Fat bike or mtn bike for Winter commute (Bafang BBS02)

[webmonkey8]

What do you guys recommend for Winter commuting? A Fatbike with the Bafang BBS02 mid drive motor? Or a mountain bike with front suspension fork with the same motor? I'd imagine the second option would be cheaper, correct?

My 3 option details:
- The Biktrix Juggernaut (http://www.biktrix.com/juggernaut.html)
- A regular fat bike for around $1000 and strapping the Bafang BBS02
- Mountain bike with front suspension fork and winter studded tires with the Bafang BBS02

We get snow in my area during the Winter months. However, I'm not going to be going on any singletrack, etc. My commute to/from work consists of mainly bike trails that are plowed (most of the time) in the Winter time, as well as service roads.

Any opinions? Pros and Cons?
Please advise.

 

[KINNINVIEKID]

Either would do the job BUT if you have any breakdowns etc you will find the MTB a lot easier to pedal unpowered.

 

[macribs]

Just to clear up something of a myth of the fat bike. Even with 5" tires front and back you will not float on snow. Fat bike will work fine on snowmobile tracks, in prepped slopes like ski resorts or a cross country skiing trail, but if you try going off-road in any kind of powder it will not work. Your wheels will sink like on a regular bike. The same goes for heavy snowfall in those early mornings, if the snow is not removed from the road you will not be floating on top of the snow even with a fat bike.

So as long as you are aware of that you choice should be about what type of bike you like the best. In general most fat bikes comes without suspension, or if suspension just a fat suspension fork. More expensive ones can also have rear suspensions. The fat tires will cushion the bumps for normal biking speed - but going e-bike you are likely to ride faster then you would pedaling. And you might find that those fat tires are not enough suspension.

If you know how to pace yourself and are not tempted to ride fast then I see no reason why not convert a fatbike or even get one ready made. But if you know that you are likely using whatever power you got on tap maybe consider mtb. A mountain bike with studded tires will work wonders in the winter time.

 

[wesnewell]

A fat tire will get better traction and grip the road better under all conditions assuming the same type tread on the tires.

 

[macribs]

A fat tire will get better traction and grip the road better under all conditions assuming the same type tread on the tires.

In winter condition with snow and ice a wider footprint is not always what you are aiming for if you are running studded tires.
Fat bike is a trend, it look cool but really it does not make as much sense as people tend to think. In any winter conditions a studded mtb will outperform any fat bike. It is not about footprint as much as it is about those studs digging into the ice keeping traction.

Look at the slim tire on this race car, they are studded for winter racing. The studs are what gives you grip and traction.

In a situation like this not even a fat bike will help you.

This is typical winter conditions, heavy snow fall. Snow plough running late. Again studded MTB wins.

Here you might be able to ride a fat bike, but most likely the tires will carve the track from the snowmobile and you will sink in.

And even in these conditions a studded mtb would out perform the fat bike:

Here for the last and final picks is a good example as to what conditions fat bikes works well. Both these pics are showing well prepped tracks.
Hard packed snow, your standard mtb will sink your fatbike will not.

 

[macribs]

Just to be clear, I am not hating on fat bikes. I just wish to help people know what to expect from them. IMHO fat bikes makes more sense in summer time riding on a sandy beach.

Prepping too much for the one or two days a year where the weather is really bad is not really the best way to go about it. It is like those ICE freaks claiming a Tesla is not a proper car because you can not drive the Tesla for 15 hours straight without charging. I mean who rides 15 hours straight without a bathroom brake and some coffee?

So an everyday mtb with studded winter tires will be all that is needed for everyday commute to work. should you wake up to 3 feet of snow one morning, call in sick, or call a cab. Even if you got a fat bike you have no business riding that day.

 

[MadRhino]

I suppose winter commute means it will be riding on the street most of the time. 2.5 to 3.0 tires work best, studded if you often have packed snow or ice where you live, just plain mud thread if it is mostly salted slush or wet. Suspension is a must if you ride fast and/or aggressively.

Then, a good fs frame alone is more expansive than most complete fat bikes. Building cheap, you'd better go with a hard tail frame and ride slower.

 

[macribs]

Yes or score a great full suspension MTB or even Down hill bike now as the season is soon changing. I am sure there will be great deals in weeks to come, on cragslist and anywhere else you can pick up second hand bikes. Or do a wallmart build with custom swing arm like the illegal in 50 states bike.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Well, Macribs, it's clear you've never rode a Fatbike on snow. The whole point of the fatbike is to be able to ride on top of deep snow. They do it very well, as well as mud, sand, and any other soft ground. They were designed to ride on top of deep snow. they exists because people wanted a bike that could ride on top of deep snow. They are a direct result of people building bikes to ride the Iditarod in the '80s.

