[EU]Looking for a reliable conversion kit

[Akologi]

I think what you want is an 'e-Moped'. It sounds like the right class of vehicle for your requirements, especially since you want to use it to support your livelihood. Registration and insurance seem to be less than $250 annually in Austria, and the drivers license requirements can't be too difficult to pass. This seems the better option to me, compared to the alternative of riding uninsured every day and for several thousand km per year.
Edit: found this article (in German) that explains the situation in Austria.

I wish that'd work, but my employer only allows the use of either Bicycles or as Ebike classified vehicles only, no E-mopeds and the sorts. 25km/h max.

 

[E-HP]

For work as food delivery courier. Ill usually drive up to 90-100km per workday, during every weather condition mostly its on the streets, but there are some steep hills in the city aswell(up to 20°) also sometimes offroad.

Do you need a rack; do you use a backpack for deliveries?
Can you post a Google maps link to the steep street?
Do you need your lowest gear to climb it?

I watched a video yesterday that talked about the huge inventory of ebikes and ebike parts that companies are carrying because the post-pandemic demand wasn't what they projected. Tons of Bosch motors in warehouses for example. I rode my neighbor's Brose motored ebike a few weeks ago, rated 250W, but peaks at 800W, with 90nM, and torque sensing pedal assist. My bike has twenty times the power, but I was thoroughly impressed by a 250W bike. He tried all of the ebikes at the shop he when he was make a decision and the Brose was the only one that had the instant response his bike had. He's had it for a few years, and last week he bought another one, because the prices are going through the floor. I saw an ad the other day where the ebike company was throwing in an extra battery as a buying incentive. I love DIY, but it's a buyer's market out there right now.

 

[Akologi]

Do you need a rack; do you use a backpack for deliveries?
Can you post a Google maps link to the steep street?
Do you need your lowest gear to climb it?

I watched a video yesterday that talked about the huge inventory of ebikes and ebike parts that companies are carrying because the post-pandemic demand wasn't what they projected. Tons of Bosch motors in warehouses for example. I rode my neighbor's Brose motored ebike a few weeks ago, rated 250W, but peaks at 800W, with 90nM, and torque sensing pedal assist. My bike has twenty times the power, but I was thoroughly impressed by a 250W bike. He tried all of the ebikes at the shop he when he was make a decision and the Brose was the only one that had the instant response his bike had. He's had it for a few years, and last week he bought another one, because the prices are going through the floor. I saw an ad the other day where the ebike company was throwing in an extra battery as a buying incentive. I love DIY, but it's a buyer's market out there right now.

The issue is, I want an Ebike with a thumbthrottle, which is illegal in my country, so most ebikes from the more serious sellers/resellers etc usually dont have one and if so its limited to 6 km/h. And I have no idea how to modify it or if that even is possible to modify it or to add one to an ebike. If so I'd actually consider just buying a good one. Allthough the benefit of learning how to assemble and disassemble an ebike would be definatly something i'd love to do.

 

[E-HP]

The issue is, I want an Ebike with a thumbthrottle, which is illegal in my country, so most ebikes from the more serious sellers/resellers etc usually dont have one and if so its limited to 6 km/h. And I have no idea how to modify it or if that even is possible to modify it or to add one to an ebike. If so I'd actually consider just buying a good one. Allthough the benefit of learnign how to assemble and disassemble an ebike would be definatly sometihng i'd love to do.

Ok, the questions assume you're building.

Also, what is your height?

 

[Akologi]

Ok, the questions assume you're building.

Also, what is your height?

Around 182cm do you mean regarding frame/tires?

also i just had the idea why don't i just use 2 250 Watt motors(1 front and 1 rear for extra power when climbing steep hills) would that be a good idea or a dumb idea?

Also regarding steep hills, I did some research and in my city(vienna, there are some streets that are like 25° steep. due to the "kahlenberg" mountain nearby. Which i actually had to cycle on already, and its no fun i got to a point where i just walked instead of cycling lol.

But so far this thread has already been pretty helpful, So far I know the best thing for me would be a Geared Rear motor 250 watts with regen drive(which would also come in handy not only because of braking, but also because there are steep areas so i gain some of the energy back i put in going uphill) I dont know if there is something like that out there, but i have seen there are ways to modify a geared free wheeling rear motor to make it regen. are there any good websites/webshops to buy bikegear like that?

