Ebrake to activate brake light?

[warrah]

I'd say you definitely need a relay to get what you want; both levers ebraking, both levers brake lighting. The relay you need is the one amberwolf mentioned, a 12v STDP relay. You dont need to know the type of controller before you start. This is because the 12v circuit, closed by the brake levers, will activate the relay, which in turn will simply close the controller ebrake circuit, much like the controllers ebrake circuit would be closed by a brake lever if we were wiring an ebike the ordinary way. Once its closed ie once the two ebrake wires coming off the controller are bridged, the ebrake signal is activated. We could touch these two wires together however we wanted, using any sort of switch we liked, or just by touching the ends of the wire together. Doesnt matter what kind of controller.

This is quite a universal procedure, you'll be replicating the way its done in motorcycles (theres loads of relays in motorcycles), so a guide for everyone would be awesome.

buy one just like this, but from somewhere cheaper:

http://store.acradiosupplyinc.com/nter25-5d16-12relay-16amp-dc-12v.aspx

i found an example of one with translucent plastic, because its useful for understanding whats actually happening in the circuit youre making. You can see the switches being pulled by the electro magnet, its really cool.

I should mention that you'll be doing some soldering, so grab a 40w soldering iron, or a 60w if you are impatient like me. Its a great project to practice with, very achievable.

 

[amberwolf]

It seems my bike doesn't have the option for mounting the disc brake calipers so I am pretty limited to 'regular' brakes. Relying on just one brake sounds a little too weak for comfort.

For reliability two is better, but one works just fine, especially if you use a rear hub motor with regen and use a physical brake on the front. Even without the rear regen, my single rim brake easily locks the front wheel, which is the maximum braking power you can possibly have--at that point it's all up to the tire contact patch traction on the road.

Disc vs rim brakes discussed to death, but basically comes down to: if you can't afford really good disc brakes, you're better off with decent rim brakes and good pads like Koolstop Salmon. (even crappy rim brakes with those pads or even significantly lower grades will be way better than crappy disc brakes, in my experience and reading). I have crappy disc on the front that WON'T lock the wheel, while the decent (nowhere near high end) rim brake does.

So I'd rather have both levers each activate a regular brake and the ebrake. That lever with all those knobs sounds excellent, if only I could wire in a bicycle brake line, maybe there is a way, like using a motorcycle cable hose for the portion required? I don't know if I understand everything correctly.

Well, the problme is leverage, since it's easy enough to put something on the cable end (or the lever's mount point) to secure it to the lever. There are several types of braking systems for bicycles, and each requires a different amount of leverage (mechanical advantage, MA). Read up here:
http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_bo-z.html#brakelever
http://sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html#mechanical
for some better explanations than I can come up with.

So, what it comes down to is you could check with Problemsolvers (linked previously) if their pulleys would adapt the lever type to your brake arm type.


Anyway, if you go with Cell_man's kit, it should come wiht ebrake levers in it that you can use with Warrah's relay setup just fine, as long as they are two-wire switches. If they're 3-wire it takes a little more work. The controller doesn't really matter which kind it is--it'll work with Warrah's method either way.

 

[bowlofsalad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKUOB8MN4Kc Excellent. I'll find a relay with clear housing, I've looked into this pulley you suggest, but I doubt I fully understand the issue involved. I've never really felt I had much of a problem in this arena that playing with the cable lengths and their various adjustors didn't solve, I guess we will see when the time comes.

I may just buy a pair of 'Koolstop Salmon'. They release the scent of freshly caught fish when braking, right?

 

[amberwolf]

Assuming the fish are made of petroleum products, then yes.


Unfortunately adjusting things won't change the "action" of the levers/brakes, and that's the issue when using a different lever with the brakes than they were intended to use. That's where that pulley comes in--the way the pulleys are set up, plus their sizes, etc., are what changes the MA of the system--either increasing or reducing it to match the actual brakes you want.


I've used "wrong" levers for various kinds of brakes, and they can result in braking that's either useless, dangerously unadjustable (just on or off), or simply annoyingly mushy. With rim brakes, if you adjust things down tight so mushiness wil still grab good and lock the wheel before the lever hits the handlebars, you end up so close to the braking surface that *any* distortion of the rim, any out-of-trueness, results in rubbing the pads, wasting energy, and wearing your pads out much faster than normal.

So while it *can* work or be made to work without pulleys or other fixes, it usually sucks.

 

[bowlofsalad]

I just want to make sure I have all this straight.

Kool stop salmon brake pads, two sets. Is there any consideration for a 20 inch wheel vs a 26?

Travel agent, two of them. http://www.amazon.com/Problem-Solvers-Travel-Adjusting-Barrel/dp/B0028MUZLW/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1362185924&sr=8-4&keywords=travel+agenthttp://www.amazon.com/Jagwire-Rocket-II-Adjusters-Black/dp/B001PTBUNQ/ref=pd_bxgy_sg_text_y Recommend these adjusters?

Left and right levers from http://hondaspree.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=230027#p230027 per mark. Should I just post something similar to what you did, "Do you have any 84/5/6 handlebar control units? (brake lever/turn signal/etc controls on left, stop-run/start controls on right)" Amberwolf?

A 15-20(?)amp SPDT 12VDC clear (polycarbonate?) relay. I've been looking around online for clear ones, it seems hard to find good pricing on them. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005S3VGUW/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B005S3VGUW&linkCode=as2&tag=almar01-20 This one (including shipping) seems to be a little cheaper, 4 dollars or so. Is that a good enough deal? I assume the clean aspect makes them more expensive, is it worth it? I saw a video on their function. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mci7gysJtI4 This video gives a fairly clear illustration.

Some wire and a 12v led brake lamp.

How many dogs do you have amberwolf? Have any wolves? : P

As far as the brake adjustments go, my brake pads are on smooth studs, they have a fair amount of play as to how near or far they are to the rim.

 

[amberwolf]

Kool stop salmon brake pads, two sets. Is there any consideration for a 20 inch wheel vs a 26?

I don't know for sure; probably not. Check the Kool Stop website to be sure first. The ones I've had were used, came off of junked bikes I parted out; I've never bought new ones, though I will probably have to in a few months if I don't run across anything usable to replace the Avid pads I have on CB2 that are wearing out now.

Travel agent, two of them. http://www.amazon.com/Problem-Solvers-Travel-Adjusting-Barrel/dp/B0028MUZLW/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1362185924&sr=8-4&keywords=travel+agenthttp://www.amazon.com/Jagwire-Rocket-II-Adjusters-Black/dp/B001PTBUNQ/ref=pd_bxgy_sg_text_y Recommend these adjusters?

I would guess those would work. But as I said, you shoudl ask Problem Solvers if those specific ones will (or should) work for the MC/scooter levers. I expect they will, but have never used them.

Left and right levers from http://hondaspree.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=230027#p230027 per mark. Should I just post something similar to what you did, "Do you have any 84/5/6 handlebar control units? (brake lever/turn signal/etc controls on left, stop-run/start controls on right)" Amberwolf?

Should get you the right stuff; just make sure to ask if they also contain the brake levers and switches (they are removable). BTW, probably the ones from *any* year will work; I just know that these will, and that the only thing that's broken on mine ws the turn signal switch when I let the whole bike fall on it into a porch support post. (I did fix it, but it was annoying to have happen--yet an ebike version made of plastic would probably have just disintegrated unrepairably!)

A 15-20(?)amp SPDT 12VDC clear (polycarbonate?) relay.

No need for anythign that big. Unless you are using huge incandescent bulbs bigger than car headlights for your brake lights, and are running the lights thru the relay, too, it's not going to take anywhere near that amountof current. As I understand the diagram above, you'd wire the brake lights directly thru the switches, and the relay is only to switch the controller's ebrake line on/off.

If you use a DPDT, you could switch both lights and ebrake thru it, but it is not necessary.

Even 50mA contact rating at 5VDC is quite sufficient for the ebrake line. The coil does need to be 12V (assuming you are using 12V brake lights, which is simplest since then you can use MC or scooter stuff, which is plentiful and cheap--even the LED units can be had for next to nothing if you talk to local repair shops, when they replace the OEM units with aftermarket stuff for whatever reason. That's where I got the "bowtie" LED unit on the back of DayGlo Avenger, thru an acquaintance that works at such a shop).

