Ebike Initial Thoughts - buy new or buy a kit to convert an old bike?

[Madmarcus]

I've got the ebike bug. I've moved to an area with decent bike paths and would like to be able to get out on them. I'm also older than ever (as we all are) I wouldn't mind having a little assist - it's over used but the bionic legs phrase that Youtubers use is fairly appealing.

Terrain - Paved bike paths and side roads mostly. Some well maintained flat dirt/gravel paths (combo walking, biking, and horses mot mountain bike trails). Most riding will be fairly flat but some hills especially at the beginning and end of rides will be 15-20% grades in sections (averaging about 10% over a half mile).
Speeds - I want to recreate biking back when I was 20 not ride a mini-motorcycle. Cruising at around 12-15 mph with a top speed for 20 mph is fine.
Weight - I do not have a garage or driveway and will have to carry the bike in and out of the house every time. I would prefer a light setup. Mostly I have been planning on accepting less range to reduce battery weight.

From this I've been seriously looking at the TongSheng TSDZ2B 500W mid drive kit. I like the idea of torque pedal assist. A rear hub with torque assist might be interesting also but I know less about them. Or of course I could buy a premade ebike either a random brand or a more expensive one from a better quality bike manufacturer.

Finally, for completeness sake, I'll throw in the silly question. I have a Pacific Elite 3.1 cheap frame. It's old but practically unused and with new brake pads and tires it would be more or less as good as new (low bar I know). Would it be of any use with either a mid drive kit or a rear hub given my modest power needs? I wish I still have the Giant I was using during Covid but no such luck.

 

[99t4]

What's the budget? Need that info before we can give any meaningful suggestions.

How long are the 20% grade sections?

Weight limit (for carrying)?

I like the idea of torque pedal assist.

It can be a very appealing idea. I did have a well-integrated torque pedal assist ebike in my stable (others were/are throttle (with cruise control) or PAS + Throttle. Torque pedal assist provided an enchanting sensation at first but overall not a "must-have" feature.

 

[Madmarcus]

Torque pedal assist provided an enchanting sensation at first but overall not a "must-have" feature.

Why?

More specifically why should I bother giving details about expected grade to be encountered, weight preferences and especially budget when you take the single most specific thing that I list as a requirement and tell me I'm wrong without explanation? Now you might well be able to convince me that I don't really want torque assist but it's going to take more than what you have said.

I specifically did not list a budget. In ever hobbyist forum I have ever been in a listed budget leads to responses at the top of the budget and with some people suggesting pushing just a little higher. I want to look at this in the other direction - what is the cheapest reasonable way to meet my desired needs?

How long are the 20% grade sections?

Who knows and it varies by route? Basically all the routes to get onto the top of the ridge are 0.5 mile at 10% grade. Some have sections of 20% within that while others are closer to the average 10% over the entire length. Most of my rides will start and end at the top of the ridge without too much elevation change other than at the two ends of the route. In a few cases I may end up going up and down twice each on a trip.

Weight limit (for carrying)?

Feel free to ignore weight if you would like. This is going to be a very subjective measure and is mostly important if there are general categories such as a rear hub is always going to weigh less than a comparably performing mid drive or the reverse.

On the other hand if you mean what weight the bike would be carrying; I'm 185 lbs and wouldn't plan on carrying more than 25 lbs of stuff and even that would be unusual.

 

[E-HP]

I've got the ebike bug. I've moved to an area with decent bike paths and would like to be able to get out on them. I'm also older than ever (as we all are) I wouldn't mind having a little assist - it's over used but the bionic legs phrase that Youtubers use is fairly appealing.

Terrain - Paved bike paths and side roads mostly. Some well maintained flat dirt/gravel paths (combo walking, biking, and horses mot mountain bike trails). Most riding will be fairly flat but some hills especially at the beginning and end of rides will be 15-20% grades in sections (averaging about 10% over a half mile).
Speeds - I want to recreate biking back when I was 20 not ride a mini-motorcycle. Cruising at around 12-15 mph with a top speed for 20 mph is fine.
Weight - I do not have a garage or driveway and will have to carry the bike in and out of the house every time. I would prefer a light setup. Mostly I have been planning on accepting less range to reduce battery weight.

