ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION DELTA /WYE and SERIE/PAPALLEL stator

[liveforphysics]

Sadly Arlo, its not.

Delta and wye both produce the exact same torque for the same power in (battery volts* battery amps).

The wye configuration just increases the inductance and resistance making it easier on the controller ( less phase current multiplication when starting at low RPMs).

 

[Doctorbass]

These two speeds motor mod will for X5 and X400 will make a revolution as just like the 4110 fets did in our ebike community!!

I know that some people worry about buying low winding motor because they also want torque... so with that mod they will get both!

They won't necessarily get more torque..............

Now that we are seeing batteries with more than 50C discharge rates, there seems less justification for Delta/Wye switching.

What am I missing?

My opinion is that the problem is that it's not totally easy for most of the crowd to get HIGH CURRENT CONTROLLER AND HIGH CURRENT BATTERY THAT HAVE HIGH CURRENT BMS... unless they can assemble their custom battery... but it's not very easy for all and most of the popular battery like the ping...are limited to 40A BMS at 48V.... since torque is relative to current and or winding turn count, to get more torque they must choose high winding count motor type like the 10 x 6 or the 5304 or 5305 or 5306.

But being limited by that, they will have low top speed... The solution of playing with the winding count using relay can solve that problem and offer both mode... and buying a low winding count motor from first.

It work like this:

User always start from 0 kmh in serie mode until the back emf reach the battery voltage or close... Then they release the throttle, switch the relay OFF( that activate the parallel mode) then reengage the throttle and they will continu to accelerate to probably around real 160% of the serie mode.

For sure the no load speed will be like 200% when in parallel mode.. and i estimated the real on load speed to a realistic 60% gain if the controller current can sustain that power demand.


The reason why i preffer wiring the relay so that the non energized mode is PARALLEL is because of safety. If accidently while being at high speed parallel mode, one of the relay would cut or the power that energize the relay would cut, that would be catastrofic because we the back emf of the motor in serie mode would be TOO HIGH and would blow instantanously the controller.. WE WANT TO AVIOD ANY POSSIBILITY OF THE SERIE MODE AT HIGH SPEED. so with the non energized relay that make the parallel configuration we have a safer setup.

that said we must activate the relays to get the serie High torque mode.

Also having all the 6 relay connected in serie, that guaranty that the current into each relay coils is exactly the same and increase the chance that they all switch close or open to the same time. and also avoid the case where not all relay are in teh same state ( WE MUST MAKE THEM TO AVOID THAT STATE !) WE WANT ALL ON or ALL OFF nothing else!

Doc

 

[AussieJester]

What am I missing?

The need to have to do it :lol:

KiM

 

[Doctorbass]

Also.. serie Parallel can be done on most of the motors... not the delta wye

in fact.. Delta Wye dont work with Crystalyte motor due to the special angled motor stator head... every other motor like golden, magic pie, 9C etc, that have straigt stator head seem ok from now.

Serie parallel work on any motor and preferably the low winding count motor cause they have more winding strands making more possible the split in two individyal parts of the strands.. as well, the basic stands count MUST BE PAIR NUMBER.. 2 4 6 or 8 etc.. so we can divide in two equal winding.

Doc

here is a simplified detailed version of the relay wiring:

 

[Doctorbass]

I must not forget to thanks RICK for starting that serie parallel idea...

All credit to him!! :wink:

 

[Miles]

My opinion is that the problem is that it's not totally easy for most of the crowd to get HIGH CURRENT CONTROLLER AND HIGH CURRENT BATTERY THAT HAVE HIGH CURRENT BMS... unless they can assemble their custom battery... but it's not very easy for all and most of the popular battery like the ping...are limited to 40A BMS at 48V....

I see your point, Doc.

 

[Miles]

What am I missing?

The need to have to do it :lol:

KiM

 

[liveforphysics]

My opinion is that the problem is that it's not totally easy for most of the crowd to get HIGH CURRENT CONTROLLER AND HIGH CURRENT BATTERY THAT HAVE HIGH CURRENT BMS... unless they can assemble their custom battery... but it's not very easy for all and most of the popular battery like the ping...are limited to 40A BMS at 48V....

Are you by chance aware that 40amps at 48v at the battery makes the exact same torque in delta or wye?

Likewise, are you by chance aware that a 5302 or a 5306 both make identical torque when fed 40amps at 48v from the battery. The 5302 just has 3x the FET heating from the 3x increase in phase current multiplication.

