First Hub Wheel Build

[kudos]

My first thread in a long time.....

I'm about to build up a rear wheel (for the first time) using a Mac motor and I will have noob questions I hope the elders can answer.

I've never done this before and would have preferred to pay someone else to do it, but the options these days are limited and invariably too expensive, so I'm going to have a go myself and see if I can add this skill to my repertoire.

I've always wanted to be able to lace up wheels as this opens up many more build possibilities.
It's nigh on impossible to get exactly the motor you want, laced into exactly the rim you want, with exactly the colour spoke/nipples you want, without doing multiple global shipments between 3rd parties.

So, I wanted to match my front wheel which is a Halo SAS 26" and I managed to nab the very last Halo SAS 26" 36hole rim seemingly available anywhere.

https://www.halowheels.com/shop/components/rims/sas-26-rim-2/



According to the specs the dimensions of the rim are:

ERD : 538mm
Outside RIM Width : 36mm

According to ebike.ca spoke calculator the spokes lengths I need are:



I have no idea how accurate I need to be when ordering the spoke lengths?

Do I go for 189mm or 190mm ?

Where is the best place to source spokes in the UK anyone know?

Looking around I've found these Sapim e-strong spokes:

https://www.spokesfromryan.com/product/sapim-e-strong-12-13g-single-butted-black-j-bend/

No idea if the 12g (2.6mm) end will fit into the spoke holes on the Mac - anyone know?

I do want a strong wheel, but do I even need these or can I go for a more standard spoke like:

https://www.spokesfromryan.com/product/sapim-strong-spoke-black/

When it comes to nipples, It looks like the 'standard' size is 14g (2.0mm) but these ebike spokes are thicker 13g(2.3mm)and you need to use reducer nipples from 13g to 14g like this - is this corrrect?

https://www.spokesfromryan.com/product/bat-reduction-nipples-13g-spoke-to-14g-spoke-hole-silver/

More Noob questions to follow no doubt...

Kudos

 

[docw009]

Will it hurt to wait til the rim arrives and verify the ERD? I'd trust a manufacturer's number over my own lying eyes and a tape measure, but I did buy a rim off ebay and ordered spokes using the listed ERD, and it was wrong.

 

[Chalo]

Put the spoke elbows outside the hub flange for improved wheel strength and stiffness, and easier lacing.

 

[kudos]

Will it hurt to wait til the rim arrives and verify the ERD? I'd trust a manufacturer's number over my own lying eyes and a tape measure, but I did buy a rim off ebay and ordered spokes using the listed ERD, and it was wrong.

I have the RIM and I have now measured it using the fine instructional video at GRIN and everything matches the given specs.

Chalo, I have checked my existing wheel builds and noticed something for the very first time:

The spokes on the drive side (right) are elbowed outside where as the spokes on the disc side (left) are elbowed inside.

I hadn’t noticed this before but I have four existing wheels which all came from e3ev and all are built this way.

Never had an issue so I’m going to build this way too, it also has the benefit of bringing the spoke lengths to nearly identical length on both sides.

 

[E-HP]

Do I go for 189mm or 190mm ?

Based on my single wheel build and the research I did prior to it, always round up. It's more important for the spoke to be fully engaged in the nipple, flush with the end of the nipple threads, for maximum strength.
My beginner's tip is to make sure you lube the nipples or spoke threads well. I've been riding on mine for a year, but will be tuning it this winter, and replacing several nipples that got chewed up when tensioning the wheel (the ones that weren't lubed enough, making them bind). Also, not knowing what to expect, I thought I bought spokes that were too short when I first got it laced up, but after several rounds of tensioning they turned out to be just right. I was little worried until it all started to come together. Good luck. I'm using the same rim in 24" and Sapim E-Strong spokes. and the ERD specs were spot on (but I still measured before ordering).

 

[kudos]

What spoke lube do you recommend ?

I see wheelsmith spoke prep / spoke dope is popular in the states but it’s not readily available in the UK.

 

[gobi]

I use a synthetic marine grease to lube my metal/metal contacts.
I buy PEAK syn grease from pepboys, best price for syn marine grease.
FYI: I use the same to coat my salt water fishing reels...

 

[E-HP]

What spoke lube do you recommend ?

I see wheelsmith spoke prep / spoke dope is popular in the states but it’s not readily available in the UK.

I used regular motor oil like on the Grin video, just not enough of it (I just dripped some on the spoke thread instead of soaking the nipples in it) , but I watched others that use white lithium grease.
https://youtu.be/3OialWggZJo?t=152

 

[Chalo]

What spoke lube do you recommend ?

I see wheelsmith spoke prep / spoke dope is popular in the states but it’s not readily available in the UK.