From this I've been seriously looking at the TongSheng TSDZ2B 500W mid drive kit. I like the idea of torque pedal assist. A rear hub with torque assist might be interesting also but I know less about them. Or of course I could buy a premade ebike either a random brand or a more expensive one from a better quality bike manufacturer.

Finally, for completeness sake, I'll throw in the silly question. I have a Pacific Elite 3.1 cheap frame. It's old but practically unused and with new brake pads and tires it would be more or less as good as new (low bar I know). Would it be of any use with either a mid drive kit or a rear hub given my modest power needs? I wish I still have the Giant I was using during Covid but no such luck.

You don't mention range expectations. Do you have to carry the bike upstairs to get it in the house? You can get a battery that you can remove to help when carrying it.

If the majority of riding is on flat paths, then I wouldn't recommend a mid drive. Maintenance is a consideration with mid drives, and if there's much stop and go, the shifting is a hassle (at least to me, because I'm lazy).
That leaves a front or rear hub motor, and then deciding on direct drive or geared.
You donor bike has the advantage of a huge triangle, that makes mounting components and the battery easy. It doesn't have disc brakes, and you don't need them, but may be a consideration in a future upgrade, at which point you can select a disc ready frame and fork.

I was pretty much in the same boat as you, with a similar frame, but I have really long steep hills, plus I wanted to do a lot of offroad riding on pretty steep terrain. But, because I'm not only lazy, but cheap, I bought the cheapest 1000w direct drive kit on ebay to start my build (somehow the 1000W DD kits are always the cheapest kits you can find). My frame was older, an old straight tube chromoly frame, but similarly with no disc brake support. That version could climb any hill I encountered, including 25%+ dirt hills (statorade added to the hub for cooling). Top speed was 23mph, and I rode most of the time between 18mph-20mph. I upgraded the frame and brakes as one of my first upgrades, then upped the battery voltage a swapped out the controller. Pages 1-6 in my build thread used that motor, page 7 and beyond are after a motor upgrade (the first pic on the page is the current configuration, but if you scroll down you'll see the original).

My econo-e-bike

Current Configuration (04-18-24) of my e-bike: Motor: Previous: MXUS 1000W slow wind 9C clone, 26" generic rim Current: Leaf 1500W 5T, 24" Halo SAS rim Controller: Previous: 18 FET KT 30A Sine Wave 18 FET 7kW PowerVelocity controller Current: No name "80A" Sine Wave w/3-speed switch, cruise...

endless-sphere.com

The initial build was great, and I put many thousands of miles on it. It used a KT controller, that doesn't support torque sensors in stock form, although there are a couple long forum threads on open source firmware for the KT's that support torque sensors. Still, the KT uses something called imitation torque control, which is more or less a power based PAS, that feels pretty natural (compared to speed based), without going to an actual torque sensor. With a direct drive motor, there is zero maintenance, except for normal bike maintenance. When I was running regen, I never changed a brake pad for years, lube my chain at around 6 months if at all. The only maintenance was changing tires. I have a torque sensor that I'll finally install in the next month or so, more as a novelty than as a requirement, so I'm sure it will be a fun addition.
I'm installing a mid drive on my full suspension bike this weekend, TSDZ8. That bike will be for steep offroad single track riding. It's funny that I mentioned building a mid drive in my very first post, but I'm just getting around to it 7 years later.

There's also a bit of info on my newb faq that's linked in my signature, that may provide other considerations.

 

[amberwolf]

Some thoughts and considerations to keep in mind, below:

Feel free to ignore weight if you would like. This is going to be a very subjective measure and is mostly important if there are general categories such as a rear hub is always going to weigh less than a comparably performing mid drive or the reverse.

On the other hand if you mean what weight the bike would be carrying; I'm 185 lbs and wouldn't plan on carrying more than 25 lbs of stuff and even that would be unusual.

The weight is important because power required to go up a slope is determined by weight, speed, and slope angle. (also involves ground conditions and tires / rolling resistance but the other is usually much more important for most terrains).

