Graphene, possible non-battery uses in bicycles?

[rborger73]

For the last time.. .Consumers are not going to want, nor have the ability, and time to adjust their ebike wheels. When you go from the consumer being a hobbyist, to the mainstream consumer market, spoke wheels will start to go away, just like they have in every other industry involving a wheel...

You keep saying it like it's going to become true, but bicycles have had 150 plus years to illustrate your concept, and... no. Everybody who buys a bike gets wire wheels, to the nearest approximation. And they make it work, better than they would with cast nylon wheels or cast aluminum wheels or imaginary cast wheels made of graphene and unicorn horn. Tons of motorcycles have wire wheels and don't display any more problems than similar motos with mag wheels.

Other vehicles have adopted one-piece wheels for various reasons that don't apply to us: They're a little cheaper, they work well with very wide tires on relatively small diameter wheels, and designers of those vehicles fundamentally don't care about efficiency or performance at a fixed power. They just add more power (and pollution, and noise, and death count). Despite what you keep saying, this latter bit is not characteristic of e-bikers.

Graphene discovered in 2004 or so. Already being used in bike tires and rims. Ebikes have only become popular in the last 7 or 8 years. They are just in the last 3 years really getting attention of the U.S. Your refusal to look into the advances in graphene just makes you look stupid. Motorcycle rims are purpose built when they use spoke, to handle forces put upon them. Ebike wheels currently are mostly normal bike rims with motors laced in. Motorcycle wheels have way more spokes..

https://www.google.com/search?q=motorcycle+spoke+wheels&biw=1067&bih=536&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiomoDj8KPSAhUBRCYKHdFbBKoQ_AUIzgEoAQ

I seriously can't believe the stupidity that it takes to perpetuate the idiocy that ebikes will use spoke wheels. You are stuck on hobbyist consumers. Ebikes are going into the mainstream consumer realm now. How much of your brain did your head animal manage to eat before you yanked it off? :lol:

 

[DRMousseau]

Even with current manufacturing, metal, synthetic, and carbon technologies, a QUALITY purpose built e-bike (or bicycle) HAS, and will likely continue to have typical spokes regardless of all cost and expense!!! Even with unlimited financial backing and the latest technologies available for professional use of a one-off special purpose built wheel,... it's still gonna be built with typical spoke design, and maybe spokes of exotic materials. Well,... until spokes of every kind are unneeded!

AND the disposable or low cost consumer products,... already see an influx of cast and synthetics. Carbon, polys, metals, alloys, cast, moulded or extruded,... it's what today's "typical consumer" wants in everything today, and what the industry can reasonably produce within it's liability of safety to meet that market. No part repair, replacement or adjustment,... at the most, jus a quick easy OEM replacement assembly or unit to snap in, and even that's an inconvenience. Newer material technology WILL surely see increasing use as they become economically available for use in this manner.

Folks want no added labor time or added part costs,.... no maintenance costs or personal time involvement, and of course, easy to use. And they'll pay more if these needs are met, REGARDLES of any consequences! EV's are gaining in acceptance NOT because of fuel or "perceived" ecological, or even energy efficiencies,... but because of simplicity of use by the majority consumer to which the manufactures can appeal to. Heck, it's an inconvenience to plug in your car or bike for many,... AND THEN, have to wait for a charge?!?! UGH! Who has time for a loose spoke or cracked casting??? Jus get another,... our trash and waste is buried, and no one sees it. Graphene products might even reduce some waste,... won't rot, rust or decompose much, should last forever, if we can use 'em that long.

Oh CRAP!!! Motor died in my graphene wheel unit,.... jus get another wheel unit. Right? Oh and tire,... no sense in messin' with that trouble. A new wheel/motor unit WITH tire! :wink:

 

[Chalo]

How many milligrams of graphene do today's "graphene" tires and rims contain? Does it do them as much good as it would to, say, gold plate them? Would it matter to you one way or the other? How you think magic pixie dust is somehow of more advantage than a pretensioned structure is baffling, but illustrative.

Anyway, you personally may have had all kinds of trouble with your wire spoked wheels, but that's not intrinsic to wire wheels. If the wheels have spokes that aren't too thick, and if they've been built tight enough and stress relieved, then the only reason they go out of true is because the rim got bent. If the rim of a mag wheel gets bent, then what? You can't just true it like you can with a wire wheel. So you have to replace it.

And sure, a wire wheel can be poorly made. So can a mag wheel. But a poorly made wire wheel can sometimes be fixed by the end user. But the mag? Gotta replace it. Maybe you can get a better one and maybe you can't.

With a wire wheel, if you want a stronger rim or a wider rim or a different diameter, you just lace one on. With a mag, you replace the whole thing-- if you can even get the different version you're looking for. I know when I bent the front cast wheel on my motorcycle, I didn't have the option of fitting a stronger version. There was just the one kind of wheel that would fit.

If you knew how much die casting tooling costs, I think you'd understand that having a cast rim and spoke unit for each wheel diameter and rim width and every different hub motor isn't just expensive and difficult. It's simply not going to happen. Even if e-bikes begin to sell in car-like or bicycle-like numbers, a move to cast wheels would mean limited tire choices and increased cost, as the expense of all the different wheel tooling gets rolled into the finished products. It's the same reason you can't have your favorite tire in any size you want, but only in the sizes the manufacturer decided would pay off the molds. And for the same reason that low volume specialty tires cost several times as much as mass market tires, low volume single application cast e-bike wheels would cost much more than spokes and rims that benefit from economy of scale.

 

[rborger73]

The graphene ignorance continues in perpetuity.. It isn't a plating.. Airplanes will always use bike parts too. Is what they said a few weeks after the Wright brothers flew...

For those that will actually watch and pay attention to what the video shows them..

[youtube]FaKl3OymFy4[/youtube]


Grips better, less rolling resistance, and possibly the fastest tire on the market.. But Graphene will never to be more than some "unicorn".. I'm just embarrassed for you dude.

[youtube]GMJ5wD13FBk[/youtube]


If you go to about 2:00 minute mark they talk about how ebikes are going to over take pedal bikes..

Already over 50% of the market in the Netherlands. 57% of all bike sales. Wheel spokes will go away..

[youtube]tJEEX72H1Jc[/youtube]



Cracks me up when someone thinks a product that the materials to make it are super cheap, and it will be used in nearly every single industry in the country, is going to remain a "Unicorn" material, even though it's already clearly being used. I just can't even.. lol :lol:

 

[rborger73]

As far as wheels not needing trued often, or spokes not coming loose... well.. .

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=%22loose++spokes%22++

 

[markz]

Chalo always comes up with good info.

Leave him to ponder spokeless wheels. By him, I meant not Chalo, but whomever else day dreams of spokeless wheels.

 

[rborger73]

Chalo always comes up with good info.

Leave him to ponder spokeless wheels.

You must read different posts than I do that Chalo writes.. :lol:

 

[MadRhino]

I have very different opinions with Chalo sometimes, maybe I should say "often". :wink:

Yet, about wheels we agree. Tensile structure of spoked wheel is better for ebike and most motorcycles. The ridgidity of cast or composites is good on massive wheels, riding fair surfaces. Big racing motorcycles are doing better on big ridgid wheels, but even on a heavy Harley cruiser I choose a simple 40 spoke wheel no contest.

You haven't broke any cast wheels yet, obviously. I don't wish anyone to, because it is a trip ending situation with no solution just as bad as frying a motor. That is why I say be careful: Cast wheels for ebikes are good when they are small diameter with big tires, on fair surface only.

 

[rborger73]

I simply disagree. I'm guessing we'll see light aluminum rims for ebikes, covered with Carbon Fiber Graphene composites. Rims that have a large open hole to fit a large motor, then adapters to fit smaller motors. Spoke isn't the future. It just isn't. Non hobbyist consumers are not going to want or be able to constantly adjust their spokes.

 

[markz]

No no no
This is the future

http://jalopnik.com/5139465/hubless-monster-motorcycle-rolls-without-spokes
http://www.motorcycleforums.net/forum/cruisers/9602-spokes-vs-cast-wheels.html


http://www.fasterandfaster.net/2007/09/hubless-wheels-does-wheel-really-need.html

:lol:

Get your fill, I didnt bother to read it
http://www.motorcycleforums.net/forum/cruisers/9602-spokes-vs-cast-wheels.html
http://www.bikeforums.net/folding-bikes/680398-hubless-spokeless-bicycle-wheel.html
http://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-mechanics/207632-spokeless-wheels-2.html

 

[rborger73]

Ya lots of room for a hub motor in a hubless rim.... :lol:

 

[MadRhino]

Designers have to design.
Every now and then a designer does design a stupid innovation with aesthetics in mind and no logic to back it up. They soon prove to be sh*t, but it doesn't keep dreamers from trying again and again anyway.

Some people just can't accept that expansive beautiful sh* t is still sh*t, like others can't see that cheap sh*t is making only more sh*t.

 

[rborger73]

Ok.. graphene is currently getting ready to be infused into nearly every industry in the world.. Graphite is the cheapest most plentiful substance on the planet. The only expensive part is the process right now. In the VERY near future it won't be expensive anymore, and there are already a bunch of different techniques to make it in mass quantity. Already a bike frame produced with it, already tires and rims being produced and SOLD with it. You people hung up on this "expensive" shit, are NOT PAYING ATTENTION... It's already being used in consumer available batteries. It is the best super conductor available. It is the strongest substance on the planet. The demand will be huge for it, so the process absolutely is going to change and advance. Feet draggers... .my god..

 

[MadRhino]

I was talking about hubless wheels

Then, about graphene. Powders are used as a filling agent in resins, and the resin is used to bond/assemble fibers. The fibers are making the strength properties, in their type and arrangement for specific purposes. There are no graphene fibers to assemble yet, only small particles that are replacing (part of) the other heavier filling agents. Its advantage is weight right now, and giving some better abrasion resistance to the resin. Real strength improvement from graphene, will happen only when they can produce long fibers. For our ebike wheels, it will not do much until it can be used as a part of tensile wheels. Ridgid composite wheels will still need to be massive, or small diameter, to be any good and only on fair surfaces.

As a conductive material, it does offer improvement to battery technology by lower resistance, but those who are marketting gaphene batteries are not making a revolution. They add graphene powder to their (already) low resistance batteries in order to project the image of superior tech and quality, more for the image than the slightly lower resistance of the battery.

Yet, it does have a future in battery technology, as in many other applications. I said future, don't be fooled thinking that the word graphene on any product they sell you today, has much more advantage than a higher price.

 

[rborger73]

[moderator edit: this discussion was split off from this thread...https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=86378]

I'm well aware of what you can do with graphene.. today.. Maybe you ought to make yourself more aware, and stop repeating the same thing over and over.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1369702115002084

http://news.mit.edu/2014/new-way-make-sheets-graphene-0523

 

[Chalo]

When you start linking to Amazon or Alibaba rather than science websites, I think some of us will be able to take your fantasies more seriously.

What you have available to play with today is molecular sized razor blades that are way better and working their way into and damaging living tissue that has no natural defense against them, than it is at doing anything else. It makes asbestos seem harmlessly crude.

This stuff is manufactured in nano-dandruff flakes one atom thick. Can you not grasp how many orders of magnitude away from useful that is? How much for a kilogram of spun fiber, dude?

 

[rborger73]

Seriously whatever dude. lol Yes, those silly sites like MIT......

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=graphene

https://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=&SearchText=graphene

 

[rborger73]

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Thermal-conductive-flexible-graphene-graphite-sheet_60363004801.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0.UQnINJ&s=p

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Thermal-conductive-flexible-graphene-graphite-sheet_60236848574.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0.UQnINJ

 

[rborger73]

Here you can buy your own Graphene producing mill even...

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/LNPE-High-Capacity-Graphene-Ultrafine-Powder_60515812147.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0.UQnINJ&s=p

 

[rborger73]

3d printer Graphene filament? Sure.. 55 buck for 100g

http://www.blackmagic3d.com/Conductive-p/grphn-pla.htm

Properties

Volume Resistivity: 0.6 ohm-cm
Color: Black
Diameter: 1.75 mm or 3.00 mm
Size: 100 grams
Graphene-enhanced for superior conductivity and improved mechanical properties
PLA-based

Electrical Conductivity

Our Conductive Graphene Filament offers a volume resistivity of 0.6 ohm-cm. Volume resistivity is the measure of a material’s resistance to electricity within a cubic centimeter of material. In order to determine if the material will work for your project, you will have to keep in mind that the resistivity will change depending upon your print. It is suggested that our filament can be used for the applications below.

High Strength

Conductive Graphene Filament may also be used for applications which require superior strength to ABS and PLA.

 

[rborger73]

But, sure.. spoke wheels are the future...

 

[rborger73]

As far as health risks, any powder may be possibly inhaled, that doesn't mean it's likely, or that those particles will remain in the lungs.

"Andrew Maynard, Director of the Risk Science Center at the University of Michigan is not entirely convinced that there is an issue. “Donaldson's work certainly demonstrates the potential for graphene flakes to present a health risk if they are able to be inhaled and enter the lungs, or penetrate to the region surrounding the lungs. But that is a big ‘if’,” he told Materials Today. Pharyngeal aspiration delivers particles – or platelets flakes – to the lungs within liquid droplets and the droplets determine where the material is deposited. “This allows early experimentation on what could occur if the material could enter the lungs under handling and use,” Maynard adds. “But it doesn't provide information on the plausibility of exposure occurring.” We do not yet know whether graphene flakes can become airborne and inhaled in a form that is dangerous during use.” Questions concerning health risks – while important – remain speculative,” Maynard says."

http://www.materialstoday.com/carbon/articles/s1369702112701013/

 

[DRMousseau]

Most certainly graphene will become a part of the latest technologies available to us today,....
http://www.rouesartisanales.com/page/3?s=wheel+stiffness
...just as current ceramic, carbon, polymer (Kevlar), and other technologies have. And surely you'll find all these commonly and reasonably available in your local WalMart's soon! Right???

Graphene WILL have it's place in superiority to much of the above,... tires for example, and bullet proof t-shirts!!!! No more wire beads, heavy tire belts or bulky Kevlar vests!!!! Oh, and WHEELS!!! Everything to meet the affordable needs of todays urban rider!!! Imagine,... no more exploding batteries!!!

I'm thinkin' it's place will be probably be found more inside OTHER unseen technologies.

 

[rborger73]

All these things are available at walmart actually...

"ceramic, carbon, polymer, Kevlar"

. already Graphene tires, and graphene rims.. Literally every industry on the planet right now is chomping at the bit while mass production catches up with demand. Inevitable. 8)

 

[MadRhino]

Carpe diem. You are getting carried on, way too far away from the actual question.

In the future, everything is possible. There are many possible ways to make a tensile wheel better than spokes, and the future will tell. Future might even succeed making a ridgid wheel light and strong enough to be a good choice for our size of bikes. For what we know of it, the future might as well make the wheel itself obsolete.

If I ask what is best for choose for my health between a lollipop and a tomato slice, It doesn't help my choice to know about how lollipops could be made better in the future. Unless your answer to the question is: Starve and wait.