Fly or Fry ? how much can a 409 handle !
- Thread starter Ypedal
- Start date
Ypedal
100 TW
Here are the connections between the coils and the phase wires, i'm not 100 % sure of the purpose of the circuit board, but i suspect it's to prevent damage to the copper coils if the wires get pulled ( as in spinning axle in the frame :? )
Ypedal
100 TW
Ypedal
100 TW
Ypedal
100 TW
Ypedal
100 TW
Now, the big question : What can i do to this motor ?
First of all, this will be going into my Chaos to replace the current 406/409 , so i'm removing the relay setup etc.. am bypassing the BMS on the Lithium packs to draw as many amps as i see fit.
I wanted to prove to myself that the battery, as delivered, was functional and in good health, the 20ah cells provide 20 amps with ease so now we find out what it does at 40 + !
The controller will be a 72v 40 amp unit ( If i can ever find the time to mod one, i'd like an 80 amp capable unit.. any volunteers out there ? :wink: )
The axle of the motor can easily be widened to allow larger gauge wire, what is the largest diameter wire that this motor could use without excessiveness ?
The bearings are going to be replaced with better quality units, i'm going to a local bearing shop to check out my options, considering ceramic !
Magnets ? any sense in replacing those ? worth it ?
Any other mods possible ?
First of all, this will be going into my Chaos to replace the current 406/409 , so i'm removing the relay setup etc.. am bypassing the BMS on the Lithium packs to draw as many amps as i see fit.
I wanted to prove to myself that the battery, as delivered, was functional and in good health, the 20ah cells provide 20 amps with ease so now we find out what it does at 40 + !
The controller will be a 72v 40 amp unit ( If i can ever find the time to mod one, i'd like an 80 amp capable unit.. any volunteers out there ? :wink: )
The axle of the motor can easily be widened to allow larger gauge wire, what is the largest diameter wire that this motor could use without excessiveness ?
The bearings are going to be replaced with better quality units, i'm going to a local bearing shop to check out my options, considering ceramic !
Magnets ? any sense in replacing those ? worth it ?
Any other mods possible ?
disndat
100 W
It would probably be too expensive(unless you owned your own machine shop),but you could have the outer casings made from aluminum to lighten things up a bit
Just a thought :wink:
Just a thought :wink:
Ypedal
100 TW
I beleive they are aluminum already, very light, . about the same as the bearrings they hold.
It's the magnets that account for most of the weight .
The iron stator could be shaved down considerably, not sure how easy/time consuming/dangerous that would be ?
It's the magnets that account for most of the weight .
The iron stator could be shaved down considerably, not sure how easy/time consuming/dangerous that would be ?
disndat
100 W
Thats interesting I didn't know that.Do they make magnets of the same power but less weight?
Ypedal
100 TW
any convenient ways of testing this ? i beleive the " N " rating or something like that ?
Doctorbass
100 GW
Ypedal, What is the gauge of the phase wire of the clyte 400 serie?.. I think the 5000 serie have bigger wire noh?... like 12 gauge... ?
TylerDurden
100 GW
Those should already be Neo magnets. The case may be a zinc of some sort.
The best mod IMO, is ventilation. There must be a way to move air through the case without allowing water and crud to ingress.
The best mod IMO, is ventilation. There must be a way to move air through the case without allowing water and crud to ingress.
magudaman
10 kW
I recall the max power people said to put into the 4 series was around 1600 watts. After that you can't get the heat out. My 409 gets pretty warm if I do a full speed neighborhood ride which cooks off my 250 watt hours of batteries in 20 minutes with my 20 amp controller (peaks at ~25 amps). I have to get the actual temp reading some day. Let us know because I really wanted to go up to something like 35 amps but decided not to push over that 1600 watts. I pretty sure they are already neo magnets.
BiGH
100 kW
i'm running my 408 at 2978.5w fully charged
- how about i just call it 3kw
so you can definatly run high power through the motor. However the higher speed helps with cooling the outside casing of the motor.
409 is going to produce some serious torqs! i don't think the wires going into the motor are going to be the limiting factor of such high power - its more likely the coils themselves are going to burn up - and as such i agree ventilation is probably the best thing. using holes drilled at an angle could be used to force air in as the wheel is turning, mesh could be used to keep all but the smallest particles out, which would simply mean the hub needs to be stripped down ever x klms.
- how about i just call it 3kw so you can definatly run high power through the motor. However the higher speed helps with cooling the outside casing of the motor.
409 is going to produce some serious torqs! i don't think the wires going into the motor are going to be the limiting factor of such high power - its more likely the coils themselves are going to burn up - and as such i agree ventilation is probably the best thing. using holes drilled at an angle could be used to force air in as the wheel is turning, mesh could be used to keep all but the smallest particles out, which would simply mean the hub needs to be stripped down ever x klms.
Mark_A_W
100 kW
Are these power numbers you guys bandy about measured?
Because if you just multiple Max current x Max Voltage it's not right - well, maybe in Stall.
For instance my Controller is rated at 350w, yet the max current is listed as 17amps. My Voltage is 54v = 918 watts.
But according to the manufacture it's more like 350w.
I'm going to borrow a clamp meter and measure current under load.
Because if you just multiple Max current x Max Voltage it's not right - well, maybe in Stall.
For instance my Controller is rated at 350w, yet the max current is listed as 17amps. My Voltage is 54v = 918 watts.
But according to the manufacture it's more like 350w.
I'm going to borrow a clamp meter and measure current under load.
BiGH
100 kW
nah this is max theoretical power... my cycle anaylist arives probably next week, by the the torque arm should be done too - which will mean i'll be able to give decent figures of actual watts out etc!
edit: i'm looking very much foward to the current limiting aspect of the CA - will try running the 408 at 72v 10a, 15a, 20a etc. to put a lower strain on the batts
edit: i'm looking very much foward to the current limiting aspect of the CA - will try running the 408 at 72v 10a, 15a, 20a etc. to put a lower strain on the batts
Ypedal
100 TW
The idea is to feed as much power into the motor as it can use.
There are mechanical limitations here i suppose. ie: Copper coil gauge !
Hey.. : If i modified the axle on the oposite side of the wires, to introduce an air line, i could force feed CLEAN air into the hub, as long as air is pushing out of the side covers no dirt should get in ?
a small pack of plugs could be used in the wet, but open it up when dry !
Would i be weakening the axle too much i wonder ?
There are mechanical limitations here i suppose. ie: Copper coil gauge !
Hey.. : If i modified the axle on the oposite side of the wires, to introduce an air line, i could force feed CLEAN air into the hub, as long as air is pushing out of the side covers no dirt should get in ?
a small pack of plugs could be used in the wet, but open it up when dry !
Would i be weakening the axle too much i wonder ?
Drunkskunk
100 GW
Ypedal said:
It would take a lot of air to be effective, meaning you would need a filter and a fairly high pressure pump to get enough air through such a snmall space.
what about a liquid cooling system? run a small water line in one side, add some copper tube coils around the base of the coils, then run the line out the other side. add a small radiator up higher than the motor, and use convection heating to curculate the water the way the do for those liquid cooled Computers.
Storm
100 W
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2007
- Messages
- 108
Only one way to find out
If your axle holds out it should work, if you always have constant pressure water shouldnt get in, depending on the size of the holes I guess.
Infact electric motors are fine with minor dirt and water inside the only problen you may be concerned about is the bearings wearing prematurely, they are not very expensive to replace especially when you compare them to the fact that to force feed the air you would need to use a powered pump which would not only cost valuable power but also eat into the charge cycles of your expensive batteries. All wiring is enamelled or plastic coated inside the motors.
If your axle holds out it should work, if you always have constant pressure water shouldnt get in, depending on the size of the holes I guess.
Infact electric motors are fine with minor dirt and water inside the only problen you may be concerned about is the bearings wearing prematurely, they are not very expensive to replace especially when you compare them to the fact that to force feed the air you would need to use a powered pump which would not only cost valuable power but also eat into the charge cycles of your expensive batteries. All wiring is enamelled or plastic coated inside the motors.
Attachments
Ypedal
100 TW
Whoa.. was is that i'm looking at ?
TylerDurden
100 GW
I was imagining a raised edge on the case sides to act as a slinger, and ventilation slots closer to the axle, with a plate a few mm away. (Passive vent.)
Yes, forced-air cooling will increase the maximum power.
It's tricky since the hub is moving and the axle is way too small to get sufficient air through.
One way would be to drill both side covers with holes, then mount some kind of cup over one side that's fed by a blower. The cup would be stationary, with a small gap between it and the side cover. The other side could just be open. Air blowing out will prevent most dirt and water from entering. A little water won't hurt anything inside anyway.
It's tricky since the hub is moving and the axle is way too small to get sufficient air through.
One way would be to drill both side covers with holes, then mount some kind of cup over one side that's fed by a blower. The cup would be stationary, with a small gap between it and the side cover. The other side could just be open. Air blowing out will prevent most dirt and water from entering. A little water won't hurt anything inside anyway.
BiGH
100 kW
I personally like the axle idea quite a lot. just having moving air through the motor should help heat dissipation in a big way!.
It would be MAD on a recumbent - fit it to a ram scoup F1 style behind the head of the rider (driver)
The other idea is to use a small 12V portable car compressor - these are fairly light and you could easily make an adaptor to fit over an M12 end bolt by fitting it to a Car nut and drilling it down the center, weld in a nipple (non lead bearing)
(this last bit isn't probably a good idea)and if your motor is not been sealed using silicon, then you could just leave it with the one entry hole. I'm sure there is enoguh airgaps for the air to come out under pressure
It would be MAD on a recumbent - fit it to a ram scoup F1 style behind the head of the rider (driver)
The other idea is to use a small 12V portable car compressor - these are fairly light and you could easily make an adaptor to fit over an M12 end bolt by fitting it to a Car nut and drilling it down the center, weld in a nipple (non lead bearing)
(this last bit isn't probably a good idea)and if your motor is not been sealed using silicon, then you could just leave it with the one entry hole. I'm sure there is enoguh airgaps for the air to come out under pressure
TylerDurden
100 GW
Passive can make a big difference when there are enough openings. My 250W motor can drop more than 8 degrees C just by spinning the rotor to get the air moving. A closed motor would have much more trapped heat. (duh.)
FWIW, small compressors move tiny amounts of air. They have a piston w/ about 1cc displacement.
FWIW, small compressors move tiny amounts of air. They have a piston w/ about 1cc displacement.
Similar threads
