Ebike road race bike: Questions and build info

[Jay64]

Ok, I'm realizing that I am getting a few different posts all related to this one build. So I am going to try to condense it all to this one post. And hopefully that will help to put all of the questions into context, so I am not having to talk about the whole project with each question. This thread will be a combination of a request for advice and also a documentation of the build.
I'm looking to build a non frock e bike to compete on road courses. I hope to use this bike for various races, the initial build is for a run at Grange go-cart/supermoto track. The track is about 8/10ths of a mile long, and the heat race is 5 laps (4 miles) and the final is 12 laps (9.6 miles.) The race is limited to bikes with <11 hp. The track has 14 turns, so I am looking for something that will drive out of corners well, but still have a decent top speed on the straights. I am going back and forth on a couple of options for this bike and nothing is set in stone yet. Hell, I'm even open to running one of my hub motors if that turns out to be the best option.
I'm looking to use a Tidal Force frame that I have had for quite a while just sitting around waiting to be put to use. But, I also have a FS mongoose frame just sitting around doing absolutely nothing as well, and the more I think about it, that might be a decent option as well. Either option will require getting a set of good 26" rims. I started a thread asking for advice on which ones to get, here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=31585
Right now I am leaning towards a double wall DH setup. Right now Alex supra Rims are at the top of the list, unless I get info on a better set. Looking to wrap them in maxxis hookworm tires. Rules specifically state no motorcycle rims allowed. They do allow Pirelli ML75 tires, but that would require 20" rims and then I would also have to get a whole new frame option as well....right?
For the brakes, Avid BB7s are at the top of the list, again, unless I get info on a better set.
Motor: I have an 80-100, four baby colossus motors http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=21969 , 9 cont rear and front hub motors, both versions of the mars motor, 2 agni motors, and a MY1020 60v 1000w motor. Right now I'm really leaning towards the baby colossus, especially given the event's <11hp rule. I want to put some use to those things and test them. I don't think the baby colossus motors have been really tested yet, so I don't know for sure how much they can take. edit: Jeremy Harris gave a best guess on calculations from the specs that it would probably handle 50a. That would be 140 volts for a 7kw motor. The motor choice would dictate a large part of the controller choice. Right now I am totally open to controller choices as I don't have many. Well, I do have controllers for the hub motors and the bigger brushed motors. I have a few kelly and a AXE controller for the agni and mars motors. But given the <11 hp limit, I probably won't use those options, but they are on the table if they work best. Right now, the one that I have seen come close for the baby colossus would be lyen's 24 fet 10kw controller. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=19612 Anyone know of anything better for this application with a colossus? Looks like the Lyen controller only goes to 100v. I wonder if I lower the volts to 100 and up the amps to 70, if the motor would handle it. I guess I have 4 so I could test that theory.
Batteries....definately need some advice on these. I do have a bunch of a123s, and headways, but really looking to use the Turnigy Nano-Techs for this build. How much ah would be recommended to get 10 miles out of a 72v turnigy nano-tech pack? I was looking at the 6s 5ah 45C/90C packs. 3 of these in series should get me close to the 72v range of the baby colossus. Would 10ah of these batts be good for 10 miles of full throttle out of 140 turns?
Drive components, I'm looking to do a dual rear freewheel for the motor drive. SoSauty is sending me a list of parts for this:
White Ind 16T Eno (freewheel) w/ adapter to 3/8" shaft(can be bored out), w/ tool,
ACS Crossfire 17T freewheel,
5 130BCD sprocs 39T to 53T,
2 1/8" BMX type chains, a $9 Wal-marty & a nickel plated Wipperman,
Recumpence 130mm BCD rear adapter w/ hex bolts and sprocket bolts.

Any thoughts, advice, criticism, etc are openly invited, just keep in mind, this particular version of this build is for a specific initial event that has a couple of specific rules. So, no, I won't be throwing 30 kw at an Agni, eventhough eventually that might be a fun build.

