E-Bike Racing: 2011 World Challenge

[NorCalTuna]

Cost caps are problematic because of valuation issues outlined above. Again, whats the value of my older but originally $2600 fsr? the 700 I paid for it- verifiable at least as far as a statement from the guy who sold it to me. Or my current bike, which I hauled out of the dump? But who's to say I did that, the kid I went to the dump with? Too much work and argument about the price of tea in xyz. Claim rules simply deter people who want to avoid predatory practices by nature, for that matter. Although, yah, if you can beat what LFP is likely going to cook up you deserve pinks- but racing for pinks isn't a claim rule, it's just... ballsy!

Remember the kids who "found" a lenticular mirror that was worth like ten grand in a dumpster behind MIT on mythbusters? I once found a hardbound "people's history of the US" never opened laying on top of a pile of trash at my university, worth like 100 bucks... spine still stiff. :|

figuring out the weight rules is all we need to do. Some bikes need to go on scales and some stats have to be assembled.

I was also going to suggest that the pedals need to be mounted in a place and fashion- ie, freewheeling, not fixed and spinning away like a battlebot on the front wheel causing a hazard for any thing within a foot of them- so as they are safe and functional. The tricycle idea is funny but horrifying! Another way to put it is that the pedals must also serve as the primary footrest for the rider.

How about a poll thread? That way, we could also begin to gauge serious interest as well.

 

[liveforphysics]

RwSo, how much weight would you need dogman? 75lbs? 80lbs? Because going to 80lbs from 70lbs is going to enable my proposed bike build to have about double the average power, and jump the cost of every competitive bike up by at least $350.


There are events where you set price limit on entry. Like the grassroots motorsports challenge. It makes for a simple dividing line. If you have your own machine shop and fabrication shop, you can play. If not, your SOL, because every car there has under $2000 in parts, but always over >20,000usd in custom skilled labor in it. It would be an extremely unfair advantage for myself, and other folks who have resources to do exotic custom fabrication for cents of cost, where others would need to spend hundreds at fab shops.


I think the claimer rule fixes this problem pretty nicely.

Also, I think something like a 9c motor with a 1lbs bottle of water gravity fed from a hose to drip into the holes drilled into the side of the case would enable a 9c to have higher power limits than an x5. Have a line under the seat or somewhere that is taped or tucked up in a way that you can link or unkink as you see/smell/feel/bbq temp monitor the motor going above boiling point. The energy of turning 1 lbs of water to steam is way more than would ever be needed for cooling.

It's a race build, so it doesn't need to meet all the practical needs of commuter bike. A total loss drip cooling system, deep freezing the hub with
CO2, wrapping controllers in ice packs, etc etc are all options for racing situations. Gotta think outside the box a bit.

 

[liveforphysics]

Ok, I got an idea... it kinda goes against everything I personally want, but there does seem to be alot of pissing and moaning coming from guys who want to use x5 hubs, and I have agree that it does make it tough for them to hit 70lbs and keep a good sized battery (which to me seems like its time to find something lighter...but the x5 is a staple of bike performance history, so it should be involved.)

What about direct drive hubs get to be 75lbs or maybe 80lbs, and brushed direct drive hubs get to be 85lbs (or some similar weight differential).

Would something like that be a compromise solution that people could live with?

 

[AussieJester]

Dogman heres a setup perfect for you in the forsale
thread, will get you under the limit and some big
power on a full suss frame

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=19106

Luke..what is the hill got a pic of it? Bitumen or is it
dirt thang?

Definitely need to keep the weight capped IMO cost
i wouldn't cap this will limit alot of people producing their ultimate race bike.

KiM

 

[liveforphysics]

The whole hill climb hill is smooth good condition asphalt. It needs to be, if it were dirt, most fwd cars wouldn't be able to get up it. Lol

I'm going to take a US movie of the hill tomorrow when of get off work.

 

[SoSauty]

Cool, 2 simple rules and you just gotta be there to believe all the innovations e-bikers will come up with.

32 kg, functional pedals, (and possibly a $2000 USD claimer winner's bike)

My straw vote goes to Tiberus' simple rules; so clear they practically enforce themselves

Luke, will this 'Go Cart' track be all corners or does it have some significant straight aways? Seems a smooth track that twists and turns won't demand full suspension, plus pedalling may factor in, doesn't that also separate an e"bike" from an electric motorcycle Will weather be a factor up there?

