GNG / CYC X1 Pro 3000w

[n2mb]

Updates:

For the people that posted above, I'm seeing 100 motor amps and 70 battery amps at 52V. Max battery power of 3100 watts, motor power 3000 watts, using the ASI BAC 855. So, it is pulling very well, for such a small controller.

However, I do very occasionally get the error "Instantaneous phase over current". Usually when I hit the throttle hard from a slow speed or stopped. My instantaneous over current limit is set to 122 A. Motor rated current is set to 100 amps.

I'm guessing it is related to the Current regulator tuning. I'm not able to set the Current Regulator bandwidth to 3000 as recommended. If I set the Current Regulator bandwidth to 3000 or even values as low as 500, I get jerky motor starting and it faults almost instantly after hitting the throttle. Higher values are jerky to start on the bike stand, but smooth when riding. But, it still faults. It only works correctly if I set the bandwidth to 0 and tune the Current Regulator Kp and Ki manually.

I have had to tune the Kp and Ki terms manually to:
Current regulator Ki = 16
Current regulator Kp = 1

I have used the autotune to measure Ls and Rs and the values seem reasonable:
Ls = 25
Rs = 12

I have kept the PLL bandwidth = 300. I'm wondering if that should be changed?

Also interesting. The auto discovery of the hall sensors fails for me. I get unreasonable values and have to manually program the hall sectors.

Any ideas how to tune the current regulator with this motor?

 

[n2mb]

Ok, here are my latest settings. They are working pretty well. I can't get the overcurrent fault to trigger any more.

I've highlighted what I think is important. I changed the sensorless settings, but I am still using sensored start and sensorless run, so I don't think those settings actually matter.

Important changes:
Current Regulator Ki = 10
Current Regulator Kp = 1
Current regulator bandwidth = 0 (disabled).
PLL Bandwidth = 300 (this might need to increase)
Rated motor current = 101 (maxed out)

I ran autotune and got Ls = 23 and Rs = 12. I think the defaults were a bit different.

Positive motoring Torque ramp 150 ms. I tripped the error with this set to 50 ms, so I think increasing this a bit is important.

Free wheel spin up option
0.02 puA (translates to 2 amps)
Bit 6 motor stall shutoff enable = on

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mcmm8a4c8uio574/2021-02-17%20Settings.pdf?dl=0

 

[knurf]

I thought I'd share the latest changes to my CYC X1 (gen 1) setup, since I finally have it running and behaving the way I like. I desperately needed something to replace my decommissioned 6kW Tangent setup and I'm very happy that I think I found it!

Setup:
Bike: Giant Glory 2011
Domino throttle
Cycle Analyst 3 3.14 FW (throttle signal pass-through)
CYC X1 Gen 1 chain 11->63->38 gearing (updated hardened steel sprocket and sprag clutch)
Flipsky 75v 200A ESC bought from: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001407082959.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.73dd4c4dB5W6a7
Bluetooth module https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000077328832.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.73dd4c4dB5W6a7
Backpack with 150A capable 14s 20Ah battery, RC-lipos with BMS

I'm running it sensored at all rpms and still fine-tuning it (which is quick with bluetooth and the VESC Tool app, as long as you have an Android-phone), but the throttle response and pull is excellent already. Not sure how much power I put through it yet but easily over 4kW. Compared to my loved Tangent setup this is an improvement in all aspects, reliability, power delivery, control and motor/controller heat. It can crawl better in lower rpm but when I twist it like I mean it, the front wheel pops up and it just GOES.

The ultimate measurement - it creates more grin per watt than the Tangent did, probably because the gearbox isn't also a coffee grinder that hits 80 deg C regularly... This thing, I can just barely get it warm in this weather. Really amazing to me. The ESC peaks at 40-45 deg C, not bad at all.
Does 60km/h+ right now, not interested chasing top speeds, but any voltage increase or heavier gearing would take it into truly deadly speeds.

Just need to figure out a better placement for the ESC itself and also do something about water protecting it.

Edit: the only problem I have with it is the temperature measurement on the CYC. It is not separate from the hall sensors, so hooking that up to the CA confused the VESC about the hall signals, but it might work better if paired with the VESC temperature pin instead. Have not tried that. Anyway, seems unnecessary since I can't run this hard enough (yet) to get it hot enough for it to matter.

 

[Ham]

Top stuff, well done for modding it and getting it how you want. I am still working on getting mine perfect, it's close.

How did you get the domino connected: just rewire it to a JST connector?

As for waterproofing it may be worth having a look at ACF50 waterproofer...aviation industry over here (UK) use it to protect electronic components...