 

[SoSauty]

The nano-lipos are worth every penny. Get bullet connectors that come w/ plastic covers also. Frock motors get a bad rapt, yet Dogmanz ran 40mph leading a race (before the flag personel botched communication) with a single C9 frock motor. Turnigys and Astros have more of a track record. Your Turnigy won Tucson DR and my toy Astro3210 finished 9th of 11 finishers/18 starters at Willow Springs. Etard w/ a Turnigy80-85 and RWP w/ Astro3220 ran 2nd/3rd before dropping out, so there's a little racing background for those.

(Edit: Ahhh Dogmanz, we had discussed dual C9's on another thread; talking 2Xs 3k)

be in touch,
Will

 

[dogman dan]

Well, I can't recomend the 9c 2807 motor for a competitive bike. Mine went up in smoke in the main of the DR. Fine for a bike with 35 mph for a fun run around the track. But pulling 4000 or more watts, you'll just smoke it. So you are better off with something else for sure.

 

[Thud]

I just noticed this thread.

Jay, I have a pr of the Tidleforce frames....you will be hard pressed to fit all your components onto it..(i know I am) You were absent for a while, did you see the bike i put together for the Touscon race? tiny low frame built on an aluminum 24" BMX. bike rode well, cornered great, was super stable....& burned up
here is a linc if you missed it:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=26747

I will prolly be chopping a bike out in Cali for this event & shipping out my wheels,brakes & power packadge. I have my eye on a wallmart bike as possible canidate for the chop sesion at Etards. I'll prefab a parts kit here & ship it...so its cut & paste out there (i can buy 4 or 5 wally bikes for the price of shipping all my stuff out & back).

looking foward to the event.
Dogman, your due for some racing action arent you?

 

[Jay64]

I am not against frock motors, I have a few builds that I used them for. However, I want to try something different, and I think this build will be a great place to try and get the baby colossus in the game.

I haven't started building yet, but when I do, this thread will also be my build thread.

Thud, yes, I have been gone for a while, and I did miss your thread, but I will definately check it out. I'm thinking of going with the tidal force because I already have a new frame just sitting in storage. If I went with a different frame, I would have to buy it. I am already having to buy a controller and a batch of nano techs, and some disk brakes, besides having to get all the way out to Cali from Florida, so I'm going to be kind of tight this month for buying another frame. So for right now I have a tidal force frame, a walmart fs mongoose frame, and a phat chopper with coaster brakes. :lol: I think the tidal force is the best option for this build. I think putting some good components on the mongoose would make a decent bike, but I think there is even less room than in the tidal force. But then again, I would be more willing to do some welding to the mongoose frame than I would to the tidal force frame.

 

[Jay64]

I just saw this bike for sale on craigslist real cheap. :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Thud]

love the fender flairs...instant classic LOL!
(wait till you see the purple on black splash painted bars I sent Etard)

 

[dogman dan]

We'd get confused if there was two pink racers at that track. Well, maybe not uless you also have pink leathers.

The morinis just got so fast, that bicycle frock motors burn up trying to keep up. The podium is going to be chain drive something, unless you have a frock motor designed for 5000w.

 

[drewjet]

Jay,

What is the KV of the baby Collasus? Need that to figure out gearing.

I think if your not going to use the Agni, the Baby Colasus driven by a 24 FET is the way to go. A Lyen buid 4110 should be good to 100 volts, Stick to around 95v hot off the charger for a little headroom which would be 22 series, I would think you want to be at least 15AH or even 20, and will need to charge after each heat. I would think both the motor and controller should handle 100 to 150 amps out of the corners.

Disc brakes, make sure and get the largest, 203 mm Discs. Or even better look into scooter style brakes as at those speeds and extreme braking, I don't think Bicycle brakes are really up to the job.

 

[Jay64]

The baby colossus is said to be 75kv...but then again it is also said to be 7kw! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ok, last night I was talking to one of my ICE race sponsors and they want to see me build 2 bikes, one with a baby colossus for the <11 hp classification, and then build another one for the unlimted race with the Agni motor. Hmmm.

 

[grindz145]

Sounds like your headed down the right path, but the of course that's because I'm the only one that's given alot of input so far

Ill have to see if I can find some rims more beefy than the supras... that sounds like a challenge

Edit: must be nice to have sponsors! If were talking practically unlimited budget, then I might change my component selection a little

If you can afford $300+ brakes, there are some decent hydraulic options for sure!

 

[Jay64]

Well, it definately isn't an unlimited budget. If it was I would have a 200hp superbike racing in the electric championship. :lol: Besides, who needs brakes, they just slow you down, right? :lol: You just need to scrub speed with brakes, it is not like I need to come to a dead stop at any time. I think the cooler the project, the easier it is to get sponsors excited about it. But if I'm gonna do 2 bikes, I think I will have to just do one set of batts between the two and have a quick change to switch from bike to bike. I'm looking at the Nano-Techs. There are some Nano-Tech 6s5ah packs. One set has 35-70c and the other set has 45-90c. I know that the 45c are better, but I might only be able to afford the 35c for this particular build.

I'm still trying to figure out how I'm gonna do the rear freewheel on the hub. I've had a few different suggestions. But not sure if I am following it all right. Some of it kinda seems to be contradictory info.

 

[MotorBicycleRacing]

The morinis just got so fast, that bicycle frock motors burn up trying to keep up. The podium is going to be chain drive something, unless you have a frock motor designed for 5000w.

Forget about the Morini's, the fastest bikes will be the 4 strokes.
This one is 212 cc and modified to about 10 hp.

So far there is only one 20 hp 4 stroke in the Unlimited class and it won't get much track
time because of having a really action packed schedule to fit all the classes and bikes in.
Maybe liveforphysics will have a bike in this class too.

 

[Jay64]

You're kidding, right? 212cc is only making 10hp???? And u were worried about the Ebikes trying to cheat. :lol: :lol:

 

[Thud]

If that thing aint making 18+ on pump gas its because he left the govoner on it.....The cvt is where these things have all the advantage over the single speed 2-strokes....I think thats Scotto's beuitiful new toy....unlimited class definatly I can only assume & not elligable for the Ultimate race?

I am hoping to finish up the E-bike & get my 50cc china girl put back together & see if I can Give Mag a run for his money...I really want the gasser Just to get more track time in.

 

[MotorBicycleRacing]

You're kidding, right? 212cc is only making 10hp???? And u were worried about the Ebikes trying to cheat. :lol: :lol:

There is only one ebike cheater and that's liveforphysics with his
8" diameter motor.
I am worried about gas bikes cheating too.

The 196 cc or 212 cc Harbor Freight motors make 6.5 hp stock.
The motors can be bought for about $100 but it takes a lot more
money for the parts to make hp and most of the gas bike guys are
broke.

So your ICE sponsor is helping you build ebikes?

Did you talk to Manic Mechanic? Are you bringing his 2 stroke bike
to the race?

 

[dogman dan]

That is a beauty. The bicycle frockmotors had a chance for a time, when the china girl was the standard. This stuff is starting to look like Curtis built it already. They've also left a lot of us frock riders behind in riding ability too.

 

[MotorBicycleRacing]

If that thing aint making 18+ on pump gas its because he left the govoner on it.....The cvt is where these things have all the advantage over the single speed 2-strokes....I think thats Scotto's beuitiful new toy....unlimited class definatly I can only assume & not elligable for the Ultimate race?

I am hoping to finish up the E-bike & get my 50cc china girl put back together & see if I can Give Mag a run for his money...I really want the gasser Just to get more track time in.

