got a criminal citation- e-bikes are unknown in FL court!
- Thread starter Matt Gruber
- Start date
Matt Gruber
1 MW
good progress.
i took it to local DMV.
Office mgr 1st said it looks like an illegal dirt bike.
i said e-bike under 316.003-2.
she: does it move on human power?
YES IT DOES.
her: then it would be an e-bike.
(this is significant imo, she has experience, and did NOT ask about pedals)
me: can i have a statement for the court
her
NO, it's up to the judge.
5-21-07 Sent 2 pics + letter to SA asking her to drop
i took it to local DMV.
Office mgr 1st said it looks like an illegal dirt bike.
i said e-bike under 316.003-2.
she: does it move on human power?
YES IT DOES.
her: then it would be an e-bike.
(this is significant imo, she has experience, and did NOT ask about pedals)
me: can i have a statement for the court
her
NO, it's up to the judge.
5-21-07 Sent 2 pics + letter to SA asking her to drop
Matt Gruber
1 MW
so a lady jogs by
pushing a 3 wheel baby stroller
NO PEDALS of course
Is it street legal?
Is this solid present day evidence that pedals are not always used?
There is no "baby stroller" law, so can we assume it is classified as a bike?
opinions?
pushing a 3 wheel baby stroller
NO PEDALS of course
Is it street legal?
Is this solid present day evidence that pedals are not always used?
There is no "baby stroller" law, so can we assume it is classified as a bike?
opinions?
Ypedal
100 TW
Remove the motor and batteries from your rig and call it a stroller if you want, but personally... i don't think that argument will get you very far.. 
xyster
10 MW
Perhaps, Gruber, you should get rolling with your electric beach chair idea.
You remember those cartoons where the hunter stalks the prey by hiding in a bush, then moving the bush when the prey isn't looking, setting it down again in a new place each time....? Do that with your beach chair. Get it all decked out with mirrors or cameras; roll along until you see what might be a cop, then stop and pretend you're just kicking-back in some business's outdoor lounge chair.
You remember those cartoons where the hunter stalks the prey by hiding in a bush, then moving the bush when the prey isn't looking, setting it down again in a new place each time....? Do that with your beach chair. Get it all decked out with mirrors or cameras; roll along until you see what might be a cop, then stop and pretend you're just kicking-back in some business's outdoor lounge chair.
Matt Gruber
1 MW
stroller seat is too low
so it is illegal except on sidewalk
cops will get her soon :lol:
so it is illegal except on sidewalk
cops will get her soon :lol:
Matt Gruber
1 MW
I have little chance of winning.
The FL Drivers Handbook lists all street legal vehicles including bicycles, and e-bikes ARE NOT listed.(thanks vtach)
.
I'd assume FL is happy to take federal funds for bike paths, and wrote 316.003-2 to GET THE $$$$,
BUT in practice does NOT allow e-bikes. Until the handbook lists e-bikes, my e-bikes will likely stay in storage.
Hopefully, someday the PRACTICE will catch up to the law.
They fear a depression if e-bikes catch on in a big way.
on a new car they collect $1200-2500 in sales tax. buy an e-bike? $20 in tax, no gas tax no tag tax, no speeding tickets(tax). cars are a huge % of the economy, they need the $$$$
The FL Drivers Handbook lists all street legal vehicles including bicycles, and e-bikes ARE NOT listed.(thanks vtach)
.
I'd assume FL is happy to take federal funds for bike paths, and wrote 316.003-2 to GET THE $$$$,
BUT in practice does NOT allow e-bikes. Until the handbook lists e-bikes, my e-bikes will likely stay in storage.
Hopefully, someday the PRACTICE will catch up to the law.
They fear a depression if e-bikes catch on in a big way.
on a new car they collect $1200-2500 in sales tax. buy an e-bike? $20 in tax, no gas tax no tag tax, no speeding tickets(tax). cars are a huge % of the economy, they need the $$$$
Lock
100 MW
Matt, I feel for you man...