 

[knurf]

Top stuff, well done for modding it and getting it how you want. I am still working on getting mine perfect, it's close.

How did you get the domino connected: just rewire it to a JST connector?

As for waterproofing it may be worth having a look at ACF50 waterproofer...aviation industry over here (UK) use it to protect electronic components...

Yeah I know all about those things, probably will cover the circuit board with silicone conformal coating (have some already) but the thing appears glued to the bottom aluminium piece. Probably need to apply some heat and careful bending there. What complicates it a bit further is the large amount of exposed small connectors on the top.

I get the worst road conditions this time of year, lots of water and salt spray, ACF50 alone doesn't hold up for very long. I usually also need some physical shielding as a first line of defence. Old decommissioned inner tubes are great for that. I have had problems with stray battery voltage leaking over to exposed shunts and throttle wires via water, mostly just causing annoyance rather than run away throttle or magic smoke..

The domino was pulled from my Tangent setup, so yes its just got a 3-pin JST connector with a 470ohm resistor on the black wire. CA throttle type is PWM-signal 1.0-2.0ms

 

[Ham]

You had to add a resistor to the throttle specifically for CA or would it also be needed for the stock CYC controller? Thanks

 

[knurf]

You had to add a resistor to the throttle specifically for CA or would it also be needed for the stock CYC controller? Thanks

Oh, no that's not needed really. It was something Dave did with the Tangent kit and I think it makes it possible to detect and handle a disconnected throttle connector better.

 

[Ham]

Ah Ok, must've been a later addition as don't recall a resistor in line on my tangent throttle. Cool. Thanks for your help.

 

[PRW]

I am (hopefully) about to install a Gen 2 3000w motor on a Surly Moonlander. Even though the Moonlander's bb is 100mm, got the 120mm motor, due to the chainline.

First hurdle - how does the attached come apart? BB shells don't seem to twist off?



EDIT - found the video below - but left this post for others....
[youtube]9NVpDCyEkMo[/youtube]

 

[cheeko]

Hi Everyone

anyone know if this would fits on Stealth P7R fully custom only bought as frame new, i would really like to give the 5KW a go as im bit over HUBS weight its great but like some gears LOL, I just wonder if it woudl fit with the angles i would probly keep my controller as its pretty good,

Photos is one with my old controller now im rocking Nucular controller

Be interesting

Regards
Cheeko

 

[PRW]

I have installed a CYC X1 Pro on s Surly Moonlander. However, the controller and wiring is very exposed.

Has anyone come up with an easy way to make a cover? I could try and do a 3d print, but there are zipties in the way. I had an idea of using a polyester casting (as in used for a broken arm cast) to make a cover that warps around, but thought there may be better ideas out there. Alternatively, sealing all in silicon, but I am not sure what this does to controller heat

 

[Tommm]

Hi Everyone

anyone know if this would fits on Stealth P7R fully custom only bought as frame new, i would really like to give the 5KW a go as im bit over HUBS weight its great but like some gears LOL, I just wonder if it woudl fit with the angles i would probly keep my controller as its pretty good,

Photos is one with my old controller now im rocking Nucular controller

Be interesting

Regards
Cheeko

I would suggest keep this hub build and build a lightweight bike with the cyc. Coming from someone who has a cyc build and just finished their own mxus build, the cyc will not replace what you have now. The cyc is a specialized machine and the hub motor is good for general riding.

 

[Tuomito]

Ok, here are my latest settings. They are working pretty well. I can't get the overcurrent fault to trigger any more.

I've highlighted what I think is important. I changed the sensorless settings, but I am still using sensored start and sensorless run, so I don't think those settings actually matter.

Important changes:
Current Regulator Ki = 10
Current Regulator Kp = 1
Current regulator bandwidth = 0 (disabled).
PLL Bandwidth = 300 (this might need to increase)
Rated motor current = 101 (maxed out)

I ran autotune and got Ls = 23 and Rs = 12. I think the defaults were a bit different.

Positive motoring Torque ramp 150 ms. I tripped the error with this set to 50 ms, so I think increasing this a bit is important.

Free wheel spin up option
0.02 puA (translates to 2 amps)
Bit 6 motor stall shutoff enable = on

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mcmm8a4c8uio574/2021-02-17%20Settings.pdf?dl=0

Hello

I Have been running the cyc x1 Gen2 for a some time now, about 400km. Mostly commuting to work but also winter trail riding here in Finland. After changing some of the settings I am now pretty pleased with have the motor works. I ride using pas, torgue sensing. I use the thumb throttle only for assisting when pushing the bike.

One thing that could be improved is the "lag" time for the motor to assist when pedaling. Starting from still the motor assist with no lag but when up to speed, there is one or two crank revolutions of lag, when pedaling after coasting. Free wheel spin up option helpet to alot and now there is no lag when I coast for a couple of seconds, as long as the motor is moving (free wheel spin up is workng). The lag time still exists when coasting for bit longer and the free wheel spin up deactivates.

I have been wondering what settings should I change to hepl me with this problem..

Any ideas?

 

[Ham]

I believe the start current setting will cause the motor to stay spinning for a while, it certainly causes the motor to spin whilst pedalling with zero effort...kind of cruise control so long as the crank rpm is above 1

 

[Grantmac]

You could remove the motor sprag clutch and lock it/replace with a normal bushing. YES you'd be spinning the motor when you pedal but my experience with a much bigger motor is that it's not a huge deal and if you lose all power you just remove the motor chain.
In return you get much better response from the whole system.

 

[n2mb]

Hello

I Have been running the cyc x1 Gen2 for a some time now, about 400km. Mostly commuting to work but also winter trail riding here in Finland. After changing some of the settings I am now pretty pleased with have the motor works. I ride using pas, torgue sensing. I use the thumb throttle only for assisting when pushing the bike.

One thing that could be improved is the "lag" time for the motor to assist when pedaling. Starting from still the motor assist with no lag but when up to speed, there is one or two crank revolutions of lag, when pedaling after coasting. Free wheel spin up option helpet to alot and now there is no lag when I coast for a couple of seconds, as long as the motor is moving (free wheel spin up is workng). The lag time still exists when coasting for bit longer and the free wheel spin up deactivates.

I have been wondering what settings should I change to hepl me with this problem..

Any ideas?

Try lowering "Pedalec Positive Motoring Torque Ramp (ms)" to 50 ms.

 

[Tuomito]

Try lowering "Pedalec Positive Motoring Torque Ramp (ms)" to 50 ms.

Thanks for the answers..
I already have the "Pedalec Positive Motoring Torque Ramp (ms)" set to 50ms..

I try today change the "Pedalec sensorless open loop frequency ramp time" from 300ms to 100ms and see if that helps.


I different problem with the setup is that I have been getting some strange power offs lately. When pedaling along normally I go over, for example, a curb and similar obstacle, the power cuts off. When coasting down a trail for example, everything is fine. Only when the motor is powered this happens. The throttle doesn´t do anything and pedal assist wont function either. After few seconds the display also shuts offs. When trying to power it back up the display just blinks and shuts off again. It seems to help plug out the battery or messing with the cables, or something because I am able to get it running again after a while. Maybe loose connection, spike in current?

 

[Tuomito]

I different problem with the setup is that I have been getting some strange power offs lately. When pedaling along normally I go over, for example, a curb and similar obstacle, the power cuts off. When coasting down a trail for example, everything is fine. Only when the motor is powered this happens. The throttle doesn´t do anything and pedal assist wont function either. After few seconds the display also shuts offs. When trying to power it back up the display just blinks and shuts off again. It seems to help plug out the battery or messing with the cables, or something because I am able to get it running again after a while. Maybe loose connection, spike in current?

This problems was solved, a bad solder in one of the xt90 series connectors

 

[Ham]

I have a mounting problem to solve and am wondering if anyone knows how much upward force the unit puts on the frame at full power?

I am looking at needing to fabricate a mount that will attach the unit to a moving bottom bracket and am trying to guage just how beefy it needs to be. The main side plates will still be in place but somewhat trimmed fwiw.

 

[bbaldrickk]

I thought I'd share the latest changes to my CYC X1 (gen 1) setup, since I finally have it running and behaving the way I like. I desperately needed something to replace my decommissioned 6kW Tangent setup and I'm very happy that I think I found it!

Setup:
Bike: Giant Glory 2011
Domino throttle
Cycle Analyst 3 3.14 FW (throttle signal pass-through)
CYC X1 Gen 1 chain 11->63->38 gearing (updated hardened steel sprocket and sprag clutch)
Flipsky 75v 200A ESC bought from: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001407082959.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.73dd4c4dB5W6a7
Bluetooth module https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000077328832.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.73dd4c4dB5W6a7
Backpack with 150A capable 14s 20Ah battery, RC-lipos with BMS

I'm running it sensored at all rpms and still fine-tuning it (which is quick with bluetooth and the VESC Tool app, as long as you have an Android-phone), but the throttle response and pull is excellent already. Not sure how much power I put through it yet but easily over 4kW. Compared to my loved Tangent setup this is an improvement in all aspects, reliability, power delivery, control and motor/controller heat. It can crawl better in lower rpm but when I twist it like I mean it, the front wheel pops up and it just GOES.

The ultimate measurement - it creates more grin per watt than the Tangent did, probably because the gearbox isn't also a coffee grinder that hits 80 deg C regularly... This thing, I can just barely get it warm in this weather. Really amazing to me. The ESC peaks at 40-45 deg C, not bad at all.
Does 60km/h+ right now, not interested chasing top speeds, but any voltage increase or heavier gearing would take it into truly deadly speeds.

Just need to figure out a better placement for the ESC itself and also do something about water protecting it.

Edit: the only problem I have with it is the temperature measurement on the CYC. It is not separate from the hall sensors, so hooking that up to the CA confused the VESC about the hall signals, but it might work better if paired with the VESC temperature pin instead. Have not tried that. Anyway, seems unnecessary since I can't run this hard enough (yet) to get it hot enough for it to matter.

have you had to set the motor up manually. im trying to get this to run on a vesc 100/250 and having real trouble getting it to run without cogging

 

[knurf]

I thought I'd share the latest changes to my CYC X1 (gen 1) setup, since I finally have it running and behaving the way I like. I desperately needed something to replace my decommissioned 6kW Tangent setup and I'm very happy that I think I found it!

Setup:
Bike: Giant Glory 2011
Domino throttle
Cycle Analyst 3 3.14 FW (throttle signal pass-through)
CYC X1 Gen 1 chain 11->63->38 gearing (updated hardened steel sprocket and sprag clutch)
Flipsky 75v 200A ESC bought from: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001407082959.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.73dd4c4dB5W6a7
Bluetooth module https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000077328832.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.73dd4c4dB5W6a7
Backpack with 150A capable 14s 20Ah battery, RC-lipos with BMS

I'm running it sensored at all rpms and still fine-tuning it (which is quick with bluetooth and the VESC Tool app, as long as you have an Android-phone), but the throttle response and pull is excellent already. Not sure how much power I put through it yet but easily over 4kW. Compared to my loved Tangent setup this is an improvement in all aspects, reliability, power delivery, control and motor/controller heat. It can crawl better in lower rpm but when I twist it like I mean it, the front wheel pops up and it just GOES.

The ultimate measurement - it creates more grin per watt than the Tangent did, probably because the gearbox isn't also a coffee grinder that hits 80 deg C regularly... This thing, I can just barely get it warm in this weather. Really amazing to me. The ESC peaks at 40-45 deg C, not bad at all.
Does 60km/h+ right now, not interested chasing top speeds, but any voltage increase or heavier gearing would take it into truly deadly speeds.

Just need to figure out a better placement for the ESC itself and also do something about water protecting it.

Edit: the only problem I have with it is the temperature measurement on the CYC. It is not separate from the hall sensors, so hooking that up to the CA confused the VESC about the hall signals, but it might work better if paired with the VESC temperature pin instead. Have not tried that. Anyway, seems unnecessary since I can't run this hard enough (yet) to get it hot enough for it to matter.

have you had to set the motor up manually. im trying to get this to run on a vesc 100/250 and having real trouble getting it to run without cogging

I actually just switched over to a Trampaboards 100v250a ESC for this and reconfigured my battery for 90v. Big grin from ear to ear.

Thing is that you really just must run this motor with the sensors hooked up, it does not behave well without. Actually runs terrible as far as I had the patience to test it.

Once you get it properly sensored, wired, detected and configured - all the way - because there is a setting for it to stop running sensored once it gets up to speed, it should run great. The motor is peaking 6KW for me and revs like a hornetsnest...

Oh and when wiring the halls, do not connect the temp sensor. This messed up the signal for the halls for me. It doesn't heat up the motor anyway.

 

[raylo32]

Hey folks, I got my CYC X1 Gen 2 conversion done today. Using a 52V 12.5AH battery and right out of the box with no tweaks the bike rides awesome both on throttle and torque sensor. One silly question: what is this little cam buckle strap for?

 

[Ham]

To hold the motor unit up against the frame if the silver u clamp doesn't fit...or as a backup should it ever fail.

I use it as it makes lowering the motor for cleaning much easier rather than the clamps...

 

[raylo32]

Excellent, thanks. I was thinking to use it to strap down my battery that I have under the down tube on 3 rivnuts... but it is a couple inches too short. I have some velcro straps around if I can find them. I need to avoid bumps until then.

To hold the motor unit up against the frame if the silver u clamp doesn't fit...or as a backup should it ever fail.

I use it as it makes lowering the motor for cleaning much easier rather than the clamps...

 

[Ham]

Avoiding bumps may be wise full stop with your battery that close to the wheel... looks like any compression of the forks with contact the battery ...