 

[liveforphysics]

Well, today was a beautiful sunny day here. can't ever depend on good weather here though. There is an indoor kart track, and an outdoor kart track local to me. The outdoor track has a couple straits of 100m or so, with lots of curves, and a neat hill with a switchback area for some elevation change.

The indoor track is a 1/4th mile per lap smooth polished cement floor all laid out in a warehouse, so rain wouldnt matter.

The hill climb really wouldn't be bothered by rain. Its good condition smooth asphalt, with only gentle turns, so nobody would be having traction problems in wet or dry IMO.

Cool, 2 simple rules and you just gotta be there to believe all the innovations e-bikers will come up with.

32 kg, functional pedals, (and possibly a $2000 USD claimer for top 1-2-3 finishers)

My straw vote goes to Tiberus' simple rules; so clear they practically enforce themselves

Luke, will this 'Go Cart' track be all corners or does it have some significant straight aways? Seems a smooth track that twists and turns won't demand full suspension, plus pedalling may factor in, doesn't that also separate an e"bike" from an electric motorcycle Will weather be a factor up there?

 

[Thud]

I agree the op had a simple plan for a great race.
It needn't be any more than that.
But you see the bulk of the posts are more questions of how their bikes fit in the grand sceam or attempting to level the feild in hope it will spure interest. (experianced racers never ask the questions, they build a bike & argue its legality in tech inspection )
This could go on forever, & it does in every racing orginazation. Rules are revised every year. Some times in mid season if there is a safety issue.
I will plagerize some boiler plate rules for evaluation.

Class #1:
(name not important) formula 1 structure. (modified from OP)
1) minimum weight 18.2 kg (40 lbs) max weight 34kg (75 lbs) (would this get the 5305's on the track?)
2) must be a functional "Bicycle" with operating pedals& chain line. Derailer & multi speeds allowed.
3) Bicycle must have functioning brakes front & rear
4) Aerodynamic fairings & tails not to extend past a vertical line from front edge of front tire & a vertical line from the rear most edge of the rear tire. Wheel base not to exceed 55" measured at axel centers.
5)Race spec tires for all competitors: Maxix hookworms (or readily available tire TBD)
6)All batteries to be enclosed in a durable box capable of maintaing integrity of the cells in the event of a crash.
7)All bikes to be fitted with a "dead mans" switch capable of disconecting battery power from controller either directly Or through a ellectrical contactor.
8 ) Claiming price of winning bike-$2000.00 All claims must be filed within 30 minutes from race completion. Claims only allowed by competitors "in class"

Class #2 (the sportsmans class)
1) min weight 18.2 kg(40 LBS) max weight 41kg(90lbs)
2) Must be a functional "Bicycle" with operating pedals& chain line. Derailer & multi speeds allowed.
3) Hub motors ONLY.
4) limit voltage to 72.(or less, I think the average is 48v)
5) Tires must be reasonably freash with no major flatspots or wear visable.
6) no aerodynamics allowed
7) All batteries to be enclosed in a durable box capable of maintaing integrity of the cells in the event of a crash.
8 ) All bikes to be fitted with a "dead mans" switch capable of disconecting battery power from controller either directly Or through a ellectrical contactor.
claiming price-$1500. remaining details same as above.

Having the 2nd class releives the burden of a heavy expenditure on batteries for a race. performance should be spirited but reasonably legal, allowing the daily comuter bikes to come out & enjoy riding on a track, hanging out with the speed nuts & allow everyone to admire each others bikes & exchange info.

Specifying the tires is the only real feild "leveling/equilizing" item in the F1 class. (& may prove to be the most effective)

I feel that anyone who would like to give racing a try, could build a competitive/daily driver sportsman bike in the next year to compete on, & for less than the claiming price. Unless you go for a carbon fiber road frame....
The F1 class is for the few who have the resources & knowledge base to push the class to the very fedge of performance.
flame away.

 

[liveforphysics]

Can't do a spec tire unless you find a model that can actually cover the size range. For example, smart hubmotor guys are going to be doing lower turn-count motors with as small of tire OD as they can find. Maybe a 10" scooter rim welded right onto the spoke flange of a 5302 for example. The higher RPM they can get on the hubs, the more power and efficiency they can get, and on known-smooth surfaces, no reason to need a tire any larger than a kart tire diameter.

