I would never use pedal assist off-road on anything more than a fire road. Throttle plus legs provide the most control in dangerous situations. Nothing in between you and what goes to the rear wheels. No assist levels, no algorithm, just your raw input.
Dual Mode or Sinewave controller Which is better for ...
- Thread starter ScooterMan101
- Start date
Have you ever ridden a modern mountain ebike, like, at all? Or is that just purely theoretical speculation?
I'm like the first person to recommend mounting a throttle on an ebike, and will happily trade pedals for pegs, but everything in this thread said about torque sensors has just been blatantly false and uninformed, at best. It completely contradicts my direct experience as well as thousands of other people that actually do ride those bikes rather than merely argue about them on the internet.
I just trust my throttle hand more than electronics. It’s not for everyone, and Im not trying to convince you to change your preferred method of applying assist. My confidence in using a throttle comes from over 300k miles of throttle only riding, and a lot of practice with these crappy hall based throttle, but Im able to manipulate assist to within a 50w band reliably. I don’t feel the need to evangelize, but I believe it’s ok on this forum to share differing experiences and viewpoints.
I like tinkering with this stuff like everyone else, and will likely get around to installing the torque sensor that’s been in my parts box for years now and have fun setting it up. It’ll be a nice to have, like cruise control, but I don’t think it will take the place of my throttle. Maybe it will, maybe it won’t. I tried out my neighbors bike, which was enough to motivate me to do the install.
I’m not making an argument, nor have I stated anything false, but there’s something interesting when sharing a differing experience or viewpoint is considered an argument. I was brought up in an age where dialogues was ok as long as there was no disrespect. Sorry I don’t have a “thousands of other people” comeback for you; not sure why that matters. It’s what you prefer that should matter to you.
I like tinkering with this stuff like everyone else, and will likely get around to installing the torque sensor that’s been in my parts box for years now and have fun setting it up. It’ll be a nice to have, like cruise control, but I don’t think it will take the place of my throttle. Maybe it will, maybe it won’t. I tried out my neighbors bike, which was enough to motivate me to do the install.
I’m not making an argument, nor have I stated anything false, but there’s something interesting when sharing a differing experience or viewpoint is considered an argument. I was brought up in an age where dialogues was ok as long as there was no disrespect. Sorry I don’t have a “thousands of other people” comeback for you; not sure why that matters. It’s what you prefer that should matter to you.
I guess it was just missing "for me".
Also if you wrote your second message originally, rather than a blanket "I would never use pedal assist off-road", you'd come out much more balanced and less evangelical. It's hard to gauge intent from written word alone, and strong statements like that tend to be viewed as arguments rather than opinions.
And to repeat, I'm not trying to convince anyone to use either method; different bikes have different merits for different people. It's the uneducated bashing of one technology by people who only have experience with the polar opposite and extrapolate what they think they would dislike have they chosen differently that I find particularly irksome.
To be fair, I do agree that if you didn't had any chain, casette, or any type of mecanical power transmission between your legs and the rear wheel (so only pegs), of course a throttle is more precise and convenient method of control. However, most of our "builds" have working pedals and chains. When I go in the mountains, my hub motor has plenty of torque for the hills but overheat quickly. This means that I need to use my legs to help the motor. In this case, your body position affects greatly the geometry and handling of the bike. You will then, while climbing uphill, encounter rocks, roots and holes on really hard enduro trails. You don't have WOT the whole time and adjust the power input accordingly to your position on the bike during each bumps. In that excact case, torque sensing is objectively (in my opinion) the superior method of motor control.
On other cases where your butt doesn't get off the saddle, throttle is much better.
Anyway, it still is a user preference so anyone can have a different point of view. I think the best way to know is to try it first. One should only have a closed opinion after trying both methods.
I couldn't agree more. EU regulations sucks so much on this point. The main reasons people tend to try to "de-restrict" their bikes or straight up build more powerful ones are caused by too strict rules. My first build was a 500W non speed-limited hub motor rig with a throttle. If EU had similar restrictions than America (20mph, 750W, throttle) instead of the atrocious 250W 25Kph without throttle, much more people would consider ebikes. There are older people and even disabled people that can't pedal anymore. Ebikes should be able to allow them to ride again too
gromike
10 kW
I have gotten back into riding pedal bikes and a torque sensing PAS is the only way to go, outside of rolling down a hill.
Chalo
100 TW
All my bikes have "torque sensing PAS". It's what bikes with pedals have always done. I just don't need it to control my motor, because I don't always want the motor to be doing the exact same thing I'm doing with the pedals. Also I don't want the expensive unreliable frippery that allows the motor to serve as my personal huelepedos.
I think it actually makes a lot of sense for a grocery hauler or a commuter, especially because in those the torque sensors are often unreliable and/or weirdly operating, and the use patterns are wildly different.
For a sport bike, offroad or on, think about it this way - you press on the pedals when you want to go faster. You press more when you want to go more faster. Torque sensing takes that and, without requiring any additional input, learning, or an extra additional wire and controller, just makes the bike work. You could hand someone who rides regular bike a lot such an ebike and they can ride it without any adjustment to their cadence or technique, and that's a huge bonus in a lot of cases.
For mountain bikes specifically, in my experience controlling a throttle while pedaling is almost impossible in a lot of cases - again, mostly in hard, technical terrain, where you're bunny-hopping over stuff and lifting the wheels over obstacles you need to be firmly on the bars and it's very hard to sync up the inputs. It can be done like on a motorbike, but then you need to stand firmly and not pedal. Torque sensing is thus the only solution that allows you to use both the motor power and the human pedal power in very hard, technical terrain.
For a sport bike, offroad or on, think about it this way - you press on the pedals when you want to go faster. You press more when you want to go more faster. Torque sensing takes that and, without requiring any additional input, learning, or an extra additional wire and controller, just makes the bike work. You could hand someone who rides regular bike a lot such an ebike and they can ride it without any adjustment to their cadence or technique, and that's a huge bonus in a lot of cases.
For mountain bikes specifically, in my experience controlling a throttle while pedaling is almost impossible in a lot of cases - again, mostly in hard, technical terrain, where you're bunny-hopping over stuff and lifting the wheels over obstacles you need to be firmly on the bars and it's very hard to sync up the inputs. It can be done like on a motorbike, but then you need to stand firmly and not pedal. Torque sensing is thus the only solution that allows you to use both the motor power and the human pedal power in very hard, technical terrain.
The other perspective is that your legs are more precise controlling power in the 100watt range they are capable of through direct leg effort, than controlling a range of ~350watt or more via a torque sensor, just by virtue of the narrower range of power being controlled. Throttle can be used for the bulk of the power required, while the legs perform the precise level of effort needed for the maneuver. Your legs become throttle assist, rather than the motor being pedal assist. Your legs are far more precise applying power directly than the pedal by wire method in situations where you need more control. You need pretty decent control over these crappy hall throttles to ride this way, but that only takes practice.
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