Establishing Legal Ebikes in Hawaii

[xyster]

I'm still waiting to see a hub motor ebike video with 20 mph average speed for 1 hour on a round trip with no pedaling using less tha 6 amp hours.

you want that video with 6 ah at what voltage ?

Exactly. I see by the on-board ammeter, no pedaling on level ground my bike consumes 5 amps at 20mph. Since I have approximately 30ah available, I should be able to go 20mph at 5 amp-hours per hour for 6 hours -- 120 miles. And that's with a hubmotor of course.

 

[EbikeMaui]

you want that video with 6 ah at what voltage ?

And define " Round trip "..

30 minutes one way.. and 30 minutes back home for total of 1 hr ?

A contionus trip non edited round trip of 20 miles=10 miles each way on any voltage at 20 mph for the total average round trip speed on 1 charge without changing batteries..

 

[Ypedal]

There is a fundamental question to be asked here...

6 ah at 36v = 216 wh

and

6 ah at 72v = 432 wh

not the same thing.... double the capacity at 72v..

 

[Mathurin]

Dude, you've read the requirements, they're clear: 36-72v, 6ah.

Whatever happened to wh/km or wh/mile...

 

[xyster]

I'm still waiting to see a hub motor ebike video with 20 mph average speed for 1 hour on a round trip with no pedaling using less tha 6 amp hours of battery power from 36 to 72 volts..

Somebody send me a drainbrain and I'll gladly video my bike passing the test, as would Lowell's and any other high-voltage, high-efficiency X5 hubmotor setups here.
I could maintain that speed and drain rate for at least four hours on a charge...

 

[joystix2]

Xyster, I've gotta try it or maybe get someone else to try it on my bike since I weigh too much. I've got the Phoenix, the 48v13ah Nimh pack, the Drainbrain and the Cruise Control feature. Now I just gotta find a Pilot and a flat track....

 

[xyster]

Xyster, I've gotta try it or maybe get someone else to try it on my bike since I weigh too much. I've got the Phoenix, the 48v13ah Nimh pack, the Drainbrain and the Cruise Control feature. Now I just gotta find a Pilot and a flat track....

That's right, I forgot you had a drainbrain AND an x5...lucky dog. I think you're gonna need to scrounge some more voltage to get in under the 20mph @ 6 amps wire.

With my 5304/24":
At 72v-80v 20mph requires 5 amps.
At 36v 20mph requires 10 amps.

So I'm betting yours' will take 7-8 amps to maintain 20mph, which of course means 7-8 amp hours to go 20mph for one hour.

Didn't you also have a couple 36 volt NiMH packs?

 

[joystix2]

Yup, Yup. Should I put those in series and run the Phoenix at 72v? Would I have to upgrade the FETS in the Xlyte controller? I don't want to blow the controller at 72v.

 

[xyster]

Yup, Yup. Should I put those in series and run the Phoenix at 72v?

You could first check to see what your drain rate is while cruising at 20mph at 48 volts before deciding if you'd need to go 72v. But no matter the number, for going the same speed over the same terrain, higher voltage means proportionately lower amps, and so better range.

If your two 36v packs are 10 ah, you'll get better range at 72 volts 10ah (720 watt-hours of capacity) compared to 48v 13ah (624 watt-hours of capacity) so long as you go the same speed at 72v you would at 48v. And there'd be 50% more power on tap when you want it.

Would I have to upgrade the FETS in the Xlyte controller? I don't want to blow the controller at 72v.

Yes, that wouldn't be good! Is your controller one of the 36v-72v models? If so, there should be no problem running it stock at 72v. Can you link to the one you bought? It might be the same as mine:
http://www.poweridestore.com/Hub-Motor-Acces/Series-500-Controllers/35A36V-72V-X-5-Motor-Controller
then we'd know for sure.

 

[EbikeMaui]

I'm still waiting to see a hub motor ebike video with 20 mph average speed for 1 hour on a round trip with no pedaling using less tha 6 amp hours of battery power from 36 to 72 volts..

Somebody send me a drainbrain and I'll gladly video my bike passing the test, as would Lowell's and any other high-voltage, high-efficiency X5 hubmotor setups here.
I could maintain that speed and drain rate for at least four hours on a charge...

Could, Would and "DOES in a video" are 3 different things.Like I said Average 20 MPH at any Voltage between 36 and 72 volts using less than 6 Amp hours.On most systems watt hours go up with speed above 20 mph and voltage adds extra speed.. unleess you use a higher voltage motor but then your top speed would suck.Get your best efficiency at 20 mph and you tell me voltage and amp hours you use.
At anything over 36 volts I just avrage a faster speed using the same amp hours per trip.

 

[xyster]

watt hours go up with speed above 20 mph and voltage adds extra speed..

Which is why, to go the same speed, you back off on the throttle.