As for commuting, the best tire size depends on conditions. For deep snow, a Fat tire wins. For hard packed snow, a fat tire wins. But on slushy or icy roads, a thinner studded tire would be best. Also, in highly rutted crusty snow, a thinner tire might be better, that can cut in better.

 

[macribs]

Well, Macribs, it's clear you've never rode a Fatbike on snow. The whole point of the fatbike is to be able to ride on top of deep snow. They do it very well, as well as mud, sand, and any other soft ground. They were designed to ride on top of deep snow. they exists because people wanted a bike that could ride on top of deep snow. They are a direct result of people building bikes to ride the Iditarod in the '80s.

As for commuting, the best tire size depends on conditions. For deep snow, a Fat tire wins. For hard packed snow, a fat tire wins. But on slushy or icy roads, a thinner studded tire would be best. Also, in highly rutted crusty snow, a thinner tire might be better, that can cut in better.

Well I guess my fat ass is just too much weight for those tires then. :lol: :lol: :lol: The first time I tried electric bike last year I had a pinch flat hitting a tiny pothole. Guess I better try a diet I tried a fat bike last year and I was disappointed to say the least. The only place I could ride with confidence wash following the path laid by those prepping machines, and some really packed snowmobile tracks. Outside the prepped path those fat tires did nothing. And I mean nothing. On prepped paths it was ok.

Like this I could ride the fat bike.

Places like this with just plain snow and no man made tracks or paths it was impossible to ride. I even changed the air pressure to the lowest to try make it work, but it was a total fail.

 

[Brentis]

Macribs, what bike and more importantly what tires and pressures were you running.
I recently purchased a cheap Fattie and love it. Im curious myself what winter will bring, but I'm almost certain a pair of quality skins, say Lou and Larry at the right pressures will change your opinion of snow rides.
I just got back from the beach and let me tell you every condition requires different psi and even tire.
Road, I roll easy on 15psi, maybe a lil high, but with the shit tires I'm running, on road I need a lil more pressure to have the right steering feel.
On trail or wet sand, I drop down to 10-12psi or so.
Sugar sand that's hard to walk in. 8-10psi and probably should go lower. It is certainly harder to pedal through but with the right tire and psi, she goes.
Tires and pressures are important on all bikes, but critical to enjoying a Fattie.

Just spent the day at Wasaga Beach(worlds longest fresh water beach) enjoying my Fattie, accept for all the looks and from a few brave young ladies, questions. Today I found out chicks in bikinis really like the Fattie or maybe it was me, no the Fattie.




Sorry for the blurry pics. Resizing has f'd with clarity.

Road, trail, beach all have been a blast. Rolling over obstacles I'd avoid or lift over is priceless. Hope snow doesn't ruin this buzz.

As to the OP I think a BBS02 is a great match to a Fatbike. I am hoping to do something a lil more powerful in a mid-direct drive, but it's hard to argue with the ease of the Bafangs instillation and having use of the drivetrain. Not to mention price and parts and vendor support.
As a side note there are Fatbikes that have had there BB cut down to install a regular 68/73mm version of the BBS02. Saving you money over one of the 100mm conversions. But be careful and do lots of investigating before taking an angle grinder to your new ride. Apparently my bike, rebranded Mongoose Dolomite can have such a mod done.
Good luck and happy, dirty, snowy trails to ya.

Little link to a mad electric Fatbiker. electric-FatbikeHe loves him some Bafang BBS02.

 

[tahustvedt]

I ride a fatbike in the winter (69° N) and used to ride a studded MTB. I now have studded tires on my fatbike, and the studs are pretty much useless because the surface area is too large. Which is best depends on the conditions.

Good on unplowed roads. More controlled than MTB in deep snow and better traction.
Very good on fresh snow with, for example, car tire tracks. Much more controlled than MTB. MTB tires will veer all over the place on the transitions into/out of car tire tracks, and similar surface changes.
Poor grip on smooth ice, even with studded tires. MTB with studs is far superior.
Very good on rough ice, for example pedestrian tracks which have frozen into ice. MTB tires with studs will veer around while even studless fat tires keep in control.

If I wanted to build the perfect winter commuter then I'd make a full suspension MTB with studded tires.

 

[Grizzl-E]

I ride a fatbike in the winter (69° N) and used to ride a studded MTB. I now have studded tires on my fatbike, and the studs are pretty much useless because the surface area is too large. Which is best depends on the conditions.