I agree the op had a simple plan for a great race.
It needn't be any more than that.
But you see the bulk of the posts are more questions of how their bikes fit in the grand sceam or attempting to level the feild in hope it will spure interest. (experianced racers never ask the questions, they build a bike & argue its legality in tech inspection )
This could go on forever, & it does in every racing orginazation. Rules are revised every year. Some times in mid season if there is a safety issue.
I will plagerize some boiler plate rules for evaluation.

Class #1:
(name not important) formula 1 structure. (modified from OP)
1) minimum weight 18.2 kg (40 lbs) max weight 34kg (75 lbs) (would this get the 5305's on the track?)
2) must be a functional "Bicycle" with operating pedals& chain line. Derailer & multi speeds allowed.
3) Bicycle must have functioning brakes front & rear
4) Aerodynamic fairings & tails not to extend past a vertical line from front edge of front tire & a vertical line from the rear most edge of the rear tire. Wheel base not to exceed 55" measured at axel centers.
5)Race spec tires for all competitors: Maxix hookworms (or readily available tire TBD)
6)All batteries to be enclosed in a durable box capable of maintaing integrity of the cells in the event of a crash.
7)All bikes to be fitted with a "dead mans" switch capable of disconecting battery power from controller either directly Or through a ellectrical contactor.
8 ) Claiming price of winning bike-$2000.00 All claims must be filed within 30 minutes from race completion. Claims only allowed by competitors "in class"

Class #2 (the sportsmans class)
1) min weight 18.2 kg(40 LBS) max weight 41kg(90lbs)
2) Must be a functional "Bicycle" with operating pedals& chain line. Derailer & multi speeds allowed.
3) Hub motors ONLY.
4) limit voltage to 72.(or less, I think the average is 48v)
5) Tires must be reasonably freash with no major flatspots or wear visable.
6) no aerodynamics allowed
7) All batteries to be enclosed in a durable box capable of maintaing integrity of the cells in the event of a crash.
8 ) All bikes to be fitted with a "dead mans" switch capable of disconecting battery power from controller either directly Or through a ellectrical contactor.
claiming price-$1500. remaining details same as above.

Having the 2nd class releives the burden of a heavy expenditure on batteries for a race. performance should be spirited but reasonably legal, allowing the daily comuter bikes to come out & enjoy riding on a track, hanging out with the speed nuts & allow everyone to admire each others bikes & exchange info.

Specifying the tires is the only real feild "leveling/equilizing" item in the F1 class. (& may prove to be the most effective)

I feel that anyone who would like to give racing a try, could build a competitive/daily driver sportsman bike in the next year to compete on, & for less than the claiming price. Unless you go for a carbon fiber road frame....
The F1 class is for the few who have the resources & knowledge base to push the class to the very fedge of performance.
flame away.

 

[AussieJester]

smart hubmotor guys

^^oxymoron? :lol: ::ducks::

KiM

 

[Tiberius]

Thud,

Some good ideas in there, especially the safety rules. I would add a battery mounting rule: they should be firmly secured, not duct taped in position. I quite like the idea of a sportsman's class. Maybe we have to accept that there are two types of competitor and we can't accommodate them both in the same race.

But before we get too deep into the 70, 75, 80 lbs discussion, can we check what is the weight of a x5 motor and what typical weights are x5 bikes coming out at?

Remember that if we go from 70 to 80 lbs, that extra 10 lbs allows the top people to run an extra kW. So it pushes up the cost and it widens the gap between fast and slow, which may not be what people intended. It might be better to make the x5 commuters take their fenders off.

Nick

 

[liveforphysics]

Before we can go splitting an event into classes, we gotta get an eye for the number of people interested in the competition before we can split up classes. We've all been to events where you end up with classes that have two or three people total in them, it totally spoils the dynamics of a race event, and you end up just choosing who stands on which side of the podium.

On the other hand, if we get a field of 30+bikes, it would be almost critical to divide into multiple classes, just for the logistics of track/hill use etc.

 

[dogman dan]

Well, it has only been a few days. But nobody has posted yet they'd like to run thier bike, and said thier 5304 bike weighs 80 pounds, or whatever. Most of my hubmotor bikes have been over 70 pounds, but that includes commuter stuff like spare tubes and tools. I have an x5 laying about the garage, so I'll weigh it, and a bike, and see what I come up with FYI. If a strong x5 bike can come in close to the 70 pounds then fine.

So maybe it doesn't matter at all! Us smart hubmotor guys know we'll lose to the RC motors anyway right? I totally agree with the concept of some kind of limitation to keep it a E bicycle race. But you organize the race, you set the rules you like. Done deal, 70 pound bikes. If they want it, guys with a 72v x5 bike can hold their own race.

