Envia Systems twice the energy density of lithium cobalt

[Hillhater]

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=24968

Why post a link to this same thread ??

 

[Paul_G]

http://enviasystems.com/announcement/

 

[USAEBIKECO]

Hopefully in about 5 years we can get our hands on these batteries They sound awesome!

I wonder what the pricing will be?

 

[grindz145]

It smells suspiciously of vapor-ware and bloated specs...

 

[fivari]

This would mean a major breakthrough for EV!!

I just found this website: Envia systems pretendig the production of 400 Wh/kg automotive grade 45 Ah lithium-ion rechargeable cells for half of the actual cost.

I was surpised that Envia has not been mentioned here yet. It might interest some of the ES-members.
Specifiactions found on bariumtitanate blogspot are:

1) 400wh/kg
2) Automotive Grade (not a prototype)
3) $150/kwh
4) Validated by US Navy Testing
5) General Motors Funding of $17Mil

 

[Arlo1]

This would mean a major breakthrough for EV!!

I just found this website: Envia systems pretendig the production of 400 Wh/kg automotive grade 45 Ah lithium-ion rechargeable cells for half of the actual cost.

I was surpised that Envia has not been mentioned here yet. It might interest some of the ES-members.
Specifiactions found on bariumtitanate blogspot are:

1) 400wh/kg
2) Automotive Grade (not a prototype)
3) $150/kwh
4) Validated by US Navy Testing
5) General Motors Funding of $17Mil

I cant find where they have them listed for sale....? Pretending to sell???

 

[cwah]

Smells smoky-ware to me too :lol:

 

[Arlo1]

Smells smoky-ware to me too :lol:

I dont think its vapourware they posted specs that are not so good after a few cycles as luke pointed out so i think in time it maybe something realy good.

 

[spkpn]

...they posted specs that are not so good after a few cycles as luke pointed out so...

I wonder whether anybody read my earlier post here??

 

[Hillhater]

Has anyone seen any similar cycle/capacty data for other cells ( CalB, A123, RC LiPo etc)
Just looking for a comparison . !

 

[jonescg]

That's a lot of cells in parallel to get something remotely useful for an EV though... C/3? Come on, we need at least 5C continuous.

 

[cwah]

Has anyone seen any similar cycle/capacty data for other cells ( CalB, A123, RC LiPo etc)
Just looking for a comparison . !

From the graph, does it loose almost half of its capacity after the initial few cycles? So realistically from 400Wh/kg it's more like 200wh/kg after few cycles?

 

[Hillhater]

From the graph, does it loose almost half of its capacity after the initial few cycles? So realistically from 400Wh/kg it's more like 200wh/kg after few cycles?

No. .. you are miss-reading the data.

 

[Arlo1]

That's a lot of cells in parallel to get something remotely useful for an EV though... C/3? Come on, we need at least 5C continuous.

You can fit more cells in parellel because of the energy density. And 3C discharge on a 45ah pac is 135 amps so you would only need 1-2 for avarge motorcycle use with that AH. But my problem is I need higher voltage so I would be looking at 20-30s for most my aplications. I Don't think I will have room for 45ah cells. So I will need maybe 20 ah cells with this energy density...? Then the 3c becomes a problem. Hmmm I wonder what the max c rating will be for a burst? My one build I need at least 4kw/h on the bike. So 30s = 111v nominal (I have to go back and check nominal cell levels) but 4000wh/111=36 ah so I will need at least 36 ah but at the same time I will not be able to fit to many cells on the bike maybe with these 2x the hk lipo so maybe 8kw/h... which meens 72AH and with 3c thats 216amps avalible... 216amp x 111 volts = 23976watts (32hp) Not terible but not awesome. So it would depend on the burst.

 

[Arlo1]

Wait is "C/3" 1/3 C? If so forget it, because at this point they are junk and I will remove my last post.

 

[spkpn]

...C/3? Come on, we need at least 5C continuous.

Wait is "C/3" 1/3 C? If so forget it, because at this point they are junk and I will remove my last post.

arrghh...1/3c is a quite common rate of discharge when measuring cell capacity....it doesnt tell you nothing whatsoever (good or bad) about how the cell performs at say 5c?