Good on unplowed roads. More controlled than MTB in deep snow and better traction.
Very good on fresh snow with, for example, car tire tracks. Much more controlled than MTB. MTB tires will veer all over the place on the transitions into/out of car tire tracks, and similar surface changes.
Poor grip on smooth ice, even with studded tires. MTB with studs is far superior.
Very good on rough ice, for example pedestrian tracks which have frozen into ice. MTB tires with studs will veer around while even studless fat tires keep in control.

If I wanted to build the perfect winter commuter then I'd make a full suspension MTB with studded tires.

This is my experience also. I have a dd rear mxus 3000w fat bike and a 2wd (small geared motors) mb.

Fat tires rule when it's rough or soft but have too high of surface area even with studs (unless you over pressure them but then you have hard heavy tires. Kinda sucks)

Even good tires on the 2wd mb sucks on snowy trails or unplowed roads.

If you want only on road go air suspension mb (cheap oil dampened shocks suck in winter). But you will likely ride that mid drive in the too high gear to keep your tire from spinning and negate the efficiency advantage anyway so look at 2wd with small geared motors.

If you want to do anything soft go fat bike.

I'm a hub motor guy cause winter (5-6 months of the year here in Manitoba) is so messy I like avoiding constant chain maintenance.

 

[MadRhino]

Yep, fat bikes do like loose terrain, and they are not made to go fast. Many who are riding them on the street, find that their hope for a smoother ride is disapointing. FS fatbikes are few and kind of weak, but they will come, and better tires too.

 

[webmonkey8]

I appreciate everyone's comments and insights on this!
Well, it looks like there are mixed opinions for MTB vs Fat bike, but one thing is for sure, the Bafang mid-drive motor would prove beneficial for riding in snow, hard packed or loose.

I agree, it would be cheaper to get a MTB with suspension and studded tires, as the 68mm/73mm version of the Bafang is cheaper than the 100mm version for fat bikes. Fat bikes do come with a premium overall.

However, I am fat-curious and I have been thinking about the Framed Minnesota fat bike (http://www.framedbikes.com/mn1new/) for $750. Even getting one with the front suspension fork and mountain bike tire/wheelset options, then, strapping a Bafang mid-drive motor on it would make it the ultimate the most versatile bike.

 

[MadRhino]

t looks like there are mixed opinions for MTB vs Fat bike, but one thing is for sure, the Bafang mid-drive motor would prove beneficial for riding in snow, hard packed or loose.

Nope, almost everyone says that street commuting will be better on a fS mtb frame. Unless they don't clean the streets where you live, or you commute off road.

The bike you link is good for a cheap build, that will be at its best off the streets, and when the streets are not cleaned. Here, this is only a dozen days in the winter, most of the time it is cleaned and salted. I don't even use studs, and I ride fast on 3.0 mud tires.

So let's say this bike can be ultimate only a few days a year. :wink:
Then , slush and salted water are not so good for a mid drive. You can prepare for frequent maintenance.

 

[Ade]

It should be obvious to anyone now that how a fatbike performs in winter is highly dependent on how well matched the tire choice is to the conditions as well as the tire pressure.

Norway here and last winter was a bitch - usually we can count on low temperatures for most of the winter in my area with some thaw/freeze periods in spring. In other words, lots of snow, and very little ice until spring. Not last year, lots of thaw/freeze ice around throughout and my non-studded 4.5" Vee Snowshoes failed in the icey conditions (though on virgin snow, they were qute good). Once I fitted my Dillinger 4 studded hardly one slip for the remainder of winter - it was almost like there was no ice there at all.

I've also tried to bike on a standard hardtail - but really, in any snow worth mentioning, I thought it was pretty suicidal. I guess that would be better on 3" semi-fat tires.

 

[macribs]

Seems my experience with fat bike on snow was not a good one compared to others. I guess I will have to try one more time this winter to see how that will work for me. But possible the 300 lbs rider is the one to blame, maybe even lower air pressure will work?

Years back when I was a kid we used to make our own studded dirt bikes tires from worn out ones. And we used to drive dirt bikes on frozen rivers and lakes in the winter time. Insane to have faster acceleration on ice then you have on the dirt track in the summer. Tons of fun... ahh those where the days.

To bad they use so much salt on our roads nowadays. Salt slush is not good for anything but rust and corrosion.

 

[webmonkey8]

Then , slush and salted water are not so good for a mid drive. You can prepare for frequent maintenance.

MadRhino - would you recommend a rear wheel hub instead for the Winter? I would imagine it would be hard to change a flat for the rear tire.

Looks like lots of options but I now have more insight on this topic. Thank you, everyone!

 

[MadRhino]

I build with through axle bolt on dropouts, doesn't take much longer to change a tire on the rear than front.
A hub is always more reliable, and the worse the riding conditions the more advantages there are to build with a hub.