If interested, you can see how this works by using the trip simulator at ebikes.ca, (or other calculators or simulators on the web in general). A small change in slope, weight, or speed, can make a signfiicant difference in power required to do that.

Your system will have to have, at minimum, the power required for the worst-case conditions.


Then there's the battery, which is the most important part of your system, since it must supply all the power under every condition for as long as you need the system to run, and must also do this under the worst case conditions you will encounter, for the entire length of time you will use the bike (years, usually).

You'll use more battery capacity the more power is used for longer, and the system will heat up more the longer it has to output higher power, so the length of hte slopes matters, too.

Battery capacity required for the job depends on the speeds, the slopes, the time on each, the weights, and how long you want it to supply all that for you, so the total range you need out of it. Weight and size of the battery depends on that. Capability required of the battery depends on what the system will have to do.

Because batteries decrease in capacity and capability as they age, then to do the same job for the whole lifetime they must be sized larger than necessary (perhaps 25-50% depending on the cells chosen, conditions they're used in, and lifetime expected).

 

[Madmarcus]

I know I didn't mention range. Mostly because I haven't done enough hunting on battery costs, sizes, and (because I haven't fixed on the frame yet) mounting options to really give a great idea. I expect most uses to be less than 20 miles but back when I was biking I was happy doing 2+ hour rides. Would be retired body be up to that even on an ebike? I don't know but 30 miles is within the range of possibilities. While I think about some longer trips (40-45 miles) I don't want to plan on them in my initial battery purchase.

If the majority of riding is on flat paths, then I wouldn't recommend a mid drive. Maintenance is a consideration with mid drives, and if there's much stop and go, the shifting is a hassle (at least to me, because I'm lazy).

Interesting and certainly maintenance is not something that I see generally mentioned. I'll have to specifically look into that. Certainly I've seen a wide range of opinions on mid drive kits being easy to put on to a frame or mid drive kits being terribly finicky to set running well.

Oddly enough I read articles on how to ride a mid drive ebike and it sounds natural. Downshift when stopping so that you aren't starting in a high gear, don't shift gears when pedaling (or at least when using the motor), and don't shift by more than one cog at a time. That's how I learned to ride a 10 speed road bike in the first place except that a mid drive only has one shift lever. I don't drive a manual car a mid drive bike feels like the manual of ebikes and finally makes me understand why some people are so passionate about manual cars.

 

[E-HP]

I know I didn't mention range. Mostly because I haven't done enough hunting on battery costs, sizes, and (because I haven't fixed on the frame yet) mounting options to really give a great idea. I expect most uses to be less than 20 miles but back when I was biking I was happy doing 2+ hour rides. Would be retired body be up to that even on an ebike? I don't know but 30 miles is within the range of possibilities. While I think about some longer trips (40-45 miles) I don't want to plan on them in my initial battery purchase.



Interesting and certainly maintenance is not something that I see generally mentioned. I'll have to specifically look into that. Certainly I've seen a wide range of opinions on mid drive kits being easy to put on to a frame or mid drive kits being terribly finicky to set running well.

Oddly enough I read articles on how to ride a mid drive ebike and it sounds natural. Downshift when stopping so that you aren't starting in a high gear, don't shift gears when pedaling (or at least when using the motor), and don't shift by more than one cog at a time. That's how I learned to ride a 10 speed road bike in the first place except that a mid drive only has one shift lever. I don't drive a manual car a mid drive bike feels like the manual of ebikes and finally makes me understand why some people are so passionate about manual cars.

I learned to drive on a stick shift. At 5 I drove my dad's tractor up a tree, because I had figured out how to stand on the clutch and put it into gear, while he was working on sprinklers. He didn't leave it running after that. I never did figure out how he shifted to the higher gears, luckily. The first time I drove an automatic was in drivers ed class in high school. I had a lot of driving under my belt by then, since my dad let me drive whenever we'd go fishing (every weekend). Then, when I got older and lazy, I switch to automatic, since by then, I could just buy a bigger engine to make up for the sportiness lost by switching from manual to automatic. I was passionate about driving a stick, until I could afford more power. It's the same with ebikes. Power solves most issues. Gearing on a mid drive compensates for less power. Fundamentally, the amount of power required to climb a hill is based on the mass being lifted vertically, and the rate/speed it's being lifted, so mid drive gearing allows a mass to be lifted at a slower speed and therefore with less power. Hence why I'm building a mid drive, since there are a lot of technical trails where you can't ride fast without dying. Sure, shifting on a pedal bike feels natural, but only because you became used to it, because you have to shift, not because you want to.