I used regular motor oil like on the Grin video, just not enough of it (I just dripped some on the spoke thread instead of soaking the nipples in it) , but I watched others that use white lithium grease.
https://youtu.be/3OialWggZJo?t=152

I avoid Spoke Prep unless the customer demands it. The only way to know your spokes are tight enough is to let them unscrew to tell you they're not. If you use Spoke Prep, you'll never know if you got your spokes adequately tight. It's papering over a problem instead of fixing it.

I used to grease spoke threads, but now I lace the wheel dry, then drip either Tri-Flow or Dri-Slide on the spoke threads where they emerge from the nipples, letting a little bit run down into the rim hole. It's a lot faster, and it works just as well.

 

[E-HP]

I used to grease spoke threads, but now I lace the wheel dry, then drip either Tri-Flow or Dri-Slide on the spoke threads where they emerge from the nipples, letting a little bit run down into the rim hole. It's a lot faster, and it works just as well.

I think that's what my issue was; no lube around the rim hole, just the threads.

 

[Chalo]

I used to grease spoke threads, but now I lace the wheel dry, then drip either Tri-Flow or Dri-Slide on the spoke threads where they emerge from the nipples, letting a little bit run down into the rim hole. It's a lot faster, and it works just as well.

I think that's what my issue was; no lube around the rim hole, just the threads.

Back when I used grease, I would use a cotton swab to dab a whiff of grease on the inside of the rim hole or eyelet. Oil is actually better at finding its way to where it needs to be.

 

[999zip999]

E-hp saids oil only on threads and Chalo said oil the rim hole and nipple ? So which one do I do . If I oil the rim holes after new build will the nipples seat better into the rim ?

 

[E-HP]

E-hp saids oil only on threads and Chalo said oil the rim hole and nipple ? So which one do I do . If I oil the rim holes after new build will the nipples seat better into the rim ?

Chalo is right. I didn't have it in the rim eyelets and it made the spokes really difficult to tension. I'll see when I redo things, if lubing both helps.

 

[ZeroEm]

Dropped my nipples in a dish of oil and pulled them out as needed. Lost friction on my finger tips.

 

[999zip999]

I just laced a mxus 3,000 in a new rim wein.... Dm30 rim with the old spaim 13/14 spokes with the same old brass washers and nipple lube on the inside threads. Only 80miles will take off and retrue as soon as I make a better wheel stand plus add more nipple lube. I had to replace 3 spokes.
Waiting to see if this works ???

 

[nicobie]

When it comes to bicycle stuff I'd listen to Chalo.

Actually I agree with him with on politics' and lifestyle choices too.

 

[999zip999]

Nicobie so ok your are one of those.
Let us see you wearing your fur cap

 

[ebbsocalMTB]

I build a LOT of wheels and have for many years. Not quite so sure about all of the advice in this thread... but everyone has their preferences and maybe there is some anecdotal experience I'm not aware of. Take my advice with a grain of salt, I learned to build wheels for downhill mountain bike racing. I have, and still do break a lot of wheels, so I'm pushing the equipment to it's absolute extreme... some of my advice may not be necessary for those who make better life choices.

I use boiled linseed oil as spoke prep and I use tri-flow to lube the nipple/rim interface. I agree with the sizing up of spokes. Pay close attention to spoke length if you're using nipple washers or if the rim has eyelets that are not factored into the ERD. Also pay attention to nipple length... to my knowledge, only dt swiss changes the thread positioning/length/depth of their nipples as the length changes.

I personally would never lace a 2-cross or 3-cross J-bend wheel build with the bends on the same side of the hub flange. I could see doing that on a radial wheel build but I for sure wouldn't on a cross lacing build.

Other advice:
1) pre-bend the j-bends when you slip the spokes through the hub flange.
2) achieve equal thread depth across the wheel essentially zero tension on the spokes prior to attempting to get to baseline, working tension
3) When you're starting out, always work in sequence of: radial, lateral, dish, de-tension - rinse-repeat. do not try to jump half way in the sequence to remedy an issue.
4) build tension slowly... this will cut down on partner spoke balancing later in the build
5) pay close attention to spoke wind-up... not so much of an issue on straight gauge, or heavy gauge spokes... but definitely a big deal on anything smaller then 2.0-1.8-2.0 double butted spokes.
6) park tool's youtube on lacing will help you align the logo on the hub/hub-motor with the valve stem hole. This is a vanity thing, but when you build wheels a lot, it's one of those chip on the shoulder moves.
7) write down, or use an app (park tool's is quite good) to validate tension deviation per side in an effort to achieve true while also being balanced on a given side... this is the way you build a wheel that will not de-tension. Sometimes you just cannot achieve perfectly even tension on a given side... common with cheaper hoops and spokes. In that case, pay close attention to partner/pair spoke tension balance.
8) I will always sacrifice perfect true for spoke tension balance.
9) make sure you know the target or max spoke tension for your hoop and shoot for just below that for final tension on the

 

[Chalo]

I personally would never lace a 2-cross or 3-cross J-bend wheel build with the bends on the same side of the hub flange. I could see doing that on a radial wheel build but I for sure wouldn't on a cross lacing build.

