Eonyx -talk me out of it if you can

[metalairhead]

Eonyx 48V 20ah battery pack with charger (LiFePO4)
http://www.electricrider.com/batteries/eonyx.htm
X-CT4840B Crystalyte speed controller
Phoenix X-W5304R-26 Cruiser hub motor kit (rear)
total cost: $2300+

The hub motor simulator at http://www.ebikes.ca/simulator/ projects
initial torque of 55 lbs.,
output power of 950 W at 18 mph,
efficiency > 70% from 15 - 33 mph, and
top speed is > 35 mph.

The Eonyx comes with a six month money back warranty (less shipping). Electric Rider states they will receive their first shipment sometime in December.

I'm thinking, "What more SHOULD I want from a battery setup?"

 

[fechter]

I can't talk you out of it. Sounds like a good setup.

The only thing I would worry about is warranty. The LiFePO4 batteries really don't have much of a track record yet because they're too new. It's a bit of a gamble.

Lead, on the other hand is known to suck for sure.

If the controller blows (unlikely at 48v), we know how to fix that.

 

[Joshua Goldberg]

You asked what more should you want? That is simple, ask the Question if the Battery is so bloody wonderful and lasts 2,000 Cycles, why not have the Balls to offer a Warranty longer than a mere 6 Months?

That really short Warranty must give you some indication of the trust level the Seller has in their Battery and do you really want to spend all that money on something that might have the same lifespan as Hostess Twinkie?

I have not looked at the website recently so if this isn't there now, it was before. It stated this Battery is the Same as the A123 LIFEPO4, well it isn't the same, not even close to the same and A123 has a 2,000 Cycle Warranty. Now if this Electicrider LIFEPO4 was the same as A123 with a 2000 Cycle Warranty, then the really obvious question is why doesn't the Electricrider Lifepo4 also have a 2,000 Cycle Warranty and the answer is because it ain't the same as A123

A123 with a 3 Year Warranty
Valence with a 3 Year Warranty
LifeBatt with a 3 Year Warranty

Electricrider with a 6 Month Warranty

 

[Joshua Goldberg]

I just looked at the Electricrider LIFEPO4 price and warranty and something is a bit wrong there.

Electricrider is NOT basing their Warranty on the Number of Cycles but on the Number of Months you have the Battery.

So your average commute is 5 Cycles weekly for 50 weeks a year = 250 Cycles and your Warranty Expires.

What if you don't get to ride 5 days a week....the Warranty still expires

Warranty = if the Pack Dies before Month 6 you get a Refund, Day 181 you get a Credit with a Value of $750.00 on your $1,500.00 Pack, Means you've just lost $750.00. Day 211 you just lost $875.00 and Day 241 You've lost $1,000.00

Free of Manufacturing Defect?

Is Electricrider providing you with the name and contact information of this Manufacturer? Always good to do your homework, you know check to see if the Product has a UL Certification, was the Battery tested by and Certified by BATSO, what is the track record of the company?

And best of all, after your Warrnaty is gone and you still have a thousand or more Cycles left to go, who does Service on your Battery, BMS and Charger and at what cost and in which Hemisphere?

 

[Ypedal]

Someone has to be the first to buy one and report back to the rest of us !!

But, speaking from experience, having ordered the first pack down the pipe from Andy at FalconEV, problems can occur, and when they do you want someone with a backbone to support what they sell.. :?

These chinese life packs are new, the electronics *( BMS and Chargers ) are really not refined yet.. not even close.. so what ever you receive.. consider yourself a guineapig and be ready for just about anything.

the 6 month warrantee part is not the greatest concern, but is important none the less.. If the pack arrives in good condition, and the charger works well.. with UL stickers etc... rock on.. but be aware that it's not a multi million dollar product !!!!

 

[Joshua Goldberg]

Anyone know whether the Lifepo4 from Electricrider actually has a UL Certification? The lack of this certification will remove any chance in hell of your Home Insurance being valid if your house burns down while charging

As for the idea that someone has to be a Guinea Pig and buy one, why not the owners of Electricrider as the Guinea Pig or Scott MacGregor at EVDeals who sells stuff from Electricrider?