Also, I think you should get away from looking at those c values, they dont mean much! What counts (for Power) is power density and that increases when energy density is encreased (with the same c rate)...
As an example: My 20KG of 400Wh/Kg battery pack could dish out the exact same amount of power @1c as your 20KG pack of 100Wh/Kg cells @4c. Difference is that the first pack is able to do it for an hour while the latter is emptied after 15mins...

conclusion: It is a complete misconception that batteries for a motorcycle (or drag cars or whatever) need any c rate (be it 3,5,20 or 150)! What is important, is that a pack that can dish out the desired power (say 50KW, for a decent bike^^) and can hold enough energy for longer trips (say 10KWh, also quite decent imho) must
a) fit into the bike----> good enough volumetric power and energy density.
b) be not to heavy----> good enough gravimetric densities for power and energy.

A (totaly imaginary) cell with 1KWh/g that could only be discharged at 1/30 C would easily beat the shit out of nanotech superduper 100C Lipos in drag racing...(inspite of the C rate).

just my .5$

 

[neptronix]

It is, Arlo.
Usually used when referring to lead acid batteries, since they only deliver full capacity at super low C rates.

These are good for a super high range pack. Want a 1000 mile range electric car? ok, they may work.
at 400wHr/KG, you can surely pack a lot on to an electric bike too..

 

[spkpn]

hese are good for a super high range pack. Want a 1000 mile range electric car? ok, they may work.
at 400wHr/KG, you can surely pack a lot on to an electric bike too..

And a 1000Mi range pack will also deliver quite some power at low c rates. And just to mention it, it doesnt matter how the pack is wired (many parallels or many in series). The possible output in power is determined from the numbers of cells in total (not the number of cells in parallel or series).

 

[Arlo1]

...C/3? Come on, we need at least 5C continuous.

Wait is "C/3" 1/3 C? If so forget it, because at this point they are junk and I will remove my last post.

arrghh...1/3c is a quite common rate of discharge when measuring cell capacity....it doesnt tell you nothing whatsoever (good or bad) about how the cell performs at say 5c?

Also, I think you should get away from looking at those c values, they dont mean much! What counts (for Power) is power density and that increases when energy density is encreased (with the same c rate)...
As an example: My 20KG of 400Wh/Kg battery pack could dish out the exact same amount of power @1c as your 20KG pack of 100Wh/Kg cells @4c. Difference is that the first pack is able to do it for an hour while the latter is emptied after 15mins...

conclusion: It is a complete misconception that batteries for a motorcycle (or drag cars or whatever) need any c rate (be it 3,5,20 or 150)! What is important, is that a pack that can dish out the desired power (say 50KW, for a decent bike^^) and can hold enough energy for longer trips (say 10KWh, also quite decent imho) must
a) fit into the bike----> good enough volumetric power and energy density.
b) be not to heavy----> good enough gravimetric densities for power and energy.

A (totaly imaginary) cell with 1KWh/g that could only be discharged at 1/30 C would easily beat the shit out of nanotech superduper 100C Lipos in drag racing...(inspite of the C rate).

just my .5$

How do you figure ??? Higher C rate meens less weight you have to get moving for the same hp worth of batteries! For drag racing you want the highest amp batteriers with the least amount of weight hence the desire for a high c rate!

 

[neptronix]

hese are good for a super high range pack. Want a 1000 mile range electric car? ok, they may work.
at 400wHr/KG, you can surely pack a lot on to an electric bike too..

And a 1000Mi range pack will also deliver quite some power at low c rates. And just to mention it, it doesnt matter how the pack is wired (many parallels or many in series). The possible output in power is determined from the numbers of cells in total (not the number of cells in parallel or series).

That would be a very impractical setup. You'd need a BMS that could monitor hundreds of cells in series on a bike. On a car, you'd need a BMS that monitored 10's of thousands of cells ( which would be extremely expensive ) . You'd also need a SUPER low kV motor ( something that would do a few thousand RPM on thousands or tens of thousands of volts ), and also you'd need a charger that took 120-480v and turned it into 480v-99,000v.

no such equipment exists in the eBike, electric motorcycle, or EV Car world.

 

[neptronix]

...C/3? Come on, we need at least 5C continuous.

Wait is "C/3" 1/3 C? If so forget it, because at this point they are junk and I will remove my last post.

arrghh...1/3c is a quite common rate of discharge when measuring cell capacity....it doesnt tell you nothing whatsoever (good or bad) about how the cell performs at say 5c?

Also, I think you should get away from looking at those c values, they dont mean much! What counts (for Power) is power density and that increases when energy density is encreased (with the same c rate)...
As an example: My 20KG of 400Wh/Kg battery pack could dish out the exact same amount of power @1c as your 20KG pack of 100Wh/Kg cells @4c. Difference is that the first pack is able to do it for an hour while the latter is emptied after 15mins...

conclusion: It is a complete misconception that batteries for a motorcycle (or drag cars or whatever) need any c rate (be it 3,5,20 or 150)! What is important, is that a pack that can dish out the desired power (say 50KW, for a decent bike^^) and can hold enough energy for longer trips (say 10KWh, also quite decent imho) must
a) fit into the bike----> good enough volumetric power and energy density.
b) be not to heavy----> good enough gravimetric densities for power and energy.

A (totaly imaginary) cell with 1KWh/g that could only be discharged at 1/30 C would easily beat the shit out of nanotech superduper 100C Lipos in drag racing...(inspite of the C rate).

just my .5$

How do you figure ??? Higher C rate meens less weight you have to get moving for the same hp worth of batteries! For drag racing you want the highest amp batteriers with the least amount of weight hence the desire for a high c rate!

Easy. Most of the cells we are using are in the 150wHr/KG range. If these are in the 400wHr/KG range, then you could have about 2.75x more capacity per weight ( and likely size ). Effectively, you get the same current at 1C, but you need a pack around 3 times the amp hours, at a very little size/weight penalty.

If you were designing a system that ran at 1C, you'd need 3 times the capacity, but you'd only need a tiny bit more space.
You'd have 3 times the mileage.
That's the advantage of super low C rate, super high capacity cells.

Then the only consideration is cost. If these cells are a third of the cost as the 1C battery you were looking at, then that's awesome

I want a 100 mile pack that fits in my bike's triangle. This would do it..

 

[spkpn]

That would be a very impractical setup. You'd need a BMS that could monitor hundreds of cells in series on a bike. On a car, you'd need a BMS that monitored 10's of thousands of cells ( which would be extremely expensive ) . You'd also need a SUPER low kV motor ( something that would do a few thousand RPM on thousands or tens of thousands of volts ), and also you'd need a charger that took 120-480v and turned it into 480v-99,000v.

no such equipment exists in the eBike, electric motorcycle, or EV Car world.

Why would I wire them all in series Parallel blocks are basically one cell (no need to manage them individually). I could (if I had such cells^^) for example build a 20P36S pack from the 45Ah cels to get a 120KWh, 133Volt Pack that weighs 300Kg (ok assume 500Kg) and cost about 18K$ (reality factor, assume 20K) if the date is correct.

Edit: and I could draw 40Kw continuousely at C/3....

 

[Arlo1]

. But when you look at a nanotech with 130c discharge you will need these around 40c to compeat! Edit sorry my iphone is a pita! I quoted it all wrong!

 

[spkpn]

But when you look at a nanotech with 130c discharge you will need these around 40c to compeat!

He said that he wanted a 100 miles pack and I guess he doesnt plan to do his 100Miles in 1.5 minutes

However, I agree that nanotechs are better for dragracing than the batteries discussed here

nanotech: almost 15kW/Kg of powerdensity
envia(if they are good for 1c): 0.4Kw/Kg powerdensity

 

[Arlo1]

But when you look at a nanotech with 130c discharge you will need these around 40c to compeat!

He said that he wanted a 100 miles pack and I guess he doesnt plan to do his 100Miles in 1.5 minutes

However, I agree that nanotechs are better for dragracing than the batteries discussed here

nanotech: almost 15kW/Kg of powerdensity
envia(if they are good for 1c): 0.4Kw/Kg powerdensity

Yup i edited my post and i agree with you now!