 

[EbikeMaui]

watt hours go up with speed above 20 mph and voltage adds extra speed..

Which is why, to go the same speed, you back off on the throttle.

let's see the 1 hour video... at 20 mph.

 

[xyster]

let's see the 1 hour video... at 20 mph.

Don't need to. I can post a brief vid of 5-amp drain rate to sustain 20mph, on level pavement without pedaling. I've got a 33ah, 2,500 watt-hour battery pack, as you obviously know it'll provide 5 amps for a lot longer than an hour. Do the math.

I'd tell you you really should brush up on EV basics, Randy, but you seem to enjoy acting ignorant in order to start arguments. I've read many threads at the PA forum where other members tired of you trying to bait people into jumping through your stupid hoops. So now you're importing your act. One of your more humorous posts was even immortalized here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=409

 

[EbikeMaui]

let's see the 1 hour video... at 20 mph.

Don't need to. I can post a brief vid of 5-amp drain rate to sustain 20mph, on level pavement without pedaling. I've got a 33ah, 2,500 watt-hour battery pack, as you obviously know it'll provide 5 amps for a lot longer than an hour. Do the math.

I'd tell you you really should brush up on EV basics, Randy, but you seem to enjoy acting ignorant in order to start arguments. I've read many threads at the PA forum where other members tired of you trying to bait people into jumping through your stupid hoops. So now you're importing your act. One of your more humorous posts was even immortalized here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=409

You are the one saying going 20 mph for 1 hour on 6 amp hours is no big deal yet you have no video to prove you can even go 20 miles. It looks like another ebiker is just guessing at specs and expecting anyone here to believe you.Show us.your 1 hour video going 20 miles.Where is the bait? First go 20 miles on a round trip with no pedaling (using 6 ah out of 10 ah batteries) at 20 mph and YOU can do the math. while pushing your bike home.

 

[Mathurin]

Let's see, 36v * 6ah = 216wh

But wait! Something seems to be amiss:

Barely realistic best case scenario: 275wh, 127% overall eff. required

Even if it's made absurdly optimistic: 227wh, still 105% overall eff. required

 

[Ypedal]

Randy..

Something that i've mentioned a few times here that you have not responded to...

You use Lithium batteries, that's great.. this is basic battery knowledge but i'd like you to confirm you understand the principle of Series/Paralell Volts/AH etc...

I've been along on the V forum.. the PA gruop Joshua's E-motor group.. here.. and i've followed your repeated claims.. seen your video about 10 times.. and know every detail that you have shared...

In your efficient bike... you can either use 12 ah at 36v.... or 6ah at 72v.. you are using the same amount of energy in both cases.... you DO understand this right ?

 

[Ypedal]

Oh.. and about the video..

Yes.. you will get your video, and that's a promise ! ( once the snow melts and my batteries get re-mounted to the bike!! )

My bike will be carying 72v 8ah of nimh.. and it will travel 20 miles using 6ah of power.. I have done this trip.. any old members of the V foum on here may recall my trip details.. It was NOT a round trip however.. it was 1hr 10 minutes one way..

recharge..

and 55 minutes the other.. both trips used the same 6 ah.. only difference is i went faster on the way home as it was getting late. and i knew i would make it...

Longest trip i've done yet. 8)

 

[fechter]

What I want to know is the miles/Whr @ 20mph. (maybe Whr/mile would be better). Anyway, this would be a measure of overall efficiency, kinda like the gas mileage number for a car.

Hills and wind would need to be compensated for. Doing a round trip over a given course should average things out as much as possible.

 

[xyster]

Let's see, 36v * 6ah = 216wh

But wait! Something seems to be amiss:

Barely realistic best case scenario: 275wh, 127% overall eff. required

There's been a suspicious drainage of brain power from this thread. The specified voltage was 36 to 72v. I use 80 volts normally, but my ammeter shows about the same 5 amps to go 20mph at 72v.

72v X 6ah = 432wh
As the pic below shows, it takes 310 watts to the pavement to sustain 20mph. So efficiency only needs to be 71% (310/432). So even at that low efficiency it takes 432 watt-hours of electricity to travel 20 miles in one on hour, on level pavement, no pedaling. I have a 2,500 watt hour battery. 20 miles is a very typical day's ride. So I don't run the battery down past 50% unless I need to, I recharge after three of these rides.

First go 20 miles on a round trip with no pedaling (using 6 ah out of 10 ah batteries) at 20 mph and YOU can do the math. while pushing your bike home.

I don't have fricken 10 ah batteries, I have 33ah batteries. And what does that matter anyway what kind of battery 6ah is pulled out of? I've done the math and ridden 20 miles and it doesn't take posting some huge one-hour video to prove it, just a vid of drainrate @ speed proves it. My cam only has 7 minutes of memory for video anyway...

There's just no arguing with inanity....
but for some stupid reason I still try.

http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm

 

[Lowell]

I'm still waiting to see a hub motor ebike video with 20 mph average speed for 1 hour on a round trip with no pedaling using less tha 6 amp hours of battery power from 36 to 72 volts..

Somebody send me a drainbrain and I'll gladly video my bike passing the test, as would Lowell's and any other high-voltage, high-efficiency X5 hubmotor setups here.
I could maintain that speed and drain rate for at least four hours on a charge...

I can't ride that slow :lol:
I prefer 20 miles in 35 minutes which uses 11-1200 Wh.

20mph cruising is in the 5 amp range for me (84v) so it would be possible, but I'm not likely to waste my time trying it.

 

[EbikeMaui]

At 36 volts using less than 80% discharge from a 10 ah lpolymer batery at 6 amp hours = 216 watt hours= 10.8 watt hours per mile on most of my average 20 mile trips in most any conditions including hills and strong winds on a round trip with NO pedaling on one single charge nonstop.
At 72 volts using the same watt hours the 20 mile round trip would be slightly slower due to the controller having to hold power back without the fets being run in the more efficient full on mode.To run at 25 mph at a average speed or better for 20 miles on 72 volts it takes 6 amp hours on my choice of speeds up to 47 mph.= 432 watthours.To average above 28 mph is usually too fast for comfort or any pedaling and I advoid it most of the time.
I used this caculator with my bike specs and it comes out prety close to my real world tests.
Most will come up with some kind of excuse when I ask to see a 20 mile round trip non stop video AVERAGING 20 mph without any pedaling on 1 charge.. So far NO ONE has produced proof this can be done with there ebike using any batteries. A 1 hour video showing the full pontentail of 1 ebike pack of 36 volts of 10ah would prove someone can do this.Who Will Just DO this to prove there TRUE SPECS? for the world to see, or at least come clean on there statements.A road test of a few miles don't tell squat.Let that motor heat up then see what happens.Real tests are for real products.
http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm

 

[Ypedal]

80 % of 10 ah = 8 AH .... not 6

Biggest problem right now is finding someone to lend me a digital cam-corder and finding a way to mount it on the bike..... the bike ...i have already..

 

[Mathurin]

[...]I ask to see a 20 mile round trip non stop video AVERAGING 20 mph without any pedaling on 1 charge.. So far NO ONE has produced proof this can be done with there ebike using any batteries. A 1 hour video showing the full pontentail of 1 ebike pack of 36 volts of 10ah would prove someone can do this.Who Will Just DO this to prove there TRUE SPECS? for the world to see, or at least come clean on there statements.[...]

Squeaky wheel gets the grease...
How about if you put your money where your mouth is?

If your bike actually can go 20miles in an hour using less then 6a at 36v, that is 216wh, then you should be able to demonstrate this fairly easily.


Just film yourself going to and from specific places that are exactly 10 miles away using a given route, in such a way as to be able to confirm the distance using Google pedometer. Use the same route going to and from the said places so the results don't get ruined by wind.

Before setting off, show that the chain has been removed or derailed in such a way to obviously prohibit pedaling, and show the power meter reset to 0.

Get on the bike and ride the planned route so as to travel the 20 miles within an hour, then show us the meter again.


I don't believe it'll even read <300wh

 

[EbikeMaui]

80 % of 10 ah = 8 AH .... not 6

"At 36 volts using less than 80% discharge from a 10 ah lpolymer batery at 6 amp hours" is NOT 8
I you realy want to prove your point you can make a way to do it.
Claims are not to be believed in the ev circles unless there is some kind of evidence.

 

[EbikeMaui]

[...]I ask to see a 20 mile round trip non stop video AVERAGING 20 mph without any pedaling on 1 charge.. So far NO ONE has produced proof this can be done with there ebike using any batteries. A 1 hour video showing the full pontentail of 1 ebike pack of 36 volts of 10ah would prove someone can do this.Who Will Just DO this to prove there TRUE SPECS? for the world to see, or at least come clean on there statements.[...]

Squeaky wheel gets the grease...
How about if you put your money where your mouth is?

If your bike actually can go 20miles in an hour using less then 6a at 36v, that is 216wh, then you should be able to demonstrate this fairly easily.


Just film yourself going to and from specific places that are exactly 10 miles away using a given route, in such a way as to be able to confirm the distance using Google pedometer. Use the same route going to and from the said places so the results don't get ruined by wind.

Before setting off, show that the chain has been removed or derailed in such a way to obviously prohibit pedaling, and show the power meter reset to 0.

Get on the bike and ride the planned route so as to travel the 20 miles within an hour, then show us the meter again.


I don't believe it'll even read <300wh

Hire is the route for my 20 mile videos.So far no one even has a 20 mile video to match.If they did just the video would tell the story for full 20 mile unedited trips..
http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=788388
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ecyclemaui