I like Lifepo4 compared to all the BBQ starters (Li-Po) people buy but so far very few companies have been able to produce a battery that will get more than 300 Cycles and if the idea of spending $1,500.00 to get 300 Cycles makes sense to you then go for it

And I see nothing on the Electricrider site to say this battery and charger was Tested and Certified by an Independent Lab?

Sooo many questions and no one to answer them

Scott used to be on the e-bike Forums and Dave from Electricrider ignores these Forums, the Battery manufacturer isn't even known, so where do the answers come from ???

 

[Ypedal]

yeah.. sucks.. don't it.

Problem is that you can't trust a vendor to provide non-biased test results, it's in their best interest to sugar coat things best they can and you can bet your ass they all do it.

What i want to know is feedback from not only one but a few buyers, and credentials of their testing methods to be fair.

And i know.. that's ALOT to ask.

Cart before the mule.. huh..

 

[TylerDurden]

Ja, buyer beware.

Some pix of the internals would be a good start. I've said it before (and I'll say it again), I wouldn't buy any pack where the cells are sealed into the enclosure where they cannot be verified to be what is claimed.

re: Warranty... In a highly competitive market, the warranty can make a huge difference: a relatively unknown Hyundai motors broke-into the US market by offering the best warranty in the biz... I'll wager you've seen more than a few of their cars on the road by now. Everybody won: Hyundai is now a player, the other mfrs ponyed-up better warrantees and consumers got more choices and value in smogboxes.

 

[oatnet]

Anyone know whether the Lifepo4 from Electricrider actually has a UL Certification? The lack of this certification will remove any chance in hell of your Home Insurance being valid if your house burns down while charging

The Trollinator is right - there is no UL certification on this battery, so you shouldn't experiment with it under controlled conditions.

There is also no UL certification on your controller, or your hub motor, or your throttle, or on anything 'e' related to your bike - so you should all just give up on having electric bikes altogether.

In fact, we all should stop calling ourselves 'enthusiasts', and stop trying anything unproven (Reardon Metal, anyone?), or anything lacking UL cert, an independant lab review, or blessing by a voodoo priestess. Instead, we should all stop using electric bikes until the industry gets the hint, and starts getting a UL certification on every product - or until the Trollinator's best buddy starts selling them.

I like Lifepo4 compared to all the BBQ starters (Li-Po) people buy but so far very few companies have been able to produce a battery that will get more than 300 Cycles

So far, I have seen you and your best buddy Don Harmon make this claim. You are both biased - Don as a competing vendor, and you as Don's best buddy. Don was unable to back it up with hard evidence, so in my mind it is still propoganda - maybe you can do better.

I got some of the first cells to arrive in the US, and I have been cycling one of the early 36v packs fairly regularily. So far I have completed 114 cycles on it, and no significant degradation. Completing 300 cycles, at reasonable charge/discharge rates, in the same time period is pretty impressive.

 

[oatnet]

re: Warranty... In a highly competitive market, the warranty can make a huge difference: a relatively unknown Hyundai motors broke-into the US market by offering the best warranty in the biz...

I partly agree with you TD , but I feel the situations are different.

While this was the case in a 'highly competitive market', there are very few vendors selling LiFePO4 cells and packs - it is a struggle to simply get product, let alone shop based on warrantee. Without lots of competition, there isn't much to drive manufacturers to issue warrantees. Even if they do offer the warrantee, there is very little consumer confidence that the manufacturer will still be around, or actually honor the warrantee instead of claiming customer error.

Which gets me to the second point - A car is a pretty mature product, any no-nothing can step behind the wheel and drive them, or go to a local dealer and get them serviced, without shortening their lifespan. However, there are LOTS of things that we can do to abuse batteries and shorten their cycle life, without a way to establish root cause. Battery packs are very much 'enthusist' items without local support, they require knowledge and skill to operate/maintain, and as such are subject to many hazards that can shorten their life. It is not the fault of the manufacturer if the product's life is shortened by our mistakes.

So I think the uncompetitive market, and immature class of product, make it a different situation, and us unlikely to see a lot of effective warrantees on battery packs. I would love the safety and security to have effective warrantees - but heck if China can't make toys that aren't poisonous, how do we expect them to make ebike parts durable enough for warrantee?