 

[E-HP]

Around 182cm do you mean regarding frame/tires?

also i just had the idea why don't i just use 2 250 Watt motors(1 front and 1 rear for extra power when climbing steep hills) would that be a good idea or a dumb idea?

Also regarding steep hills, I did some research and in my city(vienna, there are some streets that are like 25° steep. due to the "kahlenberg" mountain nearby. Which i actually had to cycle on already, and its no fun i got to a point where i just walked instead of cycling lol.

But so far this thread has already been pretty helpful, So far I know the best thing for me would be a Geared Rear motor 250 watts with regen drive(which would also come in handy not only because of braking, but also because there are steep areas so i gain some of the energy back i put in going uphill) I dont know if there is something like that out there, but i have seen there are ways to modify a geared free wheeling rear motor to make it regen. are there any good websites/webshops to buy bikegear like that?

Around 182cm do you mean regarding frame/tires?
Just thinking about frame size/space for the battery.

Here's info on converting a geared hub for regen. Grin prices reflect it's quality. I usually order carefully to minimize my shipping, but there's always that one part I forgot to order. There's a lot of info on the site, plus the simulation tools are really accurate.

Lock Clutch Mod

Weld Clutch for Regenerative Braking Capability in Geared Hub Motor and Assemble with Loctite 648.CURRENTLY ON HOLD, moving to CNC machined fixed planet carriers, no more welding.

ebikes.ca

Here's a bike race up a 20 degree hill (~36%). I hope they give you a big tip when you pedal up 25 degrees (47%).

I don't know much about those smaller geared hub motors, but others can chime in on which are good, and how they handle hills.

 

[Akologi]

Around 182cm do you mean regarding frame/tires?
Just thinking about frame size/space for the battery.

Here's info on converting a geared hub for regen. Grin prices reflect it's quality. I usually order carefully to minimize my shipping, but there's always that one part I forgot to order. There's a lot of info on the site, plus the simulation tools are really accurate.

Lock Clutch Mod

Weld Clutch for Regenerative Braking Capability in Geared Hub Motor and Assemble with Loctite 648.CURRENTLY ON HOLD, moving to CNC machined fixed planet carriers, no more welding.

ebikes.ca

Here's a bike race up a 20 degree hill (~36%). I hope they give you a big tip when you pedal up 25 degrees (47%).

I don't know much about those smaller geared hub motors, but others can chime in on which are good, and how they handle hills.

So does this mod work with every Geared rear hub motor? I wonder if I could just get 2 different motors on my bike 1 for each wheel. One Direct drive, for regen brake and Long distance/uninterrupted path cycling and one Geared for stop and go(within city) and uphill cycling. And i can just switch between them when cycling.

 

[Chalo]

also i just had the idea why don't i just use 2 250 Watt motors(1 front and 1 rear for extra power when climbing steep hills) would that be a good idea or a dumb idea?

Also regarding steep hills, I did some research and in my city(vienna, there are some streets that are like 25° steep.

Two 250W motors used together will multiply torque and hill climbing by two, which would be better in your case than a 500W motor that has only a little more torque plus higher RPM.

I have a two motor bike with 48V x 22A in the front wheel and 48V x 30A in the rear wheel. It's a lot more fun than those numbers would suggest.

 

[Az.]

Akologi wants a legal bike. Two 250W motors would be illegal and unnecessary complication.

You also don't want regenerative braking motor. It simply doesn't work on bikes.

Just to clarify - you can have very powerful and legal bike to climb all hills. Most people who start adventure with e-bikes think motor power is legally limited to 250W. It is not. In fact motors have no power. Power is delivered by controller and battery.
In Europe legal limit 250W is set on motor rated power. "Continuous rated power as specified by manufacturer" to be precise. There is NO LEGAL LIMIT set on power provided by controller. In fact all legal Bosch/Shimano/Brose ready made bikes in shops use much more power than 250W. So it is legal to take 250W motor and pump all the power you want... within reason of course, because if you deliver 2kW power to 0.25kW rated motor then most likely you will burn it.