 

[99t4]

Why?

Why did I give you a contrasting viewpoint about the desirability of torque pedal assist? Just to provide another datapoint for your consideration for prioritizing your requirements. From someone who has BTDT. Likely you may receive contrasting viewpoints from others. Hopefully from that you can make a better decision? As in more (helpful) data = better result. Unless you disagree with that?

More specifically why should I bother giving details about expected grade to be encountered, weight preferences and especially budget when you take the single most specific thing that I list as a requirement and tell me I'm wrong without explanation? Now you might well be able to convince me that I don't really want torque assist but it's going to take more than what you have said.

Knowing the worst case grade and length is the only way we can make sensible equipment suggestions. Otherwise you might go with a small geared hub that would be fine on level ground but might not get you up your hills, or worse, burn itself up in the process.

Let me clarify about my statement about torque pedal assist. I have ridden thousands of miles on a well integrated torque pedal assist. Yes it did provide that seamless smile-inducing bionic leg sensation. But guess what? My other (simpler, less expensive) simple throttle or PAS (or both) systems (also thousands of miles) give me 90 - 95% of that seamless assist sensation anyway. Gets me there. Smiling every time. All the time! So you may find that you can be happy without the torque pedal assist feature.

I specifically did not list a budget. In ever hobbyist forum I have ever been in a listed budget leads to responses at the top of the budget and with some people suggesting pushing just a little higher. I want to look at this in the other direction - what is the cheapest reasonable way to meet my desired needs?

Look at it from the other side. How do you think the knowledgeable helper feels when they repeatedly give thoughtful reasonable suggestions that are often shot down because---- "too expensive!"

I want to look at this in the other direction - what is the cheapest reasonable way to meet my desired needs?

The cheapest has been proven over and over again unsatisfactory in many regards, including quality, performance, reliability, repairability, and (most importantly?) safety.

If indeed as you say...

In ever hobbyist forum I have ever been in a listed budget leads to responses at the top of the budget and with some people suggesting pushing just a little higher.

...then why not give your budget minus that little bit (so-- pre-compensated) and you will get a response that is just right!

I expect most uses to be less than 20 miles but back when I was biking I was happy doing 2+ hour rides. Would be retired body be up to that even on an ebike?

With conditioning could be possible? Especially with rest breaks? Comfortable seat and riding posture help plenty!

Feel free to ignore weight if you would like. This is going to be a very subjective measure and is mostly important if there are general categories such as a rear hub is always going to weigh less than a comparably performing mid drive or the reverse.

I was referring to total weight of the bike itself as you stated you needed to carry it into the house. That seemed like a necessary priority. If we ignore it you may end up with something you cannot comfortably carry.

So far I'm leaning toward a middrive setup for you, especially as you have some steep hills (downshifting can really help here) and understand not to shift under power. As long as you don't mind the shortened maintenance schedule for chain/chainwheel/sprockets replacements and possible install and setup difficulties (depends on the bike's BB topology).

Suggest you look into (well-known) TongSheng TSDZ2 issues. They have been known for poor tolerances, axle breakage, etc. Bafang might be better?

 

[99t4]

I have a Pacific Elite 3.1 cheap frame. It's old but practically unused and with new brake pads and tires it would be more or less as good as new (low bar I know). Would it be of any use with either a mid drive kit or a rear hub given my modest power needs?

Is it comfortable and does it fit you well? That is most important. Can you post some photos, especially clear ones of the BB area and dropouts?

 

[Madmarcus]

The weight is important because power required to go up a slope is determined by weight, speed, and slope angle. (also involves ground conditions and tires / rolling resistance but the other is usually much more important for most terrains).