 

[Brentis]

Then , slush and salted water are not so good for a mid drive. You can prepare for frequent maintenance.

MadRhino - would you recommend a rear wheel hub instead for the Winter? I would imagine it would be hard to change a flat for the rear tire.

Looks like lots of options but I now have more insight on this topic. Thank you, everyone!

I wouldn't worry too much.
The BBS02 is a fairly weather tight unit. It will not suffer salty slush much worse than a hub drive.
Both have there pedal drivetrain parts exposed. Chainring, chain, cassette/freewheel, etc, will need maintenance if you plan on pedalling.
The hub motors advantage being that it can run if you let the chain rust/freeze solid. Still have to watch that freewheel though, don't want that locking up on you.
Another consideration is the weight you put in an already "heavy" wheel. The more I read about Fatbikes the more I discover the importance of lightening the wheelset for better performance. That's where the BBS02 shines keeping the weight low and centered and giving you variable gearing.
Not to talk you out of hub motors, as I'm quite intrigued by a Fatbike with dual small Geared hubs, and may build that route. 2wd drive in sand and snow seems to look a good solution. Spreading the weight across two wheels as well as improved traction. My riding will be 50% or more of riding traction challenged. One heavy DD hub in the rear seems like it would work best on street or hard pack. Less so on tight trails, sand, rocky beds, roots and snow, going slowly.
Guess it really depends on how you ride most. Street or off the beaten path.
Just my 2c.

Hopefully where you live they don't treat the snowy roads in the way they seem to do in Ontario. Here in my area they prefer a two step method. First they spray liquid salt? on the dry roads pre storm. That gets spread everywhere by traffic. Second, they plow as they spread their salt mix out the back of the truck. Their salt is a mix of rock salt, course dirt/sand and maybe even small gravel. It is horrifying for all vehicles, and lawns.

 

[webmonkey8]

I build with through axle bolt on dropouts, doesn't take much longer to change a tire on the rear than front.
A hub is always more reliable, and the worse the riding conditions the more advantages there are to build with a hub.

Interestingly, that Biktrix fat bike does have a 500w rear hub version that is cheaper than the mid-drive version (http://www.biktrix.com/store.html#!/Juggernaut-the-ultimate-electric-fat-bike/p/42702011/category=9487252). That may be an option for me. But like Brentis mentioned, a mid drive does keep the weight centered and low. Both have their pros and cons.

Brentis - I'm from Alberta, Canada, so I can relate to the snow clearing methods of Ontario!

 

[montyp]

I'm guessing we have similar weather here in Minnesota - so here is my take:

Winter riding is not so much the snow as the ice and potholes. Traction isn't a big issue - studs are a must have and with them it is like riding a nice gravel road (in a good way). It is the potholes and ice that create bumps and ruts that will break you down or make you lose control.

Of course you could use a full suspension bike. The issue with suspension is wear and tear. After one season of daily riding your suspension is going to be shot and they are not cheap. This is where the fat bike sounds like a great option. (I haven't tried it, but I would like to)

For commutating the last 5 winters I have been using a rigid MTB with a studded front tire and as fat of a tire as I can fit on the back. I have a front 9 cont'. It is nice to have the weight (15lb?) of the motor on the drive wheel to get traction. Never used a mid-drive, but I can see how that would like nice for the replacement of wheels.

Also get a battery system that you can easily bring inside. The peak output and capacity drops noticeably when the battery gets cold. You can pretty much negate the weather by keeping the battery warm before using it. Once you are riding it will create it's own heat.

Enjoy!!

 

[webmonkey8]

montyp - thanks for sharing your experiences and advice! Good tip on the suspension wear and tear, however I do think at least a front suspension would be more comfortable than rigid, even on a fat bike, with all of those ice ruts and stuff. But in the long run, it would be cheaper, from a maintenance perspective, to run a rigid fork and let the tires absorb most of it.

I'm also reading that studded tires, at least the front tire, is a must for snowy/icy conditions. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Brentis]

Suspension is great if you can afford quality.
It can be ugly if not.
After riding too many shitty pogo forks, I decided that a fatter tire (2.5") on a rigid fork a much more controlled and fun ride. A front tire bouncing around without control just sucks for confidence in handling.
But I ride a lot of rooted trails, gravel pits, sand and soon snow.
Then of course there is the additional maintenance of a fork.

Everything is a compromise or trade off.
Unless you can afford to buy the best of the best.
Maybe a Salsa Bucksaw with two wheel sets.
A fat winter setup and a skinnier dry setup.

Got fat pockets? :wink: