Nothing to do with feeling like a bicycle.

 

[hillslayer@]

If you're going dual motor I have heard good things about the filpsky vesc controllers they can do traction control

 

[stancecoke]

Bicycle like behavior can be easily attained but shutting off assist.

No need to argue Make what ever you like. When I want to ride a moped, I take my BMW.

All OEM EBike drive train manufacturers like Bosch, Yamaha, Panasonic, Brose, Fazua, Bafang... are using torquesensors, so the idea seems not to be the worst

Being able to provide that feeling is obviously a big profit business, commanding ridiculous prices.

One of the cheapest and most popular DIY retrofit drive systems is the TSDZ2. Strange, it has a torquesensor

 

[E-HP]

Ebike companies have figured out how to capitalize on making riders feel younger and stronger than they are. Fountain of youth thing for affluent buyers. Being able to provide that feeling is obviously a big profit business, commanding ridiculous prices.

 

[Elios.pk]

Ebike companies have figured out how to capitalize on making riders feel younger and stronger than they are. Fountain of youth thing for affluent buyers. Being able to provide that feeling is obviously a big profit business, commanding ridiculous prices.

Throttles are forbidden in EU. A torque sensor is objectively the best way to control the torque input from your motor when doing hard enduro trails (or any terrain where you want to be precise). I rather see torque sensor as the most precise way of control rather than just a marketing gimmick.

 

[Chalo]

Throttles are forbidden in EU. A torque sensor is objectively the best way to control the torque input from your motor when doing hard enduro trails (or any terrain where you want to be precise). I rather see torque sensor as the most precise way of control rather than just a marketing gimmick.

It's a multi-hundred (or in some cases, probably multi-thousand) euro solution to a ten euro problem. Perfect for the industry.

Why would I want the motor to be doing the same thing I'm doing, rather than complementing and filling in the gaps with what I'm doing? This kind of busybody regulation, in places that still allow cars to exist, is so stupid and blinkered, I don't have words for it. No public interest is served that way.

 

[Chalo]

Ebike companies have figured out how to capitalize on making riders feel younger and stronger than they are. Fountain of youth thing for affluent buyers. Being able to provide that feeling is obviously a big profit business, commanding ridiculous prices.

I feel disingenuously flattered and transparently manipulated when I ride one. I earned my cyclist stripes the authentic way, and I can tell when somebody spat in my food and then smiled to my face.

It's more of the whole bikes-as-toys trope that has ruined practical cycling for more than twenty years now.

 

[bananu7]

It's more of the whole bikes-as-toys trope that has ruined practical cycling for more than twenty years now.

Oh, come on now. I know that some people are of the "no fun allowed type" and will happily sacrifice any sort of happiness in life for mundane utilitarianism, but the "trope" of people wanting to have enjoyable bikes doesn't prevent you from getting a boring cargo grocery hauler. It's just that normal people ride ebikes now too, not just geeks, and normal people want more things from their bikes than just the absolute optimal way of getting from A to B.

Torque sensor bikes allow you to much more easily adapt to tricky terrain in offroad and crucially keep doing most of the work yourself while having the bike assist you rather than do the work for you. You wouldn't know that riding only on flat city streets, but that's a perfectly valid use case for one, and dismissing the technology just because you don't need it is awfully self-centered and short-sighted, and no amount of "old man yells at new ebikes" handwaving will change that.

 

[E-HP]

Why would I want the motor to be doing the same thing I'm doing, rather than complementing and filling in the gaps with what I'm doing? This kind of busybody regulation, in places that still allow cars to exist, is so stupid and blinkered, I don't have words for it. No public interest is served that way.

At some point common sense should prevail. The first reaction of the public and politicians to anything new is to regulate the heck out of it. In the mean time, someone needs to design a lightweight version of one of these that can attach to the front of e-bikes to make the look less menacing.

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In the early 1900s some people had concerns that all of these newfangled automobiles on the road were spooking horses. At least three American inventors devised attachments for automobiles to put the horse back in the horseless carriage.

paleofuture.com