ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION DELTA /WYE and SERIE/PAPALLEL stator

Is it possible to use solid state relays with tyristor output? I have one for three faze and up to 150A and it is 19x45x68mm. Two of them will fit in x5.

Looks like this one:
d53tp25d-crydom-new.jpg
 
another inspirational video!

doc, i noticed how the holes in the stator might allow the relay to be cylindrical such as yours, but smaller in diameter such that the contactor would fit through the hole in the stator.

then the relay could be almost as long as the inner hub to hub distance, so this can be a long cylindrical relay also.

even if it doesn't fit, you can remove the plate and mill out the area that the relay would need to fit, premount the wiring harness from the other side for the other side of the contact. cables snaked back through the holes in the stator and then out of the hub, so you could increase the cable gauge there again.

but i had another idea about using three separate controllers, each controller driving it's own individual phase, all three processors could run off the same timing source and then have some sort of logic circuit on top to follow the phases around and block out the 2 extra gate driver cycles, maybe an oscillating mask on the hall sensor input.

this might allow all three phases to be conducting at the same time without interfering with the other controllers. the timing is critical and then how to tie the timing of the gate signal mask, that's why i thought the hall signal could be masked so the gate signal would not be generated. don't really know what i'm talking about. maybe someone else does.

i am thinking it would just latch up, the commutations would be happening at each 120o, and cancel each other?
 
this thread is the reason this was patented 4 years ago:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6967417.html
 
Doctorbass said:
<snip>

These relay are so small than they could fin inside a normal X5 motor i guess ! but this is not necessary if you have no enough room inside your motor.. puting them close enough to the exterior of the motor is ok.

<snip>
Click to expand...

unfortunatetly they will not. they are just a bit too large. the rotor has to notched in a couple of places so that these relays can fit.

rick
 
potatonet said:
this thread is the reason this was patented 4 years ago:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6967417.html
Click to expand...

I think that this is just another example of a frivolous patent. it is not a new idea. Delta-Wye or what ever you want to call it has been around for almost as long as there have been AC machines. there is so much prior art that there is no way that this is an original idea.

this is probably one of those patents filed by someone in the hopes that someone else will actually make some money using a similar idea. then file numerous harrasing lawsuits in the hopes that some one will pay them some money to make them go away.

such tactics were used by oportunists to extort money from RIM over the Blackberry. even though the patent claims were defeated several times and the USPTO eventualy did rescind the patent as bogus. RIM paid the extortion so that it could continue operations unhindered. the money lost from down time would have been more than the extortion payment.

rick
 
Doctorbass said:
EVERY brushless motor that end with 3 phase wires can be mooded in DELTA STAR mode

To mod yours

You need:

-a brushless motor with 3 phase wire(usually they all have 3 phase in ebike and RC)
-you need one 3PDT relay or contactor(or 3 x SPDP that are activated at the exact same time by wiring their coil together)
-a bit of your time to mod your actual motor by opening it and taking the 3 phase wires that are soldered ogether inside the motor(coming from the winding) and to seperate them.
-Installing one wire to every of these 3 seperated tab from the winding to finally acheive 2 wires per phase.

see the image i took here for you:
Click to expand...

OMG I COULD MOD MY X5 @ 133v HOLY $%$#@

-steveo
 
steveo said:
Doctorbass said:
EVERY brushless motor that end with 3 phase wires can be mooded in DELTA STAR mode

To mod yours

You need:

-a brushless motor with 3 phase wire(usually they all have 3 phase in ebike and RC)
-you need one 3PDT relay or contactor(or 3 x SPDP that are activated at the exact same time by wiring their coil together)
-a bit of your time to mod your actual motor by opening it and taking the 3 phase wires that are soldered ogether inside the motor(coming from the winding) and to seperate them.
-Installing one wire to every of these 3 seperated tab from the winding to finally acheive 2 wires per phase.

see the image i took here for you:
Click to expand...

OMG I COULD MOD MY X5 @ 133v HOLY $%$#@

-steveo
Click to expand...


heh start hiring a ambulance for future tests :twisted:
 
Those relays look almost ideal, but I think you would need 6 of them since they are SPST.
It might take a timing or interlock circuit to make sure the contacts on one leg open before the other side closes. This would be pretty easy. A SPDT version of it would be the best.
 
flip found an excellent solution, it would take 6 cans for both states and 3 phases. therefore it could be switched with a DPDP momentary switch directly from the 72V pack voltage. i suspect it will switch at 8V too so it would work on 48V packs easily too.

they also have some mini relays, 12V coil and fairly large current capacity. these are DPST so would need 3 cans per wheel, or 6 if they were tied in parallel to increase current rating, and get to 72V for total coil voltage, and i would expect 48V to work too:

http://cgi.ebay.com/50pcs-12V-DC-Mini-P ... 592wt_1165


and they have an even smaller package, but with 5V coil. i can imagine 4 of these, 2 on each side of the stator plate, with their leads feeding out through the hole, epoxied to the surface of that stator plate next to the hole, to hold them, so 12 in series gets you to 60V nominal switching, should work.

http://cgi.ebay.com/50pcs-PCB-type-Mini ... 672wt_1165
 
could you please repost the eBay links or include the item numbers?

as posted the links do not work.

rick
 
u can get those 40A automotive aux lamp relays & pigtail sockets @ Princess Auto (typically Bosch brand).
if u wait for when they go on sale (happens at least a couple times a year) u can pick them up for 2 or 3 bucks apiece.
alyho the price has crept up recently over the previous sales price & they usually don't go on sale together.
 
Well I just looked around and found a good source for information on what the real difference between the termination types are.

After reading this post: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=392174 I feel like I understand how it is done.
 
Good link, thanks. It's given me an idea for another experiment. If RC motors are normally wired as delta, then changing them to wye would lower the Kv a fair bit, and improve efficiency. I'm sitting here looking at one of my poor Towerpro hack motors wondering just how I can get the wires out to change the termination to wye.

It would be really great if I could get a 215 Kv motor down to 125 Kv just by swapping a few wires around.

I think I need to put it in the oven and soften the epoxy so I can get the stator off..................

Jeremy
 
Actually, I think most RC motors normally come with wye connections. Steve Neu, for instance, only used delta-wired motors to get kVs that were in between the standard wye winds.

-- Gary
 
I've just taken the wiring of one of my Towerpro 5330s apart (actually an easy job than I thought) and it's definitely wired in delta. (or rather was, I've just finished unsoldering the ends of the wires, ready to bring them out separately).

It looks like this is simply done for expedience, as it's simpler to hook up each winding to it's neighbour at the cable termination, it saves having a bulky internal join. Once I've fitted Halls to this motor I'll test it against the other one that's still in stock configuration and see how it compares. If I can get a nice low value of Kv, then that will be great for a ten minute modification.

Here's a picture I took earlier of the part-disconnected wires, showing how easy it is to get at them:

3438669199_6f44a3e068.jpg


Jeremy
 
So I am still a little confused on how to set up the 3 relays to switch from wye to delta... I realize that with the relays off, I should connect the ends of all the coils together. How should I connect the relays together to switch to delta on the fly? Wouldn't the phase wires that go to the controller change?
 
GGoodrum said:
Actually, I think most RC motors normally come with wye connections. Steve Neu, for instance, only used delta-wired motors to get kVs that were in between the standard wye winds.

-- Gary
Click to expand...


Neu motors are exclusively Wye terminated, but most mass produced outrunners are Delta since the winding and termination is faster.
 
Steve has done some delta versions of the 1500 series in the past, but you are right, most are wye-configured. I also seem to recall that the 1900 "ORK"s could only be wye-configured, or maybe it was he couldn't do half-winds. I don't remember for sure, but I do know that there were lots fewer kV choices for the 1900s.

AstroFlight is sending me a special 3210 with all six phase wires this week. It turns out Bob already did one this way that he's been playing with this past week. He's going to button it up tomorrow, and send it down to me. Guess I'll need to start hunting down relays. ;)

-- Gary
 
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