-JD

 

[Joshua Goldberg]

Rumors of Don Harmon and I taking moonlight strolls hand in hand are totally unfounded.

As for e-bikes not being UL Certified, Have never heard of an e-bike suffering spontanious combustion or bursting into flames without a battery being connected. Hopefully no one is Daft enough to leave their battery on their bike with a Non-UL Certified Charger because their e-bike could go off like a roman candle

I don't have a problem being connected to Don Harmon because he has gone way way beyond anyone else in testing and ensuring the quality of the LIFEPO4 he is importing into North America. Don is Co-Owner of the LifeBatt Company, everyone else importing Lifepo4 for sale are simply Vendors and as Vendors if what they sell fails it is no big deal, the Vendor blames the manufacturer and moves onto another Manufacturer, this is not possible when you own Half the Company.

IF the LifeBatt Lifepo4 screw up you have someone on this Continent you can boot in the Balls. IF Electricrider or Andy Reich at Falcon or Doug Canfield screw up they will say it isn't their fault and they'll blame the Chinese Manufacturer. Vendors are Bulletproof and will pass the Buck so fast your head will spin, Don Harmon cannot do this, he cannot blame the Manufacturer when he is the Manufacturer.

Figure it out, you want to be Dealing with just a Vendor or do you want to be dealing with a Manufacturer on this Continent (well this Continent providing you are in North America, if you are in Australia you can pretend you are in North America)

Trollinator, I much prefer "Hagar the Unstable" or "Head Lemming"

P.S. think about this for a second, Vendors are telling the Chinese how much $$ they are willing to pay for Lifepo4 and so the Chinese have a BIG incentive to Maximize their profits by selling utter crap at the lowest price and then you pay big bucks to the Vendor for what THEY tell you the battery solution is worth.

LifeBatt is doing it a different way, they are selling Large Format cells to people doing Cars and Aircraft and using part of those profits to make the E-Bike Cells more affordable in 2008. You think Electricrider or EVTECH or Falcon are going to do this for the E-Bike Community?

Oh and while I am here, this whole notion started by Tracy and Richard Papa that Don Harmon is just in it to line his pockets and get rich. What is so bloody wrong with making a profit, is Don supposed to be a Communist or Living on Welfare. IF you don't make a Profit you won't be flogging e-bikes or Lifepo4 next year. Is Matra (Richard Papa) or Tracy Non-Profit?

Ahhh that felt good

 

[mvadventure]

Zane of Aten Energy offers a three year warranty. I don't have the website handy but the batteries I ordered 8/8/07 have finally shipped but I'm not home and won't be for a couple more weeks to check them out.

Assuming $1,150 for a hub motor with controller, SLA batteries and all the assorted stuff you need to hook it up then Zanes batteries WERE less expensive, at least for my 48 volt 20 AH pack. He has what he claims to be the best BMS in the business.

I'll file a detailed report within a couple of days of getting home and should have it posted by the first couple of days in December.

Mike

 

[Joshua Goldberg]

When I last saw the Aten Website for Lifepo4 there wasn't a single photo or graph there that wasn't hijacked from various Chinese websites including Thunder Sky. One photo of Prismatic cells with a bms on top was sitting on my PC since 2003. Any clue why Aten did this if they have their own Lifepo4 supplier?

 

[oatnet]

I don't have a problem being connected to Don Harmon

It isn't a problem, but it calls your objectivity in question, especially when you throw around blanket statements like this:

I like Lifepo4 compared to all the BBQ starters (Li-Po) people buy but so far very few companies have been able to produce a battery that will get more than 300 Cycles

You and Don are the only people I have seen, repeatedly and consistantly, trash-talk chinese LiFe cells. Neither of you has offered one shred of data to back up these claims. One would think that if you had actual data, you would be spraying it around as liberally as the comments.

Until you back up what you are saying, it sure looks like propoganda.
Until you back up your propoganda, I will call you both on it each and every time I see it.
Spreading falsehoods to steer people away from legitimate products and towards your own is bad business and demonstrates a lack of character.

IF Electricrider or Andy Reich at Falcon or Doug Canfield screw up they will say it isn't their fault and they'll blame the Chinese Manufacturer. Vendors are Bulletproof and will pass the Buck so fast your head will spin, Don Harmon cannot do this, he cannot blame the Manufacturer when he is the Manufacturer.

That is BS! For example, I have direct knowledge that Andy supports his product. My first order from Andy was a pair of 36v10ah LiMn packs with 30a BMS; he recommended 15ah packs or above because they used a more robust 50a BMS, but I wanted smaller/lighter. One of the packs arrived with a damaged discharge BMS. I got an entire replacement pack in a few days, no hassle, and the CHINESE MANUFACTURER you just disparaged paid to have it shipped back to them. The BMS on the other pack died in about a month, Andy did not have a replacement available, but gave me a credit on some LiFe cells I was buying from him. Andy's support earned my respect, and my repeat business.

I have had good business transactions with Dave of Electricrider and Doug of TexasElectricbikes.com, but haven't had to return anything. Both have solid support bases that would have evaporated if they did what you claim, and both demonstrated enough character to be worthy of repeat business.

My experience with Don is different. In July/August I purchased LiFe packs from every vendor I could find - except Don. In August, Don started posting here about his new cells. When I presented my business case to him, he took a big wet nasty dump all over me, then brought you (Joshua) onto this forum so you two could tag-team troll me - but I didn't take the bait. In addition, I have seen him repeatedly snipe at the competition and not back it up. Neither of these demonstrate the degree of character you assert.

But really telling - FreddyFlatFoot got a virus report while on this forum, and it listed a page at LiFeButt, and passed the message on. Don's primary response was to insult and defame FreddyFlatFoot and tell him how no such thing could be happening etc - Don was highly defensive even though Freddy never said it was Don's fault. I'd expect Don to be even more defensive when someone trys to return a pack. Maybe I am wrong, but I calls 'em like I sees 'em.

Ahhh that felt good

It's OK, we already knew you get off on trolling, here's a kleenex.

-JD

 

[Joshua Goldberg]

Last 1st, there was no Virus.
The people were using an older version of MS I.E., Don uses I.E. 7 and no one with Version 7 got a Virus warning. When one of the people who said he kept getting the Virus Warning (using Version 5) tried the site using Version 7 the Virus Warning was not there, in both cases he used Norton Anti-Virus.

As for this Lack of documentation, no clue what you refer to. I have been following Lifepo4 for 3 years. Have seen the testing reports on all the major Lifepo4 products (8 of 10 failed). Maybe you are on the wrong e-bike Forums not to be seeing it.

As for Don Harmon and LifeBatt, Yes I am a Distributor for LifeBatt, but I do it Free i.e. no commission, no pay check and Yes it is possible I am a moron but I am ALSO partnered with Andy Reich since last year but I will not go near his Batteries and he is fine with that. I have warned Andy to stop dealing with a couple of Lifepo4 manufacturers and he has dropped them.

I deal with Engineers in China (non-Chinese) who are there to oversee and consult with Lifepo4 production and trying to get the damn compound to stabillize and stop catching on fire. A lot and I mean tons of the compond have been rejected as unsafe and this is making its way into battery packs in China and Taiwan that will show up in North America.

Did I mention I also deal with A123 who last time I checked A123 were not part of LifeBatt---strange eh

So far there are only 3 Lifepo4 companies I would trust, A123, Valence and LifeBatt and ONLY LifeBatt is using pure Phostech compound. The 1st 2 are not pure but am not allowed to explain how that works due to the whole Patent Violation mess the 2 are in.

I had hoped GEB Lifepo4 would have joined the other 3, but they too are having problems getting the compound to stabilize.

As for Dave and Electricrider, well we ignore one another. They have their own agenda and I have mine and we are light years apart. It has nothing to do with what they sell but how they sell it....i.e. using Ebay after saying they wouldn't, stuff like that.

It is nice to see you are willing to play the role of human guinea pig by buying from all these companies but a lot of people lack the cash you have to buy and then discover they've made a mistake, so I guess we differ here because I don't want people jumping in and buying what they cannot afford only to discover their Lifepo4 caught fire after a few hundred cycles.

Unlike some people I am not here to boost my ego or have people like me and I am likely one of thee grumpiest SOBs you'd ever meet, same time I don't like seeing people being royally screwed over by Vendors who are only in the Biz to make money. I have been in this for 15 years so far, most of my customers are physically handicapped, a lot are Veterans and a lot are seniors & not youngins who wanna go 35 mph on a Schwinn or Bunny Hop down the street. When you spend 15 years dealing with people who don't have a lot of cash laying around you either sell them what they don't need and cannot afford or take my approach and sell them what I believe is good value that will do what it is supposed to do.

 

[metalairhead]

1) Thanks to all.

2) I haven't seen anything to change my mind:

Price Eonyx vs. LifeBatt, and factor that into risk:

Eonyx 48V 20ah with charger: $1499 (6 mo. warranty)
http://www.electricrider.com/batteries/eonyx.htm

vs.

LiFeBatt 24V/20 Ah w/ Charger: $ 1,308.00 USD (3 Year Warranty)
x 2 (to create 48V) = $2781
http://www.lifebatt.com/LiFeBATT%20Web_4.html

$2781 minus $1499 equals $982 initial cost savings w/Eonyx

The LiFeBatt chargers are only warrantied for one year. I would assume that the customer would bear the risk of damage to the battery pack if the charger is defective after one year, as all LiFeBatt warranties explicitly state coverage is for materials and workmanship only. Four additional charger purchases at $165 per is an additional $660 if the customer really wants to protect his/her warranty on the battery pack for three years.

So, $982 + $660 = $1642, which is more than the cost of a complete Eonyx replacement.

The ultimate demise of any battery pack will most likely be due to operator or installer error. (oft-used expression: Oh, f**k! I bet THAT's not covered under the warranty!)

3) If it's possible to display pictures, diagrams, etc. of the Eonyx kit without voiding my warranty, I plan to do so. I'm on a list for a December '07 delivery. No deposit was requested, and none was offered. We'll see how this vendor meets this projected DOD.

 

[fechter]

One test is worth a thousand opinions...

 

[Ypedal]

agreed ! 8)

 

[oatnet]

Last 1st, there was no Virus.

1) Whether or not there was a virus, there was a warning message. I got the same virus warning message, and posted it here; there was either a virus or a match to a virus string.
2) Whether or not there was an actual virus, Don clearly trashed FreddyFlatFoot to cover his a$$ rather than work cooperatively to find a solution.

I like Lifepo4 compared to all the BBQ starters (Li-Po) people buy but so far very few companies have been able to produce a battery that will get more than 300 Cycles

You and Don are the only people I have seen, repeatedly and consistantly, trash-talk chinese LiFe cells. Neither of you has offered one shred of data to back up these claims. One would think that if you had actual data, you would be spraying it around as liberally as the comments.

As for this Lack of documentation, no clue what you refer to. I have been following Lifepo4 for 3 years. Have seen the testing reports on all the major Lifepo4 products (8 of 10 failed). Maybe you are on the wrong e-bike Forums not to be seeing it.

Great! Here is your big opportunity demonstrate your assetness, impress us all with your knowledge, and point to these testing reports that detail all of the major LiFePO4 failures. Don was unable to find them to back up his claims, maybe you will do better.

Yes, I spend most of my online ebike time on E:S because it is not a flame-haven like some other sites, and I have not seen these reports on Chinese Life failing. In July/August, I followed every last link to LiFeP04 and "lithium iron phosphate" in google and google groups and did not see these reports like this anywhere. In fact, most of us here have questions about the long term viability of LiFePO4, but nobody has posted these reports. The lack of data is why this "human guinea pig" purchased a broad range of sample packs prior to buying Hundreds of packs for production.

I deal with Engineers in China (non-Chinese) who are there to oversee and consult with Lifepo4 production and trying to get the damn compound to stabillize and stop catching on fire.

Hmm, the inert Iron Phosphate cathode is now flammable. Inferior electronics have puffed (4) of my LiFePO4 cells so far and none of them heated up. Just this week I accidentally overcharged some LiFePO4 cells from Andy to 4.05v (3.74 nominal) and they didn't catch fire or even seem warm. Again, I would love to see data that backs up your assertions, but they don't match up with what I am seeing in the real world or found in my online research - that the electronics suck but the chemistry is competent.

-JD

PS Metalairhead - sorry I helped make your post go sideways, I hope somehow the discussion added some information you could use.

 

[vanilla ice]

Maybe you are on the wrong e-bike Forum..

YOU MEAN THERES MORE THAN ONE??!

Come on guys, the mention of viruses can bring out a lot of emotion but I'm sure nobody meant to offend anybody else.

 

[TylerDurden]

YOU MEAN THERES MORE THAN ONE??!

There's another one in France.

 

[Joshua Goldberg]

I am too close to what is going on with Lifepo4 industry to release any info on the failures. LifeBatt, Valence and A123 are the only 3 I'd go near, maybe PHET too but not really--least not yet.

I know it is frustrating my saying most of these affordable Lifepo4 producers are exporting garbage when I cannot provide details & reports listing the names of the companies and describe the failures themselves but for now it has to come down to do you jump in and hope what I am saying is BS or stick with Ni-CD or even SLA awhile longer.

As for my Bias, I use Ni-CD not Lifepo4 and when it comes time to use Lifepo4 (in April) the packs will be DeWalt A123

Yes I like LifeBatt and Yes I am a Distributor although I have told Don that if anyone else wants to take over from me that is cool.

What I like and liked about LifeBatt from Day One was Don Harmon listens and acts upon what e-bikers ask for even though from the begining Don realized the real money comes from the car and aerospace industry. Don does NOT have to pay his rent from the profit he makes selling one 36V pack to a guy with an e-bike. Don is on OUR side and people are pissing all over him because he warns you about Lifepo4 that are crap and you and everyone else knows he must be saying this to make LifeBatt look better and increase his profits, but what profits are these on a 36V pack when LifeBatt sells thousands of large format cells to power cars and trucks?

At some point you have to start connecting the dots. Don Harmon is saying most of what people are buying is crap, I am saying the same thing but we are not saying this to get you to buy from LifeBatt. We are saying it because we are closer to what is going on and we don't like what we see and felt the need to tell people, you'd prefer we shut up and let people waste their money?

I am actually more connected to DeWalt A123 than to LifeBatt, so I guess if you think what I say is crap then you may as well ignore DeWalt A123 as well.

Oh and b4 I forget, the Leading expert on Lifepo4 in North America is Dr. Mark Lund of Powerstream in Utah. Under connecting the Dots, anyone noticed that Mark has dropped Lifepo4 from his website and has not posted anything about Lifepo4 for 7 months. Powerstram was the 1st to introduce Lifepo4 to North America but now Nothing.

Consider this Question: IF Lifepo4 is as Stable and downright wonderful as some in this Group think it is, don't you think Mark would be right up there preaching that message to the masses, wouldn't he be importing container loads of Chinese Lifepo4 to sell?

So why isn't Mark doing this??

PS I created a Yahoo Group last year for Lifepo4 but this was when I was still hoping this chemistry would be the greatest and safest ever done. Since then as I said only A123, Valence and Lifebatt have been safe and wonderful and I'm shutting down the Yahoo Group. It would be great to have an affordable Lifepo4 that was safe and reliable but beyond the 3 mentioned it hasn't happened.

One final point b4 I make a coffee

You wanted test results showing all the Failures. How about the Test results showing all the Winners. The companies who have been having the Failures are not risking their Biz on independent Labs testing their batteries. At least LifeBatt has test results from BATSO and SANDIA Labs & you think Don Harmon is going to risk his Lifepo4 sales unless he was confident Independent Labs will show his Lifepo4 are going to live up to their claims. B4 you buy from Yesa or Aten or whatever ask to see their Independent Lab results and see what happens.

http://zeva.com.au/tech/LiFePO4.php

 

[TylerDurden]

Consider what the powertool mfrs are comfortable with:

A123
Molicell
Konion
(I haven't heard whatz in Ryobi yet)


It's noteworthy that brave souls are putting up $$ to try the "fresh meat", but I'd rather pay for stuff I can use and leave the testing to the folks who can afford a meltdown.