I doubt it's even possible to lace X2 or X3 with spokes on the same side of the flange, at least not without brutally kinking the spokes where they cross. Nobody does that.

But when you're talking about large diameter hubs like hub motors, usually the only cross laced pattern that works correctly is cross-one. Anything more causes the spokes to enter the rim at an adverse angle. Cross-one lacing works just fine with spokes emerging from the same side of the flange. Lacing that way really helps mitigate some of the nasty tension imbalances that result from dishing a wheel that has super narrow flange spacing (like most hub motors).

 

[kudos]

Had to order the spokes from one retailer and nipples from another, they were the only two UK retailers who had them.

Sapim e-strong spokes & Sapim BAT Reducer nipples.

Do I need to buy a wheel truing stand for a one-off wheel build?
(Might do a couple more in the future)

If so which one?

 

[ZeroEm]

Use one of my other bikes upside down as not planning on building many wheels. Just do all the measurements.

 

[kudos]

Other advice:
1) pre-bend the j-bends when you slip the spokes through the hub flange.
2) achieve equal thread depth across the wheel essentially zero tension on the spokes prior to attempting to get to baseline, working tension
3) When you're starting out, always work in sequence of: radial, lateral, dish, de-tension - rinse-repeat. do not try to jump half way in the sequence to remedy an issue.
4) build tension slowly... this will cut down on partner spoke balancing later in the build
5) pay close attention to spoke wind-up... not so much of an issue on straight gauge, or heavy gauge spokes... but definitely a big deal on anything smaller then 2.0-1.8-2.0 double butted spokes.
6) park tool's youtube on lacing will help you align the logo on the hub/hub-motor with the valve stem hole. This is a vanity thing, but when you build wheels a lot, it's one of those chip on the shoulder moves.
7) write down, or use an app (park tool's is quite good) to validate tension deviation per side in an effort to achieve true while also being balanced on a given side... this is the way you build a wheel that will not de-tension. Sometimes you just cannot achieve perfectly even tension on a given side... common with cheaper hoops and spokes. In that case, pay close attention to partner/pair spoke tension balance.
8) I will always sacrifice perfect true for spoke tension balance.
9) make sure you know the target or max spoke tension for your hoop and shoot for just below that for final tension on the

Thanks for your input, can I ask:

1) Pre-bend the j-bends how?

2) How do I find out what the max spoke tension should be? Is this a parameter defined by the wheel rim?
Edit: Just found the figure 100 - 135KGs - seems a lot!

3) Boiled linseed oil - do you literally just dip the threaded part of the spoke in this oil briefly?

 

[amberwolf]

I used to use some of the various methods here
https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+use+your+bicycle+as+DIY+wheel+truing+stand

but nowadays I can often just go by eye and feel after having fixed so many wheels.

But I would rather have even tension than a perfectly true wheel, for anything not using a rim brake. I don't have a tensiometer, so I have to go by sound to determine relative tensions. (I could use a tuner for that, but I go by ear since I'm also used to tuning stringed instruments, etc).

 

[ZeroEm]

kudos spokes need to be tight, seems crazy for them to be that tight. You can get a tension gauge, building a few wheels you can guess at it. compare to other bikes spokes. If they are not tight enough the nipples could back off. tensioned mine after 500 miles and still good today thousands of miles later.

Build the first one then if you think you need a wheel building bench with all the tools then go for it.

Chalo does this for a living and amberwolf puts his wheels thru extremes, if it works for them!

 

[E-HP]

Do I need to buy a wheel truing stand for a one-off wheel build?
(Might do a couple more in the future)

I got one, but not because I needed one, but because I wanted to lace the wheel while sitting in my kitchen. Warm, with coffee and snacks right there. I got a super cheap one and paid $38 a year ago, but it looks like they're $7 or $8 more now. It's not a precision tool, but not worse, and probably easier than using your bike, and you can sort of true it by sound, when you adjust the feelers closer. It's not that you can't do the same thing on the bike, but it's pretty convenient.

I'll be using it again this week when I replace some nipples and a broken spoke and re-true my wheel, and also when I put together a bike for my wife, so the cost of the convenience factor will be spread over two wheels, and re-truings, so $10/use, assuming I stop at 2 hubs. Oh, actually maybe 3, since when I changed my mind, and replaced the factory laced 26" rim with a 24", I decided to use that rim with the one on my 1000W hub (provided I don't use it for my wife's bike).

What I don't like is that the dropouts that hold the axle are plastic/nylon. They seem Ok, durability-wise, but if I were looking for one again, I'd look for those parts to be metal.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B095C1JCK2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1