 

[liveforphysics]

Well, it has only been a few days. But nobody has posted yet they'd like to run thier bike, and said thier 5304 bike weighs 80 pounds, or whatever. Most of my hubmotor bikes have been over 70 pounds, but that includes commuter stuff like spare tubes and tools. I have an x5 laying about the garage, so I'll weigh it, and a bike, and see what I come up with FYI. If a strong x5 bike can come in close to the 70 pounds then fine.

That would be some great data to get for us Dogman, thank you.

So maybe it doesn't matter at all! Us smart hubmotor guys know we'll lose to the RC motors anyway right? I totally agree with the concept of some kind of limitation to keep it a E bicycle race. But you organize the race, you set the rules you like. Done deal, 70 pound bikes. If they want it, guys with a 72v x5 bike can hold their own race.

I think Nick (Tiberius) plans to fly over from the UK and win the whole event with a front 9C hubmotor and low C-rate LiFePO4 batteries (or something similar). I also think it's entirely possible he will do exactly that. IMO, the only event that RC bikes will have a massive advantage is the hill climb. Yet... I think a 530x series hub motor with the smallest rim/tire combo possible mounted to it has as good of a chance of winning as an RC setup.

Im personally OK with giving direct-drive hubmotors an extra 5-10lbs weight advantage, and brushed hubmotors perhaps a 15lbs weight advantage. But before we get into matters like that, please take some weights for us of an x5 bike setup. And keep in mind, if it's covered in fenders and lights and reflectors and power monitoring and BMS's and chargers and bags etc etc

 

[Thud]

Good morning,
Tiberious,
It's definatly to early to determine a "final draft" of the rules. Good catch on securing batts to the frame.
I just grabbed #s form the air regarding weight. & added a min. so no one is building too light for saftey.

Does anyone know the weight of a Worksman Newsboy? A Surley "big dummy" all built will weigh 18+kg before adding any electrics.
oops-dogman posted & may have negated all this speculation.
I suggest we find out the actual weight of the "big hub" kits & add it to the heavyest frame set comercialy avalable. This would exclude no one form F1 class. (other than spending heavily on bateries & charging equipment)
The Key ellememt determining success to any event is "turnout". I am open to any ideas to encourage participation. Even if its just a simple meet & greet bike gathering with the race as a "distraction" to the core event.

By identifying the bulk of the e-bike population (which I think is the hub conversion crowd) with a sportsman class I hope it may encourage more participation.
I bet the 48v ping is on a lot of bikes out there & a few guys who would like to ride around the track,that have zero interest in locking handlebars with anyone. They are the core of this e-bike movement.

Luke said:

Can't do a spec tire unless you find a model that can actually cover the size range. For example, smart hubmotor guys are going to be doing lower turn-count motors with as small of tire OD as they can find. Maybe a 10" scooter rim

Hookworms are available down to 16" rims.
I will fall back to Nick's OP statment the the intent is a "bicycle" race. You & myself are partly responcible for the continuous crossing of that line.
I really think this along with the functioning pedals will be the only thing that keeps the dinstinction between bicycles & light motorcycles.
I like the idea of a spec tire just for the F1 class as it will invite further inovation, & keep a riders skills as a major function of the winning set up.

But like dogman said. If you organize it, you get to say yea/nay on all these "helpfull suggestions"

 

[John in CR]

All I have to say is the Costa Rica version will have no rules. Instead the race will be like the Tour de France with a number of difference stages, all very different, ranging from beach rides (small streams to cross), off road over some mountains (maybe mud depending on rain or not), a track race, and anything else we can think of. If the group wants two classes that's fine and that would be based on weight without batteries.

They're all a bunch of electric motorcycles anyway, so stop trying to pretend they're ebikes, and all the rule stuff is sounding too much the pussies on the drag race show, Pinks, trying to negotiate some advantage before agreeing to race. If you want to call them ebikes and make up a bunch of rules, then just make it one rule...street legal. It wouldn't make for thrilling racing, but there sure would a lot less chance of someone getting hurt. That would exclude the guys really wanting to go for it, and no one wants that, so street legal and unlimited for two classes. Then the guys wanting to go for the fun and fellowship have a place, as do the serious guys.

Frankly, I don't understand why the guys who are really serious don't build something to go kick the shit out of those big pig electric motorcycles that are racing. They all look heavy, and almost all of them are using brushed motors...and no 2wd, isn't 2wd worth a shot?