 

[AussieJester]

My opinion is that the problem is that it's not totally easy for most of the crowd to get HIGH CURRENT CONTROLLER AND HIGH CURRENT BATTERY THAT HAVE HIGH CURRENT BMS... unless they can assemble their custom battery... but it's not very easy for all and most of the popular battery like the ping...are limited to 40A BMS at 48V.... since torque is relative to current and or winding turn count, to get more torque they must choose high winding count motor type like the 10 x 6 or the 5304 or 5305 or 5306.

So instead of buying/assembling better battery you recommend pulling the motor apart and fitting half a dozen relays, then
wire it all up in Delta/Wye config...? My opinion is if they can manage this daunting task, wouldn't assembling a battery
pack be a walk in the park Doc?

KiM

EDIT: curious what effect you think these relays packed in the frock motor have on the flow of air your expecting with these John in Cr inspired vent holes

 

[liveforphysics]

So instead of buying/assembling better battery you recommend pulling the motor apart and fitting half a dozen relays, then
wire it all up in Delta/Wye config...? My opinion is if they can manage this daunting task, wouldn't assembling a battery
pack be a walk in the park Doc?

The thing is, it makes no differnce in torque for a given amount of current pulled from the battery... It just lessens controller heating when starting out.

 

[AussieJester]

So instead of buying/assembling better battery you recommend pulling the motor apart and fitting half a dozen relays, then
wire it all up in Delta/Wye config...? My opinion is if they can manage this daunting task, wouldn't assembling a battery
pack be a walk in the park Doc?

The thing is, it makes no differnce in torque for a given amount of current pulled from the battery... It just lessens controller heating when starting out.

I see... still seems like alot of work for little gain to me...i think i am missing something also haha :lol: Thx Luke

KiM

 

[rkosiorek]

this may be an extereme mod. and you may consider the gain trivial, but in reality it is not. especially not when you are a racer and are trying to get every advantage over your competition. which is true for both the good doctor and steveo. both of them already have custom built controllers and battery packs capable of supplying a bazillion amps, so that just leaves the tweaking the motor. and this is extreme tweaking of the motor. would i do this for an everyday ride? not likely.

so far as i know only 3 people have attempted a series/parallel motor like this. Steveo, DoctorBass and myself. i'm looking foward to see their results and opinions.

rick

edited: to clarify that this refers to a motor that switches between series and parallel windings and not Delta/Wye. i did a 5302/5304 using 50A relays and doc and steveo have both done 5303/5306 using larger 80A relays

 

[Doctorbass]

Luke, I am not talking about DELTA WYE now.. but SERIE-PARALLEL stator

the goal is to play with the KV pof the motor.. ( serie parallel make twice difference) instead of 1.7 like delta wye and efficiency is better due to no circulating current parasit... and as well X5 can not be delta wye.. but can just be serie parallel
Also it's a 5303 to 5306.. so i want to gain efficiency at low speed ( 5306 serie mode will help that)

5306 serie mode: less heat lost at low rpm.. and will be good for offroad on that future DH ebike
5303 parallel mode: will help enhence the powerband and speed.

That's what i mean.

Doc

 

[liveforphysics]

Luke, I am not talking about DELTA WYE now.. but SERIE-PARALLEL stator

That's what i mean.

Doc

Ohh! Lol, my mistake, I thought we were still doing delta-wye. I should have read more carefully.

 

[Arlo1]

My opinion is that the problem is that it's not totally easy for most of the crowd to get HIGH CURRENT CONTROLLER AND HIGH CURRENT BATTERY THAT HAVE HIGH CURRENT BMS... unless they can assemble their custom battery... but it's not very easy for all and most of the popular battery like the ping...are limited to 40A BMS at 48V....

Are you by chance aware that 40amps at 48v at the battery makes the exact same torque in delta or wye?

Likewise, are you by chance aware that a 5302 or a 5306 both make identical torque when fed 40amps at 48v from the battery. The 5302 just has 3x the FET heating from the 3x increase in phase current multiplication.

So a x5304 accelerates the same as a x5308?

