Graphene, possible non-battery uses in bicycles?

[parabellum]

OK guys, I only had about 20 motorcycles in my life, not about bicycles I had till now, oranges to oranges. 1- all bikes where brand- Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki. Never tightened any spoke just as maintenance, only after bad hole hits (2-3 times at all 20). I did have 2 aluminium cast wheel bikes and just got some wobbling in the front wheel of both in some moment, do not remember any reason. On other hand, I ripped 6 enduro rear wheel spokes on one nasty hole and rim was still ok and spokes replaced afterwards (my spine was hurt for a month, I think). My opinion: 1. Tubeless rules (cast wheel is perfect for that) 2. Honda made rolled wheels with steel spokes/interconnections. 3.Spokes are still more practical, until some practical unicorn shit comes along.
P.S. The cooling on solid rim cast must be a good thing, I have 20" GM 1000W which is hard to overheat (in comparison to others at same specs)

 

[Ohbse]

Graphene is amazing! Graphene composite wheels will no doubt be very strong and very light. You know what will be stronger and lighter? Graphene spoked wheels!

If your spoked wheel is built correctly, using non-cheese grade spokes and tensioned correctly the strength and reliability on offer is incredible. I have been done 20,000+ KM on road with big hub motors in spoked rims that I built myself. I have never had a failure, never bent a rim and have only 'trued' up perhaps twice, mostly out of curiosity. Never a loose spoke. That's curb jumping, smashing through pot holes, speed bumps etc. Offroad use as well, jumps etc. Just because you and many others have experienced wheel issues, doesn't mean that spoked wheels are crap - just that yours are.

You might be right about commodity ebikes no longer using spoked wheels at some point, however this will NOT be because they're superior - it will be because people are dumb and incapable of even seeking a service in the event of a problem. Meanwhile anybody that cares about performance (and understands physics) will continue with high strength, low weight tensegrity structures - probably at some point infused with graphene.

 

[Chalo]

Graphene is at present an imaginary material, or alternately a real material in the form of useless nanodust. That doesn't change the fact that a tensioned wheel is superior to an untensioned wheel, irrespective of material. When we have magic buckytube fiber to work with, it will work better as tensioned spokes and compression hoop rims than as wagon wheels.

The advantages of statically tensioned wheels are so great that they allow normal materials, e.g. aluminum and stainless steel, to outperform today's most advanced composites used without static tension. To get the best wheel out of CFRP, you make a rim out of it and lace it up with spokes, and tighten them. How graphene changes that fact when it evolves beyond deadly nanodust, I don't know.

 

[rborger73]

"Graphene is at present an imaginary material" Please just go away.. far away... far, far, far away..

 

[rborger73]

Graphene is amazing! Graphene composite wheels will no doubt be very strong and very light. You know what will be stronger and lighter? Graphene spoked wheels!

If your spoked wheel is built correctly, using non-cheese grade spokes and tensioned correctly the strength and reliability on offer is incredible. I have been done 20,000+ KM on road with big hub motors in spoked rims that I built myself. I have never had a failure, never bent a rim and have only 'trued' up perhaps twice, mostly out of curiosity. Never a loose spoke. That's curb jumping, smashing through pot holes, speed bumps etc. Offroad use as well, jumps etc. Just because you and many others have experienced wheel issues, doesn't mean that spoked wheels are crap - just that yours are.

You might be right about commodity ebikes no longer using spoked wheels at some point, however this will NOT be because they're superior - it will be because people are dumb and incapable of even seeking a service in the event of a problem. Meanwhile anybody that cares about performance (and understands physics) will continue with high strength, low weight tensegrity structures - probably at some point infused with graphene.

Already can buy graphene spoked rims. https://www.vittoria.com/wheels-tech/

And tires with graphene you can already buy. https://www.probikekit.com/bicycle-tyres/vittoria-corsa-g-clincher-graphene-road-tyre/11176504.html


People that think Graphene is some "unicorn" have no ffing idea what they are talking about. Chalo is ... the worst..

 

[spinningmagnets]

I find that graphene is fascinating. I admit that your link proves that bicycle wheels using graphene do exist, but...I did a quick google. At Vittoria prices that range between $800-$2000 PER WHEEL...your assertion that they will take over most bicycle wheel applications seems somewhat ambitious. Mass-production allows common spoked rims to be affordable, and I expect that situation to remain in place for the rest of my lifetime.

 

[rborger73]

I find that graphene is fascinating. I admit that your link proves that bicycle wheels using graphene do exist, but...I did a quick google. At Vittoria prices that range between $800-$2000 PER WHEEL...your assertion that they will take over most bicycle wheel applications seems somewhat ambitious. Mass-production allows common spoked rims to be affordable, and I expect that situation to remain in place for the rest of my lifetime.