I can't get into specifics with you about the minutiae of FLA laws... I'm in another jurisdiction. Except to say, "don't go there" re the lady and baby stroller
I can say, that I have been riding an illegal EV in my town for six years and well over 10,000km, have had a couple of dozen roadside conversations with police officers in this time, and have never been given a ticket.
For many reasons I think.
I have never been stopped because an officer thought I was driving in any reckless manner.
I surf the sidewalks, and am lost from view much of the time, behind parked cars etc etc.
I am just a grey-haired, middle-aged combat accountant, usually headed too or from client offices, and not some young person, where youth is sometimes seen as something easier to pick on, and more suspect.
The police are taught the rules at police college, but as the years go by, they forget the details concerning vehicles they are unfamiliar with. Most are very unsure of the laws in the area regarding my vehicle.
The kick scoot is a tiny vehicle, and under a long coat, actually disappears from view from many angles and at a glance. The motor/chain makes only a little noise, and whatever that is is completely lost in the ambient of surrounding traffic - no noise = no motor, right?
I can honestly tell them of the years and distances I have been riding this vehicle, and the many conversations I have had with police, and that I have never been given a ticket. I suspect this gives them pause to wonder what their fellow officers are thinking... kind of a subtle peer pressure.
I suspect too that with our court systems overloaded with cases involving weapons and drugs and violence, that throwing me into that mix might cause any judge to take a dim view of the officers diligence <smile>
I usually mention in these conversations somewhere, that my vehicle doesn't go as fast as a pedal bike, and that its motor is rated at a power equivalent to a few light bulbs. Much less than any home hair dryer or coffee maker.
So the process in these conversations is never to contradict the officer, or to imply directly that their knowledge of the law is flawed. Whether *they* know it or not, *I* know that it *is* illegal. But that this is *only* because the vehicle is propelled by kick and not by pedal, which I find a pretty fine distinction, considering that the absence of seat and pedals etc makes for a vehicle that is much safer than the Victorian pedal bike.
IMHO
And cops are people too. Like firemen, their jobs are 95% boredom and 5% terror. They have to deal every day with a lot of idiots, some dangerous and many abusive. So I always defer to their uniforms, and try and give them a break - they usually respond to respect, and being treated as folks.
I don't mean to imply in any of this that you may have brought any misfortune upon yourself by your attitude or behaviour in your case. I just wish to add these words to this thread for other readers.
In fact I am encouraging anyone reading this stuff to go ahead and break their laws regarding power-assist - in a safe manner - where these laws need to be "broken"...
We accept so many things today in society that once were banned.
In the sport of pedal bicycle racing, at different times and in different places, the rules for competition have excluded things like wheels that are not made of wood, bikes using derailleurs, or any bike that was not a diamond frame...
If the world is concerned about issues like energy consumption (waste) and pollution and global warming and road congestion and obesity and the isolation of suburban youth and limited parking, then power-assist is a hands-down winner, as just one tool for fighting these problems by helping to make two wheels a more attractive option.
The truth is, that the littlest EVs are the safest motorized vehicles on the planet today - for everyone else on the pavements around them, on foot or on wheels. Most laws are flawed, because their makers can never see clearly what the future will bring.
So, anyway Matt, hope you don't give up the fight.
Regards
Lock
ps... Our Provincial Minister of Transport came to visit last month, and we had a nice conversation about (women in politics and) power-assist. Last fall the Province finally amended things to permit electric power assist - with pedals...
I admitted to the Minister that I had been riding power-assist for many years now - without getting into the details about pedals <wink> - and she said she *forgave* me... Think that would mean anything to a Judge?
I must write her a thank you note, and see if I can get *that* in writing!
I can't get into specifics with you about the minutiae of FLA laws... I'm in another jurisdiction. Except to say, "don't go there" re the lady and baby stroller
I can say, that I have been riding an illegal EV in my town for six years and well over 10,000km, have had a couple of dozen roadside conversations with police officers in this time, and have never been given a ticket.
For many reasons I think.
I have never been stopped because an officer thought I was driving in any reckless manner.
I surf the sidewalks, and am lost from view much of the time, behind parked cars etc etc.
I am just a grey-haired, middle-aged combat accountant, usually headed too or from client offices, and not some young person, where youth is sometimes seen as something easier to pick on, and more suspect.
The police are taught the rules at police college, but as the years go by, they forget the details concerning vehicles they are unfamiliar with. Most are very unsure of the laws in the area regarding my vehicle.
The kick scoot is a tiny vehicle, and under a long coat, actually disappears from view from many angles and at a glance. The motor/chain makes only a little noise, and whatever that is is completely lost in the ambient of surrounding traffic - no noise = no motor, right?
I can honestly tell them of the years and distances I have been riding this vehicle, and the many conversations I have had with police, and that I have never been given a ticket. I suspect this gives them pause to wonder what their fellow officers are thinking... kind of a subtle peer pressure.
I suspect too that with our court systems overloaded with cases involving weapons and drugs and violence, that throwing me into that mix might cause any judge to take a dim view of the officers diligence <smile>
I usually mention in these conversations somewhere, that my vehicle doesn't go as fast as a pedal bike, and that its motor is rated at a power equivalent to a few light bulbs. Much less than any home hair dryer or coffee maker.
So the process in these conversations is never to contradict the officer, or to imply directly that their knowledge of the law is flawed. Whether *they* know it or not, *I* know that it *is* illegal. But that this is *only* because the vehicle is propelled by kick and not by pedal, which I find a pretty fine distinction, considering that the absence of seat and pedals etc makes for a vehicle that is much safer than the Victorian pedal bike.
IMHO
And cops are people too. Like firemen, their jobs are 95% boredom and 5% terror. They have to deal every day with a lot of idiots, some dangerous and many abusive. So I always defer to their uniforms, and try and give them a break - they usually respond to respect, and being treated as folks.
I don't mean to imply in any of this that you may have brought any misfortune upon yourself by your attitude or behaviour in your case. I just wish to add these words to this thread for other readers.
In fact I am encouraging anyone reading this stuff to go ahead and break their laws regarding power-assist - in a safe manner - where these laws need to be "broken"...
We accept so many things today in society that once were banned.
In the sport of pedal bicycle racing, at different times and in different places, the rules for competition have excluded things like wheels that are not made of wood, bikes using derailleurs, or any bike that was not a diamond frame...
If the world is concerned about issues like energy consumption (waste) and pollution and global warming and road congestion and obesity and the isolation of suburban youth and limited parking, then power-assist is a hands-down winner, as just one tool for fighting these problems by helping to make two wheels a more attractive option.
The truth is, that the littlest EVs are the safest motorized vehicles on the planet today - for everyone else on the pavements around them, on foot or on wheels. Most laws are flawed, because their makers can never see clearly what the future will bring.
So, anyway Matt, hope you don't give up the fight.
Regards
Lock
ps... Our Provincial Minister of Transport came to visit last month, and we had a nice conversation about (women in politics and) power-assist. Last fall the Province finally amended things to permit electric power assist - with pedals...
I admitted to the Minister that I had been riding power-assist for many years now - without getting into the details about pedals <wink> - and she said she *forgave* me... Think that would mean anything to a Judge?
I must write her a thank you note, and see if I can get *that* in writing!
Matt Gruber
1 MW
the Chief sent over 2 sarges to discuss my letter.
Their position is, despite nothing in the law, everyone knows bicycles ALL have pedals. I showed 2 pics (thanks Lesss) no pedals, they said they are not bikes under their opinion.
So at least i know what they will likely say at trial.
VERY helpful as i learned the e-bike limit is now 10mph! So showing the judge the box "up to 15mph" could have made me lose on "too fast" grounds. Really guys, even winning, 10 mph would be a hollow victory, but i will still try my best to win.
Their position is, despite nothing in the law, everyone knows bicycles ALL have pedals. I showed 2 pics (thanks Lesss) no pedals, they said they are not bikes under their opinion.
So at least i know what they will likely say at trial.
VERY helpful as i learned the e-bike limit is now 10mph! So showing the judge the box "up to 15mph" could have made me lose on "too fast" grounds. Really guys, even winning, 10 mph would be a hollow victory, but i will still try my best to win.
Lessss
1 MW
Go to the library and pull old newspaper advertisments on the "hobby horse" style bicycles. "Your honor here are advertisments clearly showing they are considered bicycles. They predate mechanically assisted chain and crank shaft bicycles."
I'd see if you can change the throttle on your bike to limit ot to 10 MPH and then invite the judge to ride it up an incline to demonstrate how ridiculously SLOW 10 mph really is. After all an electric bicycle is gonna be faster than an unassisted bicycle right? So does that mean a new speed limit on bicycles has been set at 10 regardless of electrically assisted or not?? I think there are clear grounds to challenge that in court. In fact invite an olympic race walker to show in court and have the judge try to keep up on you r 10 mph limited bike with him.
The average walking pace is 3.5 mph. That takes the pace of incredibly fat people and cripples into account. The average of fit people is a little above 4mph. Speed walkers are around 5.5 mph. Olympic racewalking is 9mph.
Average jogging is 7mph, Olympic runners 15 Mph. The fact that FL electric bicycles are being limited to below what a human can self propel is rediculous.
Since it has been traditional that regular bicycles are only limited to the posted speed limit the fact that a special speed restriction is being imposed on a specific mode of transportation is clearly challengable. they can't use the precedant of NEV speed limits as precedant as NEVS would not be allowed on the road at normal speeds, it is the restricted limit that allowed them on the roads.
I'd contact your local bicycling clubs and alert them to this new 10mph limit and how it will be used as a precedant to limit non electric bicycles.
Something clearly stinks in the corruption category with your legislators here.
I'd see if you can change the throttle on your bike to limit ot to 10 MPH and then invite the judge to ride it up an incline to demonstrate how ridiculously SLOW 10 mph really is. After all an electric bicycle is gonna be faster than an unassisted bicycle right? So does that mean a new speed limit on bicycles has been set at 10 regardless of electrically assisted or not?? I think there are clear grounds to challenge that in court. In fact invite an olympic race walker to show in court and have the judge try to keep up on you r 10 mph limited bike with him.
The average walking pace is 3.5 mph. That takes the pace of incredibly fat people and cripples into account. The average of fit people is a little above 4mph. Speed walkers are around 5.5 mph. Olympic racewalking is 9mph.
Average jogging is 7mph, Olympic runners 15 Mph. The fact that FL electric bicycles are being limited to below what a human can self propel is rediculous.
Since it has been traditional that regular bicycles are only limited to the posted speed limit the fact that a special speed restriction is being imposed on a specific mode of transportation is clearly challengable. they can't use the precedant of NEV speed limits as precedant as NEVS would not be allowed on the road at normal speeds, it is the restricted limit that allowed them on the roads.
I'd contact your local bicycling clubs and alert them to this new 10mph limit and how it will be used as a precedant to limit non electric bicycles.
Something clearly stinks in the corruption category with your legislators here.
Matt Gruber said:
Do... Not... Believe... Cops!
They lie every time they breathe.
It doesn't matter what everyone 'knows'.
They are only giving you their opinion & what they wish the situation is.
It's what the law sez that matters.
And ulitimately the judges interpretaion of what the law sez.
You'd be surprised how many judges make rulings that really piss off the cops.
Sending not one but two cops, & sargents yet, tells me that their putting a front of intimidation as a bluff, hoping you'll back off.
Perhaps they realize they're on shaky legal ground.
They freely admitted to you that there's 'nothing in the law' regarding pedals.
They're sworn to uphold the law, not vapourlaw.
Their authority only extends to that which is written down.
Take them to the 'matt', even if at best it's a hollow victory.
If you can afford the time & don't have the expense of a lawyer by going it alone it will be well worth the education if nothing else.
Matt Gruber
1 MW
Correction: it was 1 sarge and the Commander.
Sat. I sent letter #2 to the Chief.
Briefly i complained about 4 cops with differing opinions
#1. i need pedals
#2. pedals make it a moped=tag
#3. it is a scooter
#4. it looks like a motorcycle=tag
I asked the chief to have his officers apply UNIFORM DEFINITIONS as described by state lawmakers under 316.003 These definitions makes it a legal bike. (letter was longer, but u get the idea)
Sat. I sent letter #2 to the Chief.
Briefly i complained about 4 cops with differing opinions
#1. i need pedals
#2. pedals make it a moped=tag
#3. it is a scooter
#4. it looks like a motorcycle=tag
I asked the chief to have his officers apply UNIFORM DEFINITIONS as described by state lawmakers under 316.003 These definitions makes it a legal bike. (letter was longer, but u get the idea)
Matt Gruber
1 MW
i plan to file a MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGEMENT(but i'm not sure of the timing-before arraignment?or only if it goes to trial?)
Human Power means NO horses or farm animals. Police need to pass an ordinance if they want to require specific equipment.
.
.
(When horses were outlawed people tried to hitch them to a bike and say it was legal as a bike is legal).
Human Power means NO horses or farm animals. Police need to pass an ordinance if they want to require specific equipment.
.
.
(When horses were outlawed people tried to hitch them to a bike and say it was legal as a bike is legal).
Matt Gruber
1 MW
good Q!
i'll ask cop that in court.
i hope they are legal, but i kind of doubt it.
Now, a leashed dog, they are legal for sure.
.
i've figured how to cross examine the cop, so i no longer intend to ask them to drop the case.
should be fun! :lol:
i will ask about every design detail i can think of, to get a court record.
i'll ask cop that in court.
i hope they are legal, but i kind of doubt it.
Now, a leashed dog, they are legal for sure.
.
i've figured how to cross examine the cop, so i no longer intend to ask them to drop the case.
should be fun! :lol:
i will ask about every design detail i can think of, to get a court record.
Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh said:
Agree, your letters and calls are causing them to do too much paperwork. They`ll try to bluff etc
Ask for a transcript of the last meeting between you and the sgt et al. Then ask for any further contemporaneous notes taken at the time of the ticket noting your explanation. Do the two match? You might exploit the inconsistencies between the officers and wait for a "killer" contradiction.
I`d personally use the phrase "not in the public interest" lots and point out the waste and damage to the environment of having them drive to you when they could have come on an ebike..pedals or not
Meaning #2: a lever that is operated with the foot
Synonyms: treadle, foot pedal, foot lever (do you have a foot operated kickstand?) that`s a foot operated lever and is part of the process of moving off.
Hey, argue it long enough and the original cop might retire!
safe
1 GW
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2006
- Messages
- 5,681
* * * Local News Story * * *
Matt Gruber was ticketed for riding his electric bike. In this world of rising gas prices and increasing world tensions Matt Gruber had felt that it was his personal obligation to do his best to find alternative modes of transportation in order reduce the need for fossil fuels. But here in our town the police have been cracking down on guys like Matt and so we have to wonder what message that is sending about our committment to our future.
Stay tuned for a special 10 o'clock news report about our local hero and how he's fighting a system that has run amok:
See our story about the electric vehicle at 10...
Seriously... go to your local news... they love to make stories and it might be an otherwise slow news day. (little segments like this can be played whenever there is no big world news) Spend a little time making sure you look appealing, hair cut appropriately, dress well, whatever else you can do to project a positive image.
Get your 15 minutes of fame.... :wink:
And you need to think up some really catchy lines too. Make it a segment that people watch and they go "wow" my brain just had a thought and it felt pretty good. Hmmmmmmmm.....
Have an attitude that you want to change the world for the better...
Be a "change maker"...
Matt Gruber was ticketed for riding his electric bike. In this world of rising gas prices and increasing world tensions Matt Gruber had felt that it was his personal obligation to do his best to find alternative modes of transportation in order reduce the need for fossil fuels. But here in our town the police have been cracking down on guys like Matt and so we have to wonder what message that is sending about our committment to our future.
Stay tuned for a special 10 o'clock news report about our local hero and how he's fighting a system that has run amok:
See our story about the electric vehicle at 10...
Seriously... go to your local news... they love to make stories and it might be an otherwise slow news day. (little segments like this can be played whenever there is no big world news) Spend a little time making sure you look appealing, hair cut appropriately, dress well, whatever else you can do to project a positive image.
Get your 15 minutes of fame.... :wink:
And you need to think up some really catchy lines too. Make it a segment that people watch and they go "wow" my brain just had a thought and it felt pretty good. Hmmmmmmmm.....
Have an attitude that you want to change the world for the better...
Be a "change maker"...
Yeah good idea. Make it political! Try and get a pardon from the state governor.. even ask for a pardon before the court case because you are being singled out by bureaucrats refusing to adapt to climate change nla bla blah . That would make the news. What town are you in?
knightmb
100 kW
That's how I got on the news. They ran a story on high gas prices, I e-mailed one of the reporters about my electric bike and they wanted to do a story the next week. Unfortunately, the media likes to put their own spin on things. If you watch my news clip, they make it sound like I "invented" e-bikes or somethingsafe said:Seriously... go to your local news... they love to make stories and it might be an otherwise slow news day. (little segments like this can be played whenever there is no big world news) Spend a little time making sure you look appealing, hair cut appropriately, dress well, whatever else you can do to project a positive image.
Get your 15 minutes of fame.... :wink:
And you need to think up some really catchy lines too. Make it a segment that people watch and they go "wow" my brain just had a thought and it felt pretty good. Hmmmmmmmm.....
Have an attitude that you want to change the world for the better...
Be a "change maker"...
But on the bright side, it got the word out and thousands of e-mails poured in about how to build a similar bike. I think that was a good year for merchants to be selling crystalyte and WE motors and kits
knightmb
100 kW
andrewelectricbike1 said:
Another place would be to try Digg or Slashdot. If you can get the online community to run a story, it would be across the world then. Quite the spotlight that can put some political pressure on your local government.
safe
1 GW
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2006
- Messages
- 5,681
knightmb said:That's how I got on the news. They ran a story on high gas prices, I e-mailed one of the reporters about my electric bike and they wanted to do a story the next week. Unfortunately, the media likes to put their own spin on things. If you watch my news clip, they make it sound like I "invented" e-bikes or something
When I was 16 years old I briefly held the BMX record for the longest bicycle jump at 29'. It was in response to a story that appeared in the newspaper about a kid in Texas that set the record at 25'. Within weeks there were others that followed that took it even further and I sort of lost track of it. The story that appeared in my city newspaper focused on the California verses Texas "theme" (I grew up in California) and it didn't bother me that they took it in their own direction.
The main thing is to provide the "hooks" that the newspaper people can latch onto. The more "hooks" (catchy phrases, ideas) that you can throw out there the more they will like the story.
It's very possible that a local news channel will send their news team out there to videotape you (Matt Gruber) and so be prepared with plenty of "sound bites" that they can work into the story.
Like in the movie "The Devils Advocate".... you could be a "star". :wink:
Just have fun with it... the world can be surreal sometimes and the best answer is to just play along with it all...
perhaps you should have pedal/s attached when they roll the cameras
Come on Matt what town is it? we`ll try and spread the word, blitz/jog the press, the council with emails and start rocking the boat.. when is the court date?
Andrew
UK
Come on Matt what town is it? we`ll try and spread the word, blitz/jog the press, the council with emails and start rocking the boat.. when is the court date?
Andrew
UK
Matt Gruber
1 MW
Thanks for the support, guys!
Let's wait for my arraignment july 6.
As i wrote to the state attorney, maybe they will drop it then.
i read court costs them $2300/day.
am i worth it?
Let's wait for my arraignment july 6.
As i wrote to the state attorney, maybe they will drop it then.
i read court costs them $2300/day.
am i worth it?
Matt Gruber
1 MW
criminal arraignment next friday!
if they don't drop it,
i will ask for a jury trial!
this is not traffic court
it is CIRCUIT COURT.
.
ENJOY your bikes!
i am forced to drive around in a Corvette.
if they don't drop it,
i will ask for a jury trial!
this is not traffic court
it is CIRCUIT COURT.
.
ENJOY your bikes!
i am forced to drive around in a Corvette.
Good luck Matt.
Let's hope it's a short circuit court, and you are allowed to get back on the road with your PSEV.
Let's hope it's a short circuit court, and you are allowed to get back on the road with your PSEV.
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