 

[oatnet]

I know it is frustrating my saying most of these affordable Lifepo4 producers are exporting garbage when I cannot provide details & reports listing the names of the companies and describe the failures themselves.

Wow, that is pretty weak... Earlier in this thread you posted otherwise: "Have seen the testing reports on all the major Lifepo4 products (8 of 10 failed). Maybe you are on the wrong e-bike Forums not to be seeing it." Please point us to these reports on the 'right' ebike forums.

Obviously you haven't signed an NDA or you wouldn't be able to refer to the results in a public forum like you have. It is hard to see how data that makes your competitors look bad would qualify as IP. We don't need company names, we need the testing strategy and results, 8 of 10 failures would be a pretty convincing reason to be concerned.

I try very hard to be open to new data, but if you and Don can't back up your claims with hard data, as far as I am concerned they are fabrications. As a high-priced competitor with a vested interest in seeing low-priced competitors fail, you, Don, and Lifebutt in general have a HUGE credibility gap when defaming their products. You quote reports you can't share, Don says he can provide reports but when pressed says his lab guys are 'too busy' to actually provide them. If it looks like a fish, smells like a fish, sounds like a fish, and tastes like a fish, it probably is a fish - or in this case simply fishy.

I have been wrong before, I will be wrong again, and I could be wrong now. However, I work on evidence and not faith. Here is the evidence I have so far and have been basing my opinions on:

1) I have LiFePO4 packs that I have been testing for MORE than 3 months and showing no sign of significant degradation; I do agree that the electronics (BMS/Charger) suck and have seen them damage cells, but nothing I can attribute to the chemistry.

2) You and Don both mention premature failure of cheap LiFePO4, but are unable to backup these claims with any data (playing connect-the-dots with wild interpretations of events is not data).

3) I was unable to find any other mention on the internet of premature failures of LiFEPO4 chemistry - excluding the early t-sky cells that were not LiFe as advertised. If this was a problem, I would expect someone besides Josh and Don would know.

Don Harmon is saying most of what people are buying is crap, I am saying the same thing but we are not saying this to get you to buy from LifeBatt. We are saying it because we are closer to what is going on and we don't like what we see and felt the need to tell people, you'd prefer we shut up and let people waste their money?

On the contrary, We'd like you to SPEAK UP and share the information you claim to have: if it is true, it would help me to know; it would prove Don's case and overcome all objections over cost; it would give ebiker's a REASON not to buy the cheap stuff.

================================================

What I like and liked about LifeBatt from Day One was Don Harmon listens and acts upon what e-bikers ask for

Funny, my experience with Don was very different. When I told Harmon what THIS e-biker needed from a pack, he took a big, wet, nasty, dump all over me. He didn't listen or try to overcome objections like a real entrepenur would, he took my feedback as criticism and got defensive, starting acting snotty and hostile, so hostile that Fetcher had to delete the content of his post and publicly sanction him.

Instead of a discussion of what I wanted from the hundreds of battery packs I need to buy, Don (and you!) tried to troll it into a discussion of my competency to manufacture ebikes. I have seen a few other examples of this - IMO Don is too busy trying to smack down buyers' objections to actually listen to or overcome them. This is not the behaviour the ebike industry needs to lead it into the mainstream.

-JD

 

[CGameProgrammer]

ElectricRider is trustworthy, although their suppliers may not be. I bought the first version of Eonyx, a 48V 25Ah lithium-polymer battery, from them, and the BMS inexplicably cut off power after 9 Ah were used, even though the voltage (51V resting and 47V under load after 9 Ah) suggested the batteries had plenty of remaining capacity. Anyway I returned the battery to them and got my money back, less shipping of course. By the way, that battery was the first and only shipment from a random Chinese factory that shut its doors right after that shipment, and that had previously shipped broken or incorrect chargers to ElectricRider (which they discovered in testing).

So they do test things and they do stand by them, but they don't seem to do much if any long-term testing.

I think if there were any problems with this new Eonyx, it would be discovered well before six months and you can simply return it and get your money back (or get it repaired) by then, if necessary.

Also it's technically correct to state it's the same chemistry as A123s, because they're both LiFePO4. It's the molecular structure of some components that makes A123s special, but the chemistry is still LiFePO4, and that chemistry does not explode.