You just trying to cause trouble? 18 hp my f u c king ass. AGKs bike makes about 20 hp
and it is a $1800 motor.

scotto- 's bike is NOT IN THE UNLIMITED CLASS AND YOUR ASSUMPTION MAKES YOU AN ASS.
scotto-'s bike is in the 11 hp gas bike class quite fairly as it fits in with all the rules
so of course it will be in the Ultimate race.

 

[vanilla ice]

I'd have gone right for the 420cc HF. I think that one makes 11hp out of the box.

 

[MotorBicycleRacing]

I'd have gone right for the 420cc HF. I think that one makes 11hp out of the box.

Huh? So you would have the same hp in a much bulkier package that weighs a lot more.
You are being funny right?

Hey, are you showing up at the race this time?

 

[Jay64]

You just trying to cause trouble? 18 hp my f u c king ass. AGKs bike makes about 20 hp
and it is a $1800 motor.

scotto- 's bike is NOT IN THE UNLIMITED CLASS AND YOUR ASSUMPTION MAKES YOU AN ASS.
scotto-'s bike is in the 11 hp gas bike class quite fairly as it fits in with all the rules
so of course it will be in the Ultimate race.

I don't see how someone making an assumption that a 212cc bike can make 18 hp is an ass, and I really don't see how that is trying to cause trouble. I would assume that if someone can't make more than 11 hp with a 212cc motor without spending thousands of dollars more, then they need to learn how to build motors better. Again, I'm not trying to be an ass, but that definately is a fair assumption. I may be totally wrong with this specific motor that you are talking about, but it is by no means an off the wall assumption. After talking to you I was kind of worried about pushing too close to the 11hp limit with my electric build, seems like you were going to be all over anyone with any kind of advantage even if they came within your rules. But I guess if someone is running a 212cc motor, I should have no problem running 8.2kw electric motor.
My sponsor isn't really helping me to build the bike, they are just really excited to see it done, and might help out with the whole race/trip stuff. Looks like it is going to cost close to $1400 just in gas for the round trip. Yes, I did talk to Manic Mechanics about bringing their bike. They need to get it there a day before hand so that the rider you got for them can get it jetted and geared before the race. When it gets closer to the event, I'll get info from you guys on where you want the bike dropped off at.

 

[Jay64]

Ok, as for my build. If I go with an Agni at 80v, then I can run 102 amps to make it 11 hp, right? I will definately start testing with that. Seems like that will be a LOT cheaper to go that route as I already have the motor/controller/throttle for that. I will have to start testing with that next week.
I'm actually going to go down to Manic Mechanics and check out some of their components that they use for their gas bikes to see which ones I can incorporate into my build. They looked like they had some really nice freewheel components to apply power to the rear wheel.

 

[Thud]

You just trying to cause trouble?

Who me? LOL never......I know scotto's got a cam & springs & an aftermarket carb.......& I build a lot more engines than motors Neal, I'll stay with my original observation...he's gonna be tough to beat. (or even keep up with)
(Just removing the govoner puts that motor into 11HP range BTW. I have one.)

There are a lot more things than assumptions to make me an Ass. (I can never tell what your motives are Neil. you jump into a casual converrsation, post a pic & then go on full attack if any one makes a comment positive or negative)

Lets Quit Hi-Jacking Jays thread now.

Jay, one of Manics sprocket mounts might be the ticket...it doesn't freewheel but will get you into 40 class chain for the drive line.
& if your bringing an Agni for e-bike racing....I must have it all wrong LOL.

 

[veloman]

I'm curious how they come up the the 11hp limit? Why not 2kw, or 4kw, or 20kw? Is 8kw the best balance of power for a 'bicycle'?

I wonder how many racers will be wearing clothes that flap in the wind (ie dragging a parachute)....

 

[vanilla ice]

Yes, its a funny idea because its huge and it wouldn't fit in a frame. Hopefully I'll get out to watch a race sooner or later.

I can never tell if this guy is really in "full attack mode" or if its just his normal everyday way to speak.. I give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he is just profane and not upset at all.