Alternative to a bunch of rules, just 1 rule:
If you really want to put everyone on an even playing field here's an idea for you. The race distance is known by all in advance, and pedals are made non-functional by whatever means (It's not an HPV event, it's electric). The only rule is everyone gets the same amount of juice using a modified WattsUp or whatever with a relay that cuts off power from the battery at whatever the Wh limit for that race.

Get the event popular enough and then have different types of contest events some of which are unlimited. Drag race, circuit races, distance contests (one by time and one by energy limit), hill climb, tractor pull, cargo transport, and others.

 

[Miles]

Alternative to a bunch of rules, just 1 rule:
If you really want to put everyone on an even playing field here's an idea for you. The race distance is known by all in advance, and pedals are made non-functional by whatever means (It's not an HPV event, it's electric). The only rule is everyone gets the same amount of juice using a modified WattsUp or whatever with a relay that cuts off power from the battery at whatever the Wh limit for that race.

That's what I was suggesting, here:

The other limit that might still be worth considering is an energy one (battery pack standardisation/weight seems too complicated, though) - the organisers supply a meter with a cut-off, to give a fixed dose. Probably need to factor in the rider weight, though...

Certainly worth trying, sometime..

Not sure why you think it's necessary to disable the pedals, though.........

 

[Icewrench]

Hot off the scale x5 with 26 inch rim and tire 30 lbs.
Cells for Death Race battery 35 lbs.
I`ll build something different for Luke`s party.
Maybe limit hot off charger voltage?

 

[John in CR]

Not sure why you think it's necessary to disable the pedals, though.........

That would be just if the race is an energy limit one. If the races are fairly short though I guess pedals wouldn't be too much advantage for the harder core cyclists. The point was to really put everyone on a level playing field, which was what they were trying to come up with a book of rules to create.

Sorry I missed your post suggesting the electric wh cutoff. I think that way is far better than used in electrathons where they use lead only and a weight limit for the batteries.

 

[dogman dan]

You got that right John, most of us are riding lightweight motorcycles. But a 70 pound weight does keep out a zero.

I just weighed this bike, with some fat sand tires and gobs of slime. 39 pounds.

My 5304 with fat 24" rim, tire, and as always in the land of thorns, gobs of slime, 30 pounds.

Yay! I get 1 pound for the battery. Oops, I suppose a safe way to carry the battery would weigh at least a pound, and then theres those little items you can't do without, like a controller, throttle. :wink: I guess at least one of the wheels on the bike would dissapear, but in any case it would be tough to keep an x5 suspension bike under 70 pounds. Maybe give a guy with fs a few more pounds?

My new 5 ah 20s turnigy pack including some extra wire and connectors, and a protective box weighs just over 6 pounds.

 

[John in CR]

Miles,

How about this to help even it up for us poor out of shape guys? Disabling the pedals gets you some extra juice.

 

[dogman dan]

I disagree that limiting battery watthours would be that hard to do. Obviously lead is out for racing, and even nicad and nimh are unlikely to show up. But we all pretty much know what the nominal watthours of different cells are, for fatpacks, pings, headways, A123's, and turnigy. So just decide what size in watthours of turnigy you want to allow, and everybody running something else has to adjust to that number. We have enough experince here to look at the box, and go, no way x watthours of a123 is that big, pop it open dude, and let's start counting cells. Once you know how many paralell, you just need a voltmeter.

The one think I cannot see though, is crowning somebody world ebike champion in a race that excludes bikes with an x5, unless they run it on a tiny kids bike frame. Ya'll do that and I'll just start calling the winner the bantamweight ebike world champ. A limit is needed, but excluding bikes with an x5 and full suspension is not a world charmpionship. Not everybody has the budget to build a special bike for this, some will want to run what they already have, a pretty sweet homemade steatlh bomber.

I totally agree though, that whatever you come up with for the rule should not be aimed at leveling the playing field. That's what Safe wants to do with his 1000 watt class. It's one approach, but not for a world champ trophy.

 

[liveforphysics]

So give direct drive hubmotors 10 extra pounds? Does that make everyone happy?

 

[John in CR]

So give direct drive hubmotors 10 extra pounds? Does that make everyone happy?

Not when I would want to run 2wd, each a 30lb wheel. I'm unlikely to attend, so don't make any rules on my behalf though.

 

[Miles]

Miles,

How about this to help even it up for us poor out of shape guys? Disabling the pedals gets you some extra juice.

Better start training, then...