The trick is to buy 250W motor which would withstand power you need without overheating and trick is to buy battery and controller able to deliver this power.

For example one of my motors (TSDZ8) on it's minimal setting has 16A * 54V = 864W if input power. I can set controller up to 24A which would give 24A * 54V = 1296W, but I don't need that. Even on minimal settings motor is overpowered for my needs and flies up every hill.

Most people buy highly rated motors because of ignorance. 500W rated motor set to 500W is less powerful than mine and it is illegal. What is the point of buying it?

 

[rudivb]

You also don't want regenerative braking motor. It simply doesn't work on bikes.

It was me who suggested regen braking, I don't have any personal experience so others should indeed chime in here. But I thought from what I heard/read it would work well to supplement braking and some say they rely almost solely on regen braking. Which would result in less brake wear, because as a delivery driver you go through a shitload of brake pads which is cost and time consuming. Yes regen wouldn't give back much energy, couple % tops? But the benefits on braking alone would be worthed.

 

[Az.]

It was me who suggested regen braking, I don't have any personal experience so others should indeed chime in here. But I thought from what I heard/read it would work well to supplement braking and some say they rely almost solely on regen braking. Which would result in less brake wear, because as a delivery driver you go through a shitload of brake pads which is cost and time consuming. Yes regen wouldn't give back much energy, couple % tops? But the benefits on braking alone would be worthed.

In theory it sounds like a good idea, but in practice it has been tried by many companies and abandoned as not worth the effort. Also not worth for additional braking power. Good hydraulic disc brakes should have more than enough stopping power and disc pads are cheap. Replacement takes minutes. It is just not worth it

 

[Az.]

Is it really being enforced?

I don't know... you tell us. I heard French law is draconian in this case. 30k euro fine and one year in prison. Sounds crazy.

France bans illegal eMTB tuning with fines up to € 30,000

French legislation now bans the practice of eMTB tuning. If an individual or retailer are caught modifying an ebike to derestrict its maximum speed, the offence is now punishable by up to one-year imprisonment (two year for retailers) and up to a €30,000 fine. France is leading the fight against...

ebike-mtb.com

 

[rudivb]

I don't know... you tell us. I heard French law is draconian in this case. 30k euro fine and one year in prison. Sounds crazy.

France bans illegal eMTB tuning with fines up to € 30,000

French legislation now bans the practice of eMTB tuning. If an individual or retailer are caught modifying an ebike to derestrict its maximum speed, the offence is now punishable by up to one-year imprisonment (two year for retailers) and up to a €30,000 fine. France is leading the fight against...

ebike-mtb.com

Nah not where I am, done 40000km of pretty damn fast riding on my BBSHD. Few warnings for red lights and when my bike was parked a cop asked "is that electric?" other than that, nothing. Maybe in the centre of Paris? I don't know.

In theory it sounds like a good idea, but in practice it has been tried by many companies and abandoned as not worth the effort. Also not worth for additional braking power. Good hydraulic disc brakes should have more than enough stopping power and disc pads are cheap. Replacement takes minutes. It is just not worth it

Yeah like I said, the only reason is brake wear, when you are doing high mileage deliveries, you're replacing brake pads every couple of weeks, which gets tiring real quick, but maybe you are right and it's not worthed.

Speaking about brakes to OP, get the best/largest brakes with largest rotors you can afford, not only can it save your life, but it will also contribute to lower overall wear of the brakes.

 

[Az.]

Yeah like I said, the only reason is brake wear, when you are doing high mileage deliveries, you're replacing brake pads every couple of weeks, which gets tiring real quick, but maybe you are right and it's not worthed.

There is one more thing I heard of (didn't try myself) - lack of fun. People say it is like driving with hand brake on. No fun

 

[stancecoke]

I recommend a big direct drive with a controller that can deliver 70-90 amps of motor current, to climb steep (short) hills.
A thumb throttle is legal in Europe, as long as you are pseudopedaling in parallel.
One of the famous steep roads in Vienna seem to be the Eisernenhandgasse. A standard Nine Continent RH212 would get pretty hot, but it would be able to climb it with 100W from the rider:

Trip Simulator - Tools

ebikes.ca

 

[offGridDownUnder]

Grin rates their All-Axle hub motor at 250W, and they will laser engrave that on the motor side plates to ease interactions with authorities. The All-Axle can handle 1000w, and Grin has numbers that show it qualifies as a 250W continuous motor.

Their Cycle Analyst permits loading 3 sets of parameters and switching between them while riding - power levels, maximum speed up to which power is provided, etc.

In fact, I can set the boost from cadence to be well above what my legs can provide, and thus my trike is moving faster than I am pedaling - so no load on me. In this way, I am legal as I am pedaling, the speed provided by the motor tops out at 25km/hr. My throttle-input-limit is set to 6km/hr - legal in most States in Australia, and it uses as much power as needed to get me started. Then it backs off and speed settles to the limit, but by then I am pedaling and I don't need to strain at all if I don't want.

I set the power high, and over time I will lower it to pick up a larger and larger share of the load to get my legs in shape. And I'll dial it back up when I am tired, or meet a steep hill.

 

[Akologi]

Man thank you everyone, this community is so helpful already thanks to everyone

 

[biphaeboh]

In theory it sounds like a good idea, but in practice it has been tried by many companies and abandoned as not worth the effort. Also not worth for additional braking power. Good hydraulic disc brakes should have more than enough stopping power and disc pads are cheap. Replacement takes minutes. It is just not worth it

Re-gen works fine. I had a GMAC and got about 5% battery back. City riding including some steep short hills.
Grin have lots of info on regen, including videos.

Regen - Learn

Use the power of your motor to brake and capture the energy to put back into your battery pack. An in-depth look at regenerative braking and how to activate it on your e-bike.

ebikes.ca

 

[Akologi]

Re-gen works fine. I had a GMAC and got about 5% battery back. City riding including some steep short hills.
Grin have lots of info on regen, including videos.

Regen - Learn

Use the power of your motor to brake and capture the energy to put back into your battery pack. An in-depth look at regenerative braking and how to activate it on your e-bike.

ebikes.ca

The energy capture would be just a great addition allthough its minor, its more about using the regen as brake to prevent wear on the actual brakes, reducing maintenance need. Allthough someone gave reasons why its not that usefull, i'd be willing to try it, just because why not lol

 

[E-HP]

5% is the difference between going on a 21 mile ride, or going ona 20 mile ride then pushing your bike home for the last mile, so depending on the circumstances, 5% may not feel minor. I never changed the pads on my BB7 calipers the whole time I had them with regen. Now without regen and hydraulic calipers, I’m changing them every other month. Regen saved me a lot of money.

 

[Az.]

Man thank you everyone, this community is so helpful already thanks to everyone

You are most welcome. It is so nice to see a delivery rider who is concerned about legality and quality of his build. To be honest with you, where I live, delivery riders are using horribly assembled e-bikes (batteries strapped to downtube with duct tape, no chain etc.) ant way they ride is horrible. I ride mostly for fun, but if I was building a bike for deliveries it would be:

Hybrid bike with mudguards, comfortable saddle and suspension seatpost.
Rear hub geared 250W motor. 48V 750W KT controller (with a possibility to upgrade to 1KW later if needed). 2*25Ah 48V Samsung (or other branded cells) battery - one working, one charging.
Throttle? Hmm... maybe... Stancecoke is right - throttles are legal while you pedal. I am told KT controllers have this functionality, but police is not educated well and when they see throttle they confiscate bike. Heard of many cases when they did and had to apologize later.
I would also probably have a spare bike just in case. Your budget is healthy enough to buy all of it.

 

[Akologi]

You are most welcome. It is so nice to see a delivery rider who is concerned about legality and quality of his build. To be honest with you, where I live, delivery riders are using horribly assembled e-bikes (batteries strapped to downtube with duct tape, no chain etc.) ant way they ride is horrible. I ride mostly for fun, but if I was building a bike for deliveries it would be:

Hybrid bike with mudguards, comfortable saddle and suspension seatpost.
Rear hub geared 250W motor. 48V 750W KT controller (with a possibility to upgrade to 1KW later if needed). 2*25Ah 48V Samsung (or other branded cells) battery - one working, one charging.
Throttle? Hmm... maybe... Stancecoke is right - throttles are legal while you pedal. I am told KT controllers have this functionality, but police is not educated well and when they see throttle they confiscate bike. Heard of many cases when they did and had to apologize later.
I would also probably have a spare bike just in case. Your budget is healthy enough to buy all of it.