I agree. I was being flippant about weight in my response to 99t4. For a full build I'd want to be much more analytic but I'm starting from the idea of I'd like to get back into biking in general not with particular streets or paths in mind.

I'm looking for the general trade offs (mostly weight and price) between what I see as 3 options
1 A 500W mid drive kit (so Bafang or TongShen) build that seems like it would fit or slightly exceed my desired performance
2 A comprable performance (given my modest performance desires) hub drive build
3 A commercial ebike that again has similar performance
and perhaps 4 proof that even a 500W motor is going to be overkill for my limited desires and there is a ebike that will meet my needs with a smaller motor (although given that 250W kits don't seem to be cheaper than 500W kits this would almost have to be a commercial ebike which means option 3 and 4 are likely to be the same option.

I know full well that Watts isn't a perfect measure but the 250, 500, 750, 1000W sales points are broadly comprable between brands in the same catagory (mid, DD, geared hub). Similarly it makes sense, to me at least, that you should be able to compare systems once you hold desired performance constant and get some general rules of thumb comparing the three options.

 

[Madmarcus]

The cheapest has been proven over and over again unsatisfactory in many regards, including quality, performance, reliability, repairability, and (most importantly?) safety.

I'm going to answer out of order because this might be to most important point. I can't think of a single time I have researched something that meets my thought out needs (I'm excluding impulse buys) and been unsatisfied. I have had that opposite problem and been unsatisfied by buying more than I really needed. I don't want to know the best ebike under $X I want to know the cheapest option to reliably meet my needs. If that's higher than my budget I simply won't buy an ebike.

Look at it from the other side. How do you think the knowledgeable helper feels when they repeatedly give thoughtful reasonable suggestions that are often shot down because---- "too expensive!"

I don't know how that feels to you. Personally as the knowlegable helper in other situations I have always felt fine about that responce if I know that I presented a good solution (safe, reliable) that met the stated needs. "Too expensive" then might lead to a different conversation about which requirements might be changed.

Now back to torque assist versus throttle or cadence assist for a sec. I'm still not convinced but perhaps I have a better question. Of the three systems which one feels the most like riding a non-electric bike? Practically everything I read about throttle or PAS ends up describing an experience that sounds like the pedaling is almost completely divorced from the motion of the bike. I can see how that could still be a very smile inducing situation but in a different way. At this point in time what I really want is the feeling of riding a bike with a couple of mph more flat road speed and a boost in climbing ability.

It's too late tonight to go out and take pictures so I'll leave things about the Pacifica frame until tomorrow.

 

[Madmarcus]

An interesting thing, to me at least, is that I've never driven a manual car (manual tractors yes).

Sure, shifting on a pedal bike feels natural, but only because you became used to it, because you have to shift, not because you want to.

I wonder if I have an unusual use case for an ebike in that I want to bike for exercise but would like the ability to be slightly faster and able to climb steeper or longer hills. I'm looking for an ebike that is as close as possible to a standard pedal bike because I do like responding to differing conditions through changing my pedaling and changing gears.

One system I haven't mentioned in this thread is that I almost like the Kepler friction drive mentioned on this site for being light and possibly able to be set up to only be engaged when you need it. That way I could have a small battery pack (light) and only engage the friction drive when I wanted to power up a hill but otherwise treat the bike as a standard bike. If only it didn't rub on the tire!

 

[docw009]

I wonder if I have an unusual use case for an ebike in that I want to bike for exercise but would like the ability to be slightly faster and able to climb steeper or longer hills. I'm looking for an ebike that is as close as possible to a standard pedal bike because I do like responding to differing conditions through changing my pedaling and changing gears.

I suppose you ride something like this? You like shifting and want a bike that coasts forever.