Graphene.. imagine it as water at the bottom of the well, and the village is almost out of water. This isn't a casual thing that's going on. This is the new gold rush. They are ridiculously close to super fast mass production methods. As I've said like 20 times now, the only reason for the expense right now, is due to high demand, slower production ability. But they are working 24/7 in a multitude of industries to increase output, and decrease production time. Someone that understands how much Graphene is going to change the world, and quickly, understands mass production is the highest priority right now. It's really not an ambitious claim, it's an inevitable result. It was a "unicorn" assertion in 2006 when it had only been discovered 2 years ago. It was discovered 13 years ago.

Cars already produced and in production with graphene panels. Spend a weekend or two reading up on what is going on..

 

[MadRhino]

Graphene rims do exist. Well, they are CF rims and graphene powder is used to replace some of the resin filling agent. Resin is most of the weight of a CF rim, filling agents are meant for both stiffen it and relieve some of its weight. Like other CF rims, they are expansive, stiff and lightweight. They are not any stronger, but they are lighter and that is a good reason for a racing team to use them, especially when they don't have to pay them. For the sport cyclist who is spending over 10 000 $ for a bike already, it is a fancy aftermarket "upgrade" with no advantage other than a name. For the casual cyclist and the commuter they are a joke.

Still, fiber rims have a future. There will be some day when the fabrication cost should make them a good choice for many. That is if some other material doesn't come up in the meantime, that is making rims better and cheaper than fibers. In the cycle industry, graphene stands better chances to make its place into molded composites than fiber: brakes and derailer parts for an example. My brake levers are molded, carbon filled resin. They are very light weight for the same performance, a good feel under my fingers and I am happy with them. But, I didn't break one in a crash yet and my opinion might change when I see the price and availability of spare parts. I have used composite bash guards and chain guards, but returned to metal because they can be fixed on the spot when damaged.

 

[Chalo]

I have used fumed silica and cubic boron nitride to improve the properties of epoxy resin castings at one of my jobs. I can see how graphene nanodust would do a similar job when used the same way. But the resulting mixture of materials isn't graphene; it's plastic with graphene mixed into it. Not solid pieces of graphene, not even resin reinforced with graphene fibers.

As long as graphene only occurs in micron-sized particles, its only structural materials application will be as an additive for plastic. What's the big deal about that? It seems like the only significant advantage it has at the moment is that some people will pay extra for it. It's certainly not worth getting mesothelioma.

As for graphene's thermal and electrical applications, maybe those could be worth the trouble, expense, and mesothelioma. I don't know.

By the time-- not soon-- that we have macro scale continuous fibers or solid parts made from graphene, then tension spoked wheels, not one-piece wheels, will be the best wheels made from that material.

There are lots of materials whose structural properties look good on paper (monocrystalline silicon for instance), but which don't work for structural parts in the real world. But the moral of this story is not about material. The takeaway is that whatever material you use, the wheel is better if it has tensioned spokes.

A wire spoked steel wheel is better than a stamped steel wheel. A wire spoked wheel made with aluminum rim and spokes is better than a cast aluminum wheel. And a tension spoked carbon fiber composite wheel is better than a monocoque carbon fiber composite wheel. They all have better strength-to-weight and stiffness-to-weight ratios than their one piece equivalents.

 

[rborger73]

It's clear you haven't read a single thing I posted, or the links... Seriously the amount of try it must take for you to remain so ffing purposely obtuse, and perpetually repeating the same nonsense...

 

[cycleops612]

It's clear you haven't read a single thing I posted, or the links... Seriously the amount of try it must take for you to remain so ffing purposely obtuse, and perpetually repeating the same nonsense...

In my IT days, we used the term "write only memory" (or WOM), in such cases.

 

[rborger73]

It's clear you haven't read a single thing I posted, or the links... Seriously the amount of try it must take for you to remain so ffing purposely obtuse, and perpetually repeating the same nonsense...

In my IT days, we used the term "write only memory" (or WOM), in such cases.

Haha, yes I've used that term a few times back in the 90s.

This would also suffice..

10 PRINT "Graphene is nano dust"

20 GOTO 10

 

[MadRhino]

You could continue this conversation in PM, if you don't have anything else to say about wheels.

 

[rborger73]

You could continue this conversation in PM, if you don't have anything else to say about wheels.

Oh I have plenty to say about wheels. I was replying to another post.. I've been on forums since forums existed, I'm pretty sure replying to another reply, is how it works.

Just remember in the future, that time you sided with Chalo. :lol: Graphene in the VERY near future will change literally every industