eLation 200watt kit (Australia)

[zx6rj1]

Hi there, I'm new to this forum.

I installed my 200watt kit on the weekend and have been riding around the block as well as commutting few times. It's great fun!

I was initially worried about the legal limitation of 200watts, being not sure what that means. But so far I'm happy with the performance. It does not accelerate well, so what I do is pedal to certain speed, normally 25-30kph and then let the motor hold it there. It works very effectively.

The throttle is bit bulgy and interfere with shifting operation so I moved it to the left handlebar. It works out nice.

I'm reading up on battery technology, how to treat the LifePO4. Apparently for the first few cycles it should not be utilised fully? At the moment when I charge overnight, the charger says full (green LED), but when I press the indicator on the battery, only 3 out of 5 (or 6 I can't remember) lit. Perhaps it requires bit of time?

 

[Kurt]

Looks like a nice neat simple kit for your first ebike. Starting out with a lithium battery was a good decision. I wouldn't be to worried about the led indicator on the battery. Could just be inaccurate. Testing the voltage of the battery with a multi meter would be the best way to check everything is up to spec. I think a 24v lifpo4 pack would use 8 cells at 3.3v each so the nominal voltage would be around 26v Probably some where around 29v fresh off the charge at 3.65v each cell.Though they might use only 7 cells giving you 23v nominal and 25.5v fresh off the charger. It will be one of the two

Its always good to take it easy on the battery the first couple of cycles. Just do shallow discharges. Most of the lifepo4 chargers will fully charge the pack and then balance the cells slowly this could take a couple of hrs at first to bring the cells all into balance.

Good to see one more Australian on the forum

Kurt.

 

[OneWayTraffic]

You say the Elation doesn't accelerate well, even in low gear? I thought that was one of the main benefits of the kit?

Please keep us updated about how this kit works out for you. There's precious little unbiased information online about the Elation. Most of it comes from the designer himself.

 

[heathyoung]

These are a nice looking kit, using a cyclone motor '3 chainwheel' design - clockwise, not anti-clockwise like their old model (yeah, made by someone else) without the dodgy cyclone parts (freewheel, chainring etc.) Battery also looks like cyclone as well. At least the chain wont jump off.

200W it probably aint... The actual motor is probably a 180W - the RTA is pushing for 250W now, so that could be a good thing. Acceleration is a function of the gearing, the motor is most efficient when it is revving high (so if you spin rather than slog) you will get more out of it. There is a 250W cyclone available, these all seem to be based on the same package (180W, 250W, 360W) - it would be good to know how the power is limited (probably a shunt).

They are a sensored brushless design, so potentially could be used with a hub motor speed control. The packaging looks more purdy though, with an internal controller.

Here are the internal pics... http://www.endless-sphere.com/forum...1215&hilit=+cyclone+internal+pictures#p131215
- the shunt resistor appears to be a resistor - or a few resistors - which is in contact with the heatsinked base that the mosfets (IRF3205's) are mounted to.

 

[zx6rj1]

Kurt,

Thanks for the explanation. I'll measure the voltage after charging then. My charger is spec'd at 29.2v, what is the reason for this? From research from the web, I thought LiFePO4 cannot be overcharged? It's a 24 volts kit, and even if it's 26v nominal wouldn't the extra 3v is an "overcharge" ?

OneWay,

I'll post more objective experience with the bike as soon as I pass the "20-30 first cycles". I don't want to damage the battery by pushing too hard. At the moment I'm riding at 70-75% of the throttle only. Maybe timing from 0-10kph, 0-20kph, etc. later on a flat would be good indicator.

heathYoung,

Thanks for that investigation .. I definitely don't want any water on my motor!

 

[Kurt]

29.2 volts is perfect for a 8 cell lifpo4 pack. 29.2/8 = 3.65v and that is the voltage of a fully charged lifpo4 cell. They rate them at 3.3v but just like a car battery is rated at 12v but fully charged is more like 13v.So your not over charging your pack the voltage is spot on.

So fresh off the charger the battery will be around 29.2v but this surface charge will drop off as soon as you put a small load on the pack.You will find it will settle to around 26v.To really check the health of the pack you need to measure all 8 of the cells individually to check they are all balanced and healthy.But it involves opening up your pack and probably isn't necessary.

You will find that all the ebike kits and bikes sold in Australia that say they are 200w and legal are actually a lot more than 200w. It's a bit of a grey area on how you rate the wattage of the motor and the police don't have any way of enforcing it at the moment. If you do the simple maths on the controller amps multiplied by the battery voltage you usually get way more than 200w. I remember my first ebike was rated at 200w but it had a 25a controller and 24v battery that's 600w. My wife's little folding bike was also rated at 200w and Aust legal and had a 25a controller and 36v battery so 900w .

What I have done with my own bike that pulls over 1800w is wire up a cycle analyst its a little device you can buy kinda like a bike computer and a battery monitor all in one. Anyhow you can set a amp limit on it and with the press of a button you can limit the bikes speed controller to 200w. My bike hardly moves at 200w but it will keep the cops happy if it ever comes to that :lol:

Kurt.

 

[zx6rj1]

Thanks again Kurt, that is very clear.

I will check as soon as I get home and charge the battery.

About "Cycle analyst", where can we buy this down under, and what is the price range? I've seen them in youtube videos.

re: the legal wattage limit, my motor has a manufacturer sticker saying "200 watts". I suppose the police will simply look at this? There is no way they carry dynometer around (or do they ??). I know more power is good (I ride a zx6r after all ) but this 200w is simply sufficient for me at this time for the purpose.

 

[OneWayTraffic]

http://www.ebikes.ca

Post anywhere in the world for roughly $15.

You'll need to wire it in yourself between the battery and the controller. There's a shunt that goes in there. You'll need to put connectors in yourself.

But the current limiting function requires that you open up the controller itself and do surgery.

Edit: How are the battery and connector connected?

 

[Kurt]

There is a couple of places to get the Cycle analyst In Australia. I got both mine from EV power Aust. They are located in Perth WA but I just ordered over the phone. It was delivered to my door in Brisbane that week. There price is $179.50 for the stand alone version that you would need for your set up.It sounds like a lot of $ but once you have one you realise how useful they are. knowing exactly how much battery capacity you have used up is very handy on long trips.Info about the CA and all the features can be found on the ebikes ca website and can also be purchased directly from them being the manufactures of the product.But depending on exchange rate and postage think it might not be cheaper I think they charge $140 US + postage from Canada.

Links to both

http://www.ebikes.ca/drainbrain.shtml

http://www.evpower.com.au/-Electric-Bicycle-Retrofit-Kits-.html


Kurt.

 

[dogman dan]

Nice looking setup. One thing I'd be very very sure of, is that there is no way the front wheel could touch the motor when the shocks bottom out. Just imagine jumping a curb and wheeee if the front wheel jammed on the motor. It's probobally fine, but in a picture it looks possible. Last summer it looked like my water bottle mounted in the same place was fine. When I went for a drink while rolling, it was far from fine and now I have metal shoulders.

I have rode bikes with internal gearmotors and direct drive motors, but not the chain drives. I find that in general, low watts is slower regardless of gears or no gears. Its just a laws of physics thing. A certain energy put into moving a certain weight goes a certain speed. Gears can make starting easier, or climbing up a hill easier, but it cannot magically magnify the power that is going into the system. So if controller amps is similar, a 24v bike will seem slow compared to 36v or 48. Gears will get you up a slope with less power for sure, but going fast up that slope is just going to take more watts. So if this bike is a bit slower, its to be expected, even with the chain drive gearing helping it.

 

[zx6rj1]

Battery test

Ok.. last night I did the voltmeter battery test and this is what I found out:

12/6/2009
Full charge (immediately): 28.9 v
After about 1hr it settles at 27.6v
Quick run of the motor (not riding): down to 26.4 v, but then up again at 27v.
I left it for the night and in the morning it settles at 26.4v.

So it looks good and complies with "Kurt Law" . I'm still going to be very careful for the next 20 cycles or so though, just in case.

I will retest the battery after 1 month, 3 months, and 6 months. I commute 6km each way daily, so that shouldn't be too much strain to the battery. I also always run the motor gently on the green led throttle (as with my cars and motorbikes as well!).

Now.. about the indicator on the battery. there are 5 leds. When full and settled (28.9 and 27.6), all leds correctly lit. But in the morning (26.4v) only 3 leds lit. So It seems that the indicator do not have enough resolution for the top 26-29v. This doesn't bother me but it would be nice if it was accurate

 

[OneWayTraffic]

Nice looking setup. One thing I'd be very very sure of, is that there is no way the front wheel could touch the motor when the shocks bottom out. Just imagine jumping a curb and wheeee if the front wheel jammed on the motor. It's probobally fine, but in a picture it looks possible. Last summer it looked like my water bottle mounted in the same place was fine. When I went for a drink while rolling, it was far from fine and now I have metal shoulders.

I have rode bikes with internal gearmotors and direct drive motors, but not the chain drives. I find that in general, low watts is slower regardless of gears or no gears. Its just a laws of physics thing. A certain energy put into moving a certain weight goes a certain speed. Gears can make starting easier, or climbing up a hill easier, but it cannot magically magnify the power that is going into the system. So if controller amps is similar, a 24v bike will seem slow compared to 36v or 48. Gears will get you up a slope with less power for sure, but going fast up that slope is just going to take more watts. So if this bike is a bit slower, its to be expected, even with the chain drive gearing helping it.

One advantage of geared drives is that they're always at the peak of the power curve. A regular hub will have a power output dependent on it's RPM, with max power output at half the no load speed and the 'sweet spot' for efficiency somewhere near 75% of no load. Geared drives can ignore all this and optimise road speed and motor speed independently of each other. Aside from that you're completely right. If this system is putting out 200w it's not going to compete with your Aotema for example.

Something to think about here. The bike has a 240Wh battery. Now according to that other guy who put one on a road bike a year back, he got ~12km range at full throttle. IIRC that was roughly 35-40km/h with pedaling. Now that's something like a 2C discharge on that battery. 240*2=480W. That was the 300W rated NZ kit though.

 

[zx6rj1]

When I went for a drink while rolling, it was far from fine and now I have metal shoulders.

I have rode bikes with internal gearmotors and direct drive motors, but not the chain drives. I find that in general, low watts is slower regardless of gears or no gears. Its just a laws of physics thing. A certain energy put into moving a certain weight goes a certain speed. Gears can make starting easier, or climbing up a hill easier, but it cannot magically magnify the power that is going into the system. So if controller amps is similar, a 24v bike will seem slow compared to 36v or 48. Gears will get you up a slope with less power for sure, but going fast up that slope is just going to take more watts. So if this bike is a bit slower, its to be expected, even with the chain drive gearing helping it.

I better check my fork clearance! I can't seem to remember the wheels touching the motor but I don't jump on curbs alot too.

After few days of riding this kit, the word "Assistance" really starting to ring true. With this wattage it's best to treat the unit as support, and not primary drive (that's what the manual say anyway). It is a *damn good* assistant though, I can subjectively say that I do about 80%-85% less pedalling on my commute. Having a feel of it, I cannot also imagine how much less of assistance a 200w hub motor would be. Being geared, the torque can be selected using bike gears. Today I climbed a car parking lot at low gear with no fuss, albeit verrrry sloooow :lol:

The other thing I found out is... not pedalling feels weird and unnatural. Like the feet is floating, unlike riding a motorbike. So the instinct is always to pedal. It also feels *COLD* quickly if I don't pedal!

Thanks for the link of Cycle Analyst. I may consider it later as the voltmeter sems to do its duty fine at the moment. Next to investigate is at what voltage the green-yellow-red leds at the throttle trigger.

 

[lesspedal]

Hi zx,
Good to see another elation kit, i was starting to think i was the only one who had one in aus/vic 8)
Mine is 300 w,had it nearly a year.
Firstly i can say Allan Dow at elation will give you excellent after sales service and support.
Takes a while to get the hang of riding it, the leds on the throttle are the ones to take notice of,the object is to keep the green one on as long as possible,This is achieved by pedalling harder, changing down a gear,backing off on the throttle, or all three, as soon as the yellow light comes on if you don't the red light will come on and the battery will shut down [ lvc ] this is not good for the battery,This happens even when battery is fully charged due to pulling to high amps causing voltage sag. I avoid this happening at all times, for the first few charges I would suggest leaving it on charge overnight.
I have read all dogmans posts on this forum about the care of lifepo4 batts and he is right on the money.
With the installation of motor, make sure clamps are very tight and check for chain alignment frequently, if you have to adjust,remove one end of torsion bar first and re connect last ,tightening the torsion bar slightly to take up the slack.
Not sure about the acceleration bit, mine has plenty, Try holding the wheel off ground with gears about middle of range, does it reach full revs immediately or is there a delay of a few seconds ?
Speaking of gears.. you may already know this..but NEVER change front derailuer when under power.
Happy riding and feel free to pm me if need more info.
I am very happy with mine,it does just what an elec assist is supposed to do.
Regards Trevor.

 

[lesspedal]

ZX
Re reading your posts , you have some other concerns...
Legal limit in oz is 200w, having a blitz on ebikes locally, i asked traffic cop how do they know the power of a system,he replied that they look at whatever is stamped / stuck on motor, [ will have to get a new label made up for mine ,to show 200w].
Battery voltage you have is about right, it will improve as it balances with frequent charges,try to keep discharges shallow for a while.
One way traffic mentioned range, I have ridden 20klms uphill ,downhill and flat ave speed 20klms/hr, ended ride with 26.3 volts
Fitted cycle anylast from ev power , wa. Connected using anderson connectors,www.andersonpower.com.au
You need to be very good at soldering or they can be crimped, I purchased a proper crimper from anderson aus, well worth the money, but you can also hire from him $8.00 a week.
Using the c a to limit the amps is to complicated for me,after all it is just choking the motor,best just to go easy on throttle and you have the extra power there if you suddenly need it.
Using the ca i use about 7wh/klm over undulating terrain.
climbing a 5 to 6% grade with moderate pedalling at 15 klmh uses about 15wh/klm.
As a test i climbed 6% grade,3rd gear no pedalling 8 kph, total weight 110 kgs, 8kph might seem slow,but without the motor i wouldn't make it at all,have to walk, not as young as i used to be,
Hope all this helps.
Trevor.
Ps ,
I drive connex trains in melb, run parallel to a lot of bike paths,lots of bikes get on train,but i rarely see an e bike,a few hubs and ezip/izip but have never laid eyes on another elation. maybe someday.

 

[dogman dan]

Back to the gears discussion. For sure gears make the motor more efficient. In my recent testing, the gearmotor seems to have a bit of an edge on the direct drive since it gets going from a stop a bit better with the gears letting the motor be in the more efficient rpm zone sooner. But on test rides that have just a few starts and stops, and monitoring the power used to recharge it seems that similar speeds have similar energy use, geared or not geared, for flatland riding. The gearing efficiency seems to leve out once the motors are up to full speed. It's during starts or stops that the gears create efficiency so that effect is less noticeable when the ride is more nonstop.

I just wanted to point out that the gears won't make a weak motor strong, but they can make a weak motor perform nicer in most conditions. On flat land off the stop sign, my 350 watt fusin gearmotor is just as quick as the 700 watt aotema direct drive. But let a hill get really steep or the wind get strong, and the fusin will not keep up with the aotema. More power is more power. Put 700 watts through the fusin and it would surely outclimb the aotema, I just haven't done the test yet to say for certain.

200 watts may sound puny to us in the USA, but an assist that is equal to most peoples output is still pretty nice!

 

[OneWayTraffic]

Back to the gears discussion. For sure gears make the motor more efficient. In my recent testing, the gearmotor seems to have a bit of an edge on the direct drive since it gets going from a stop a bit better with the gears letting the motor be in the more efficient rpm zone sooner. But on test rides that have just a few starts and stops, and monitoring the power used to recharge it seems that similar speeds have similar energy use, geared or not geared, for flatland riding. The gearing efficiency seems to leve out once the motors are up to full speed. It's during starts or stops that the gears create efficiency so that effect is less noticeable when the ride is more nonstop.

I just wanted to point out that the gears won't make a weak motor strong, but they can make a weak motor perform nicer in most conditions. On flat land off the stop sign, my 350 watt fusin gearmotor is just as quick as the 700 watt aotema direct drive. But let a hill get really steep or the wind get strong, and the fusin will not keep up with the aotema. More power is more power. Put 700 watts through the fusin and it would surely outclimb the aotema, I just haven't done the test yet to say for certain.

200 watts may sound puny to us in the USA, but an assist that is equal to most peoples output is still pretty nice!

It's a rare person who can put out 200watts for more than a few minutes. The average couch potato is roughly 60w to the wheels, a fit and healthy person 100w and a Lance Armstrong 450w or so. Even the much maligned 200w Australian limit is enough to maintain 30km/h on the flats, assuming you have a decent tire/bike combo. It's hill climbing and headwinds where the extra is really needed.

 

[OneWayTraffic]

ZX
Re reading your posts , you have some other concerns...
Legal limit in oz is 200w, having a blitz on ebikes locally, i asked traffic cop how do they know the power of a system,he replied that they look at whatever is stamped / stuck on motor, [ will have to get a new label made up for mine ,to show 200w].
Battery voltage you have is about right, it will improve as it balances with frequent charges,try to keep discharges shallow for a while.
One way traffic mentioned range, I have ridden 20klms uphill ,downhill and flat ave speed 20klms/hr, ended ride with 26.3 volts
Fitted cycle anylast from ev power , wa. Connected using anderson connectors,www.andersonpower.com.au
You need to be very good at soldering or they can be crimped, I purchased a proper crimper from anderson aus, well worth the money, but you can also hire from him $8.00 a week.
Using the c a to limit the amps is to complicated for me,after all it is just choking the motor,best just to go easy on throttle and you have the extra power there if you suddenly need it.
Using the ca i use about 7wh/klm over undulating terrain.
climbing a 5 to 6% grade with moderate pedalling at 15 klmh uses about 15wh/klm.
As a test i climbed 6% grade,3rd gear no pedalling 8 kph, total weight 110 kgs, 8kph might seem slow,but without the motor i wouldn't make it at all,have to walk, not as young as i used to be,
Hope all this helps.
Trevor.
Ps ,
I drive connex trains in melb, run parallel to a lot of bike paths,lots of bikes get on train,but i rarely see an e bike,a few hubs and ezip/izip but have never laid eyes on another elation. maybe someday.

7wh/km. That's a very good efficiency number. I take it you pedal quite a bit? I too am seriously considering getting an Elation. Right now my options are: 9C kit with Nicads from ebikes.ca, Elation 300w from electricbikes.co.nz, a Wisper 905 from the same guys as Elation, or a Fusin gearmotor directly ordered from Fusin (plus I could order extra to resell.)

The Wisper has the best overall styling and refinment, the Elation has the gears plus a nice clean install, the 9c kit has to be ordered from overseas but has a CA built in and Nicads and ebikes.ca have a rock solid reputation.

 

[lesspedal]

Hi oneway,
Decisions, decisions....
Yes i pedal moderately all the time, except downhill, thats rest time.
It doesn't feel right, just sitting there using power only.
I have just turned 62 and ride just for fun and to keep a bit fit, so not much fitness if i don't pedal.
Where i live i have 4/6% grades everywhere i go, thats why i chose geared system. if there were never any hills i wouldn't need a power assist.
Tried the elation up a mountain,5 klms avge 9% grade but some were much more, some less, I would not have even considered it without assist.
20 ah batt would be ideal,however there is the added weight,and size[ would not fit neatly on diagonal tube as it does now] and also the extra cost.
I am happy with my rig ,does what i need it for.
Trev.

 

[dogman dan]

In my tests of a few different motors, I have been suprised and pleased how well the lower wattage, geared motors have worked compared to the brute strength of direct drives with twice the power. While the low watt systems do slow down a bit more on extreme steeps, or headwinds above 25 mph, they do still keep going, and provide a real assist that helps a ton. The only thing is you do have to shift to a lower gear and pedal a bit. But I have to admit, when I get back on the higher wattage motor, it feels good, and I suspect that if I ever build a 2000 watt bike, it will feel real good!

One thing often not discussed much, is that the lower wattage systems are much easier on the batteries. A 36v 10-15 amp controller is just going to use less power than a 36v 20-35 amp one. They may both use the exact same ammount at cruising speeds of say, 15-20 mph, but the big controller will pull much bigger amperage climbing a steep hill unless the rider uses half throttle and downshifts to ride slower. Some of us are performance oriented and others are shall we say, thrifty. The thrifty types really love the geared systems and lower wattages, and post allmost unbelievable ranges on thier rides. The performance guys just want to set a top speed record.

Both systems work great, but if you have high winds, or steep hills, or both like I do, gears or no gears, you will want around 400 watts minimum. If you winds are usuallly less than 15 mph, and the terrain is generally less than 5% grades then the low watt geared stuff is fine. 5% is actually pretty steep too.

 

[lesspedal]

5% is real steep if you aint got a motor
I think that with the 200w limit in oz, elation designer has made best use of this limit.
I would guess a 200w hub drive would hardly pull its own weight up a reasonable grade, although i haven't tried one.
You are right dogman, about battery capacity and use, i am probably the thrifty type, don't want to be caught out far from home.

 

[heathyoung]

200W kit is 350W Peak, the NSW RTA is working on changeing the definition of an ebike in the ADR's - some good stuff, mostly bad stuff though.

The new definition of an Ebike is 250W (with instantaneous peak over OK), power when pedalling ONLY, and assistance to 25Kph (where it cuts off) Only.

Its bad news.

 

[adrian_sm]

The new definition of an Ebike is 250W (with instantaneous peak over OK), power when pedalling ONLY, and assistance to 25Kph (where it cuts off) Only.

Bad news indeed. Where did you find this info?

I wish there was some way to register more powerful ebikes properly. But at the moment if you want to ride anything with more power, you essentailly have to be a converted motorbike, due to restrictions on tyre ratings, and findings someone to certify the design is suitable for the roads.

Which sucks, as I think there should be some middle ground, that is still a hybrid human/electric power but not limited to 200-250W or the size and weight of a motorbike conversion.

 

[voicecoils]

The new definition of an Ebike is 250W (with instantaneous peak over OK), power when pedalling ONLY, and assistance to 25Kph (where it cuts off) Only.

The new definition that you mention, is this current legislation and if so where is it applicable?

For NSW it is still 200W maximum mechanical output power of the motor.

See here: http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registration/otherinformation/scootersminibikes.html under "Exemptions"

There are no speed limits, motor cut-off speeds, pedal-first requirements, requirements or restrictions for throttles etc

The only guidance given is:

"Motor assisted pedal cycles with electric or petrol engines are exempt from registration, provided the maximum engine output power does not exceed 200 watts. These vehicles must have been designed as a bicycle - that is, to be propelled by human power, with the motor attached as a supplementary aid only. Riders must follow the same road rules as for pedal cycles without motors, including wearing a helmet."

The ADRs which the the RTA follows have not been changed or amended AFAIK.

 

[Kurt]

I did some more thinking about the Australian 200w limit over the weekend.

I went for a 30km ride with my wife along a dedicated bike path that runs parallel to the main road. My bike is 1800w and my wife's is around 900w. My wife's has a top speed of around 30kmh and mine 40kmh on the flat.What I found is that most of the guys on the light weight road bikes sat on about the same speed as I did 30 - 40kmh. When we came to a hill I had the ability to overtake them but rather than doing this I just took it easy. I always feel comfortable riding my bike like this as it doesn't draw attention to your bike. I was covering the distance at a good pace and the guys on the peddle bikes were working hard and sweating it out to keep up that pace but I was just peddling along with no effort at all . I like the 1800w of power to get me up the steepest hill or pull a heavy load with a bike trailer.Speed isn't something I am chasing with this bike. Anything over 40kmh and the wind starts to freeze your ears in the winter and your just burning your battery fighting wind resistance.

I guess what I am getting at is if you ride your ebike at peddle bike/ fit person on a road bike speeds and stick to the cycling laws. I really don't think you will have any problems. Its speed and silly actions that will attract the attention of the cops not the output wattage of your motor that's the last thing they are worried about.

I am sure you could have a 10,000w ebike and as long as you geared it not to go over 40kmh and didn't do burnouts or power monos in front of the cops they would leave you alone. On the same note if you have a modest e bike that's geared to go 70kmh watch them jump on you then.

Kurt.