That sounds good. And yeah its the same in my country, most delivery guys are just traffic hazards, i actually work fulltime(40hours, sometimes even more) because its actually not that lower paid as to what i would usually earn in the office in hr or some soulless position. I get to be outside, no boss that micromanages me... Ofc theres also downsides but just trying to give my best. And it helps me more getting into the biking community(i loved bicycling before that already). Soo yeah, i think its dumb that no pedaling throttles on ebikes are illegal... I mean i am working 40 hours a week, i just need to have a minor leg injury or something and i cant work anymore. Hence why i am ok with that kind of illegal mod, im not interested in driving faster i think the laws there really are just entirely dumb and unfair towards full time couriers.

 

[rudivb]

5% is the difference between going on a 21 mile ride, or going ona 20 mile ride then pushing your bike home for the last mile, so depending on the circumstances, 5% may not feel minor. I never changed the pads on my BB7 calipers the whole time I had them with regen. Now without regen and hydraulic calipers, I’m changing them every other month. Regen saved me a lot of money.

I've been thinking about the idea, if they could develop a hub solely designed for regen braking?
Like I ride a BBSHD middrive and it's also mostly deliveries in the city, I ride pretty agressive, so it's eating up brake pads.

I'm not sure if it would make any sense and I'm sure I'm missing many points here, but if they could design something like that I would buy it in an instant.

 

[Az.]

That sounds good. And yeah its the same in my country, most delivery guys are just traffic hazards, i actually work fulltime(40hours, sometimes even more) because its actually not that lower paid as to what i would usually earn in the office in hr or some soulless position. I get to be outside, no boss that micromanages me... Ofc theres also downsides but just trying to give my best. And it helps me more getting into the biking community(i loved bicycling before that already). Soo yeah, i think its dumb that no pedaling throttles on ebikes are illegal... I mean i am working 40 hours a week, i just need to have a minor leg injury or something and i cant work anymore. Hence why i am ok with that kind of illegal mod, im not interested in driving faster i think the laws there really are just entirely dumb and unfair towards full time couriers.

Sounds really nice. Maybe you will find few minutes one day to write about it. I am sure many here would love to read about delivery industry.

Explore subject of legal throttles in your country. You can be positively surprised.
Here are commercially sold bikes with full throttle in UK

Full Throttle Electric Bikes Archives

Upgrade your new Wisper electric bike with throttle. Get your wisper e-bike with throttle by choosing the 'full-throttle' option. Compatible e-bikes only

wisperbikes.com

You might also find interesting to read about speed pedelecs.

 

[Akologi]

Sounds really nice. Maybe you will find few minutes one day to write about it. I am sure many here would love to read about delivery industry.

Explore subject of legal throttles in your country. You can be positively surprised.
Here are commercially sold bikes with full throttle in UK

Full Throttle Electric Bikes Archives

Upgrade your new Wisper electric bike with throttle. Get your wisper e-bike with throttle by choosing the 'full-throttle' option. Compatible e-bikes only

wisperbikes.com

You might also find interesting to read about speed pedelecs.

I know s-pedelecs, but my company only permits couriers to drive with ebikes or bicycles. As i mentioned in a comment earlier, right now i drive with an e-Moped limited to 25 km/h(legally counting as ebike so you can drive on cyclist lanes etc... lol). Im certain its not entirely legal because of its 750watt motor, but its a greyzone here and alot of couriers drive with it without getting into troubles with the police. The downside is: the maintenance cost is higher, the battery brands are no name chinese, its power hungry, and well i'd prefer a bicycle/ebike than that to be honest, especially if i can make a custom fit bike that's reliable, comfortable, well suspended and as suitable as that e-moped, maybe even more so. Its kinda ridiculous ebikes with throttles = EVIL. Things that usually were only allowed to drive on streets, but modified to drive only 25 km/h, without any pedals or something = GOOD.