No need for clear relays, unless you like to see the action inside them.

Mouser, Digikey, etc, all have hundreds of relays you couldpick from--Mouser even has online chat support that will help you pick the right one.

How many dogs do you have amberwolf? Have any wolves? : P

Four right now, was five until late 2011. Until early last decade I had a Wolf / Great Pyrenees mix named Lady, who passed away then at 12 or 13 years old, I think it was. I might have a picture of in the Post Your Pets thread (definitely do have all the others there).

As far as the brake adjustments go, my brake pads are on smooth studs, they have a fair amount of play as to how near or far they are to the rim.

Yes; I simply meant that if you were to try to use that spacing to adjust for better brakign with "mushy" brake levers, you run into problems as described. Usually you want to adjust them fairly close but it depends on how you use them and how true your wheels are.

 

[bowlofsalad]

Yeah, I am definitly not using a brake light that big. I e-mailed mouser for guidance on the specific relay explaining the situation as best I could. The only thing I am not sure of is if the ebrakes go from 5v to 0v or 0v to 5v and how you actually tell if the relay works for either 'direction'.
I am sure a brake light around 800-1000 lumens will be sufficient. : D

 

[amberwolf]

The only thing I am not sure of is if the ebrakes go from 5v to 0v or 0v to 5v and how you actually tell if the relay works for either 'direction'.

It doesn't matter--the relay is just a switch, just like the ebrake levers typically are.

The only possible thing you might have to do different is if the ebrake plug on the controlller is 3 wires, it might need a pullup or pulldown resistor--but probably not. For now, assume it's just a switch.

I am sure a brake light around 800-1000 lumens will be sufficient. : D

I think the MC tail/brake I have is around maybe 50 lumens, maybe twice that, with brake light engaged. It's pretty bright, too. But mostly it is large surface area (bigger than a flat "stop-signal" hand), and that makes it more visible than a really bright light--more effective at night especially, since bigger doesn't blind, where small and bright can.


It's been my experience so far that the bigger you make the lights, the less bright any point on the light surface must be to "get your point across". I knwo that car taillights that are small surface area but very bright make it a lot harder to see anything past them, or even the road surface between me and them, when their brake lights come on. (same thing with headlights--when they are too bright, I can't see anything else around them).

But when they are large surface areas, they can be just as bright overall, and not be as blinding, and much easier to "see".


I have a 20 lumen white flashlight that has a very narrow spot. It's easily brigth enough to be a good brake light, if it were all red, but it's a very tiny bright spot. If it were the size of my hand instead, it'd be a lot better, and could be made much brighter without blinding anyone.


Anyway...get the largest surface area light you can get, and it will also help people judge distance from you easier than a bright point-source would.

There are also MC tail/brake lights that have turn signals built in, if you are interested in those, too. The thing I don't like about them is that while they keep the bike narrow, they also make it harder to tell it's a turn signal or which direction it is signalling, especially in daytime. Still, they could add more light and surface area to turn signals that are on booms to the sides of the bike (like mine are on DayGlo Avenger or Fusin Test Bike), making it easier to see them.

I forget who makes them, but a good google on the terms ought to show them.
http://www.google.com/search?q=MC+tail%2Fbrake+lights+that+have+turn+signals+built+in
pulls up a forum post first thing asking about them,
http://www.vtxoa.com/forums/showthread.php?172951-Combined-tail-brake-turn-signal-lights-for-VTX
which links here
http://www.customdynamics.com/
and here
http://www.bikebandit.com/clear-alternatives/n4294966777
in the first few posts just quickscanning.
but they also point out the other issue I mentioned--that it's hard to distinguish turn signals that are so close to centerline.

Anyway, before you order any actual lights, find and browse around on motorcycle customization forums and read up on good or bad companies and light types. It'd suck to spend money on some only to have them die quickly like some of the ones reported in this
http://www.hayabusa.org/forum/general-bike-related-topics/140085-beware-clear-alternatives-gone.html
thread.


Oh, and I don't recommend the LED "bulbs" meant to go into incandescent-type housings. THey won't give light in the same pattern, and won't be as visible as a housing designed with LEDs in it in the first place, most likely.