I'm an old guy, starting ebiking in my 60's. I owned bikes like the above, and rode few hundred miles a year. Ten years ago, I got my wife an ebike so she would ride more. A few weeks later, I did a cheapo rear wheel conversion on my kids old steel Trek. I picked a 500W geared motor because I wanted to pedal and coast. That became a hobby where I 've converted a dozen or more bikes to electric. Mostly beaters. Some should have been left alone,

It is less money, to buy an inexpensive ebike vs converting the above, I believe you can probably find a mid drive for around $1200 these days. I've seen some really great deals on clearance ebike. My nephew picked up a new Vitesse Flair last winter for $300. It's a lightweight rear hub with torque sensor, Only tradeoff is it has a 20 mile battery in the frame, but it could be fitted with an aux bottle battery (DIY mod) to double that range. Trouble is, most people can't wait around for these deals. I think you can get a decent hub motor bike for under $1000. All of this assume you can adjust brakes, fix flat tires, tune a derailleur.

 

[Madmarcus]

I suppose you ride something like this? You like shifting and want a bike that coasts forever.View attachment 369518

It is less money, to buy an inexpensive ebike vs converting the above,

That's the bike in question although I can't quite claim I ride it. TL;DR I inherited it from my FIL and rode it with my kids some. Then I got busy, the kids stopped riding their bikes, and so on. I know it fits me ok I have no great love for it. Really it's simply the one bike I have around. My last real biking during Covid was with a completely different. bike that I couldn't reasonably bring back from Korea. The other base alternative I've looked into is buying one of the many 15+ year old Trek bikes available locally between $50-80.

If I could find a deal on something like the Vitesse Flare on sale I'd be interested but mostly what I'm seeing are sketchy seeming marketplace offers or LBS that don't have anything electric on sale or used.

 

[E-HP]

Now back to torque assist versus throttle or cadence assist for a sec. I'm still not convinced but perhaps I have a better question. Of the three systems which one feels the most like riding a non-electric bike?

A geared hub motor or mid drive with the power turned off feels the closest to a non-electric bike.

 

[stancecoke]

Of the three systems which one feels the most like riding a non-electric bike?

Of course the system that controls the motor power proportional to the riders effort. All other systems are moped-like.
But there are not many DIY systems, that are compatible with a torquesensor.
I hope there will be shops, that offer the new Lishui system with the KCLAMBER cassette integrated torquesensor soon. It will be a milestone.

 

[Madmarcus]

A geared hub motor or mid drive with the power turned off feels the closest to a non-electric bike.

It is a little odd to think but a geared hub with throttle and PAS set to zero might be an interesting option. Treat it as a normal bike except use the throttle for steep hills. Probably not great as the times I wanted to use it would be the times that would stress the motor so probably wouldn't save much on weight of the motor and battery.

If you don't have a throttle can you turn the power on and off on the fly or is that something that you need to stop to adjust?

 

[Madmarcus]

I hope there will be shops, that offer the new Lishui system with the KCLAMBER cassette integrated torquesensor soon. It will be a milestone.

That does look interesting.

 

[E-HP]

It is a little odd to think but a geared hub with throttle and PAS set to zero might be an interesting option. Treat it as a normal bike except use the throttle for steep hills. Probably not great as the times I wanted to use it would be the times that would stress the motor so probably wouldn't save much on weight of the motor and battery.

If you don't have a throttle can you turn the power on and off on the fly or is that something that you need to stop to adjust?

Many/most controllers have a “0” assist level, so you just toggle to zero for no assist or up to the amount of assist you want.

 

[docw009]

How does cadence work?. I prefer the KT controllers for my hubmotors because they are current based. Each assist level is allocated a certain wattage. Most ebikes use around 100-120 watts to go 12 mph. When you reach that speed, power is held constant. If you pedal harder, you go faster. Slack off, and the motion of the pedals (ghost pedalling) will maintain that speed. This applies to the higher assist levels too, Thius, if you pedal right near the top of the power rnage, you can add to the bike's speed and it feels somewhat natural.

There are also speed based controllers. They use wheel diameter and motor rpm to determine speed and set speed limits for each assist level. Many will kill the motor power when you hit that speed. It's kind of unnatural to be accellerating under power and boom you hit the linit and lose the motor. To get around it, you must shift power levels along with your gears. I didn't ride my speed based controller long enough to see if I could find a balance where both me and the motor worked together, I just got rid of it,

Most, not all controllers have a zero assist level where the throttle works and you can feather in power while pedalling manually, Some of them, you have to turn off the bike ehicj is unwieldy, waiting for the bike to power up so you have throttle, I think how a cadence bike feels depends on how fast you ride. If you're pumping along over 20 mph, you probably don't care.