 

[rkosiorek]

i would not think so. never had any experience with the 5308 but with a 5304/5302 with a 48V 20" wheel combination i would expect the 5304 to make about 85Nm torque at stall or 0kph. it would make reasonable torque of at least 40Nm out to approx 25 or 30Kph. the max speed possible would be 40Kph.at which point the BEMF will choke off the motor completetly. the 5302 on the other hand will start off at 60 to 65Nm torque at stall. at 30Kph the torque will be about the same as the 5304. at 40Kph the 5403 has absolutetly nothing left while the 5302 will still be making about 30Nm of torque. the 5302 will run out to over 80Kph before the BEMF chokes it off.

both motors will peak at the same power out about 1300W. the 5304 will peak at around 40Kph and the 5302 will be nearer to 65Kph

so below 30Kph the 5304 will provide better performance and acceleration. over 30 you want to have the 5302. for a 48V batterypack at least. if you want to go faster you need a higher voltage battery pack. this is why DoctorBass and Steveo are using 100V + batteries - more speed.

rick

 

[liveforphysics]

My opinion is that the problem is that it's not totally easy for most of the crowd to get HIGH CURRENT CONTROLLER AND HIGH CURRENT BATTERY THAT HAVE HIGH CURRENT BMS... unless they can assemble their custom battery... but it's not very easy for all and most of the popular battery like the ping...are limited to 40A BMS at 48V....

Are you by chance aware that 40amps at 48v at the battery makes the exact same torque in delta or wye?

Likewise, are you by chance aware that a 5302 or a 5306 both make identical torque when fed 40amps at 48v from the battery. The 5302 just has 3x the FET heating from the 3x increase in phase current multiplication.

So a x5304 accelerates the same as a x5308?

If they have identical copper fill, yes, the x5304 and x5308 both are able to do identical torque, and identical continuous torque, and accelerate with exactly the same performance. The difference is simply that the x5304 will be having 2x the phase current multiplication occurring, which makes for substantial additional burden on the controller.

This thread will help:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19590

 

[Doctorbass]

Electric transmission by serie parallel or delta wye is exactly like playing with gear ratio on a car IEC engine transmission... in both case we play with the Kv of the motor.. but some higher winding are better at low speed than lower winding .


a 5306 bemf reach the battery voltage too soon and stop accelerating sooner... so we just mod it into a 5303 to re gain aceleration and continu pushing current on battery to continu pushing the ebike for crazy speed

That avoid using complicated 150V controlle and 45s battery and BMS assembly ... I think that adding 6 relay in the motor is simpler :wink:

BTW i should be able o produce qty of the PCB for the X5 motor to support and link every relay without confusion for anybody! :wink:

PCB desing v1.0 is done.. ( very basic) but i'll test it very soon. The 80A relay i use have beed tested to up to 140 celsius without any problem

The PCB will fit directly on the center of the motor and the relay can fit perfectly with minor grinding job on the aluminum... Everybody can do that within an hour...

Spliting the winding phase wire strands and identifying them and installing the pcb in the motor and soldering everything cold be done in around 3 hours...

3 little hours for being able to BOOST or... "UP SHIFT GEAR" with your powerfull X5 motor!!! and gain speed! THAT'S WHAT I WANT TO OFFER

I should be able to supply the working PCB soon.

Doc

 

[liveforphysics]

Doc-

It's not like a car transmission, because a transmission keeps power constant and multiplies torque. You're dealing with something that keeps torque potential constant, but cuts the power potential for a given input voltage in half when in series mode.

Say you're pulling 100amps at 100v from the battery.

If the controller is feeding a 3-turn or a 6-turn motor, they both make identical torque. The 6-turn motor isn't capable of a single bit more torque than the 3-turn motor for the same amount of input power. It places no additional burden on the battery or motor to equal the torque of the 6-turn with the 3-turn. The controller just makes more heat from twice the phase current multiplication occuring in the 3-turn.

You will notice no performance/acceleration differnce than a 3-turn motor alone could provide, you just will have a cooler operating controller by doing the series/parallel switching.

Just want to make sure you're not getting your hopes up for having some sort of torque advantage starting out in 6-turn mode. The advantage of keeping the controller cooler is great though, and should allow things to be pushed harder for a given controller.

 

[steveo]

Electric transmission by serie parallel or delta wye is exactly like playing with gear ratio on a car IEC engine transmission... in both case we play with the Kv of the motor.. but some higher winding are better at low speed than lower winding .


a 5306 bemf reach the battery voltage too soon and stop accelerating sooner... so we just mod it into a 5303 to re gain aceleration and continu pushing current on battery to continu pushing the ebike for crazy speed

That avoid using complicated 150V controlle and 45s battery and BMS assembly ... I think that adding 6 relay in the motor is simpler :wink:

BTW i should be able o produce qty of the PCB for the X5 motor to support and link every relay without confusion for anybody! :wink:

PCB desing v1.0 is done.. ( very basic) but i'll test it very soon. The 80A relay i use have beed tested to up to 140 celsius without any problem

The PCB will fit directly on the center of the motor and the relay can fit perfectly with minor grinding job on the aluminum... Everybody can do that within an hour...

Spliting the winding phase wire strands and identifying them and installing the pcb in the motor and soldering everything cold be done in around 3 hours...

3 little hours for being able to BOOST or... "UP SHIFT GEAR" with your powerfull X5 motor!!! and gain speed! THAT'S WHAT I WANT TO OFFER

I should be able to supply the working PCB soon.

Doc

Hey Doc,

For now .. i'll be setting the dual winding x5 a side for a bit.

I want to go back to star/delta motor set with irfb 4110's!

friend of mine is getting 1000w scooter hub motor.. he show me the stator already .. the stator is equal to x5 stator .. however wheel size is 16" scooter wheel ...

i will have photos for you asap!

-steveo

 

[John in CR]

LFP,

I think you have some wires crossed. Same copper fill of the same motor means identical maximum torque is possible, but that's because the lower turn count can handle more current. For a fixed voltage and current, the higher turn count motor will certainly have more torque, and the lower turn count motor will certainly have a higher speed.

John

 

[liveforphysics]

LFP,

I think you have some wires crossed. Same copper fill of the same motor means identical maximum torque is possible, but that's because the lower turn count can handle more current. For a fixed voltage and current, the higher turn count motor will certainly have more torque, and the lower turn count motor will certainly have a higher speed.

John

For the same power input (battery amps * voltage), the phase current would be twice as high in the 3-turn as it would be in the 6-turn. The torque balances. Half the turns, but twice the phase current = same torque.

If you take a look at the astro .pdf guide as an example, they have a wide turn's ratio available for the motor, between 1-turn clear up to 24-turns. All of the motor winding combo's yeild identical torque for identical power levels. The difference is, when sending the same amount of power to the 3 turn, the controller has to cut the PWM% to be half of what the 6-turn would be getting, which halves the voltage it's getting, and doubles the current. The 3-turn has half the distance of twice as thick of wire though, with balances against the x^2 relationship with current and heating, so both make identical motor heat, the controller is the only guy that gets hammered.


http://www.astroflight.com/pdfs/3220.pdf

 

[John in CR]

Luke,

There has to be something else going on in a controller to limit the current, otherwise my lesser controllers would have blown long ago with my motors. The Kt changes with the windings, and I don't believe the phase current automatically multiplies to end up with the same torque for a given controller. I do believe that it does do that to some extent, so the guys won't see double the torque, but there has to be some kind of current limiting going on with these controllers. Otherwise my motor, which propels fat me to faster speeds for a given voltage than any of these other hub motors, would be king of the hill and would have been a wheelie machine on the red bike.

Even if the only difference is that the series winding connection gets the into its range of better efficiency at much lower speeds, that would be a pretty big difference in acceleration. That, along with better efficiency at lower speeds, would probably make the effort worthwhile.

Take your view to the extreme, and use a 20a bike controller to run the highest turn count Astro, and then run the 1 turn Astro with the same controller. That 24 turn Astro will put out the full 750in oz of torque, but there's just no possibility that the phase current would go to the 375 amps that the 1 turn motor would need for that torque.

 

[andreym]

The thing is controller could not multiply the current to infinite, and when you starting from dead stop the voltage on phases are very low.
So every controller have phase current limit and within this AMP limit 6turns windings will eat more voltage at low speeds than 3turn,
as power=voltage*current the more turns will give you more power at lower speeds because the phase voltage would be higher than on less turns windings.
The Current will be limited by controller in both cases but more resistance means more voltage at the same current applied.
So electrical gear is great for drag-racing (is that will be your secret weapon, Doc? )

 

[Doctorbass]

The thing is controller could not multiply the current to infinite, and when you starting from dead stop the voltage on phases are very low.
So every controller have phase current limit and within this AMP limit 6turns windings will eat more voltage at low speeds than 3turn,
as power=voltage*current the more turns will give you more power at lower speeds because the phase voltage would be higher than on less turns windings.
The Current will be limited by controller in both cases but more resistance means more voltage at the same current applied.
So electrical gear is great for drag-racing (is that will be your secret weapon, Doc? )

shhht! :wink: ..

btw, i'm correcting all my previously understanding of Phase current and current multiplication. LFP and Justin are now convincing me to correctly better play with the dark side of electrons and copper!

Doc