After riding a half dozen cadence sensor conversions, I did a TSDZ2 conversion on a steel 10 speed bike and initially found it very weak relative to my other ebikes, I wasn't able or ready to push the pedals hard enough to ge much power out of it, I eventually reloaded it with 3rd party firmware and that reallocated the motor's limited power to lower pedal torque for this old man's liking, Liked it enough to convert one for my wife. She is neither an athlete or a hard core biker, but she really enjoys her TSDZ2, She says it's effortless in its current tune, She put 1700 miles on it last year, plus an additional 500 miles on her hub motor bike, riding local bike paths with me.

I hesitate to recommend a TSDZ2 because of the need for better firmware, Many people claim they like it as is, but I wonder if they've ridden other ebikes, But with OSF firmware, it's a nice motor.

 

[Madmarcus]

How does cadence work?. I prefer the KT controllers for my hubmotors because they are current based. Each assist level is allocated a certain wattage. Most ebikes use around 100-120 watts to go 12 mph. When you reach that speed, power is held constant. If you pedal harder, you go faster. Slack off, and the motion of the pedals (ghost pedalling) will maintain that speed. This applies to the higher assist levels too, Thius, if you pedal right near the top of the power rnage, you can add to the bike's speed and it feels somewhat natural.

Don't take me as an expert but that description matches some of what I have read described as cadence PAS. It is also something I want to avoid as I know I am lazy enough to depend on ghost pedaling more than I should.

 

[E-HP]

Don't take me as an expert but that description matches some of what I have read described as cadence PAS. It is also something I want to avoid as I know I am lazy enough to depend on ghost pedaling more than I should.

There's no ghost pedaling. The nice thing about current/power based control is that you get a steady level of power assistance, and you can contribute additional leg power relative to that. That's opposed to a speed based control, that shoots up to a speed and your pedaling doesn't do much, and depending on the motor, you might be fighting the motor to pedal faster. You should probably go out a ride a few ebikes just so you can be more informed.
If you get a cycle analyst to deal with PAS, you have the option of using cadence or torque sensing PAS, or a combination, but you might find the cadence PAS is good enough, since it's a true cadence PAS, not just on and off (you can program it to give more power as your cadence increases, or less, depending on what you want to achieve, and the CA allow you to select between speed, power, or current control.

 

[stancecoke]

If you get a cycle analyst to deal with PAS, you have the option of using cadence or torque sensing

There are much cheaper alternatives to the CA meanwhile . You can get combination of controller + display and torquesensor. The system from JYTCon for example for about 210€.

Analyse des JYTCon FOC-Controllers von Yose-Power

Also ich brauche ja ein Display mit 5s Protokoll. Leider steht das natürlich nie dabei, welches Protokoll ein Display spricht. Gibt es irgendwo eine Liste mit kompatiblen Displays?

www.pedelecforum.de

 

[Madmarcus]

I'd love to get some test riding in but so far I haven't found a good bike shop especially since I want to try out some things that seem slightly less common as well as a comparing like with like (similar performance cadence PAS with torque PAS for example).

I'd especially like to try the Aventon Soltera 2 that seems to be a fairly light torque sensing rear hub. For a slightly higher price the Optibike Argon is similar but more powerful. Some of that is due to smaller batteries but I think I can make that work

 

[stancecoke]

I'd love to get some test riding in but so far I haven't found a good bike shop especially since I want to try out some things that seem slightly less common as well as a comparing like with like (similar performance cadence PAS with torque PAS for example).

I took a test ride with a Fiido C21 that was offered as used in the internet. It was excellent, exactly the assistance behaviour that I like, I wondered to find a torque sensor in such a cheap bike. I think in a commercial bike shop you won't get bikes with simple PAS assistance (in Europe almost impossible, I don't know, if it's different in the US). So perhaps you can look for used offers in your region to do some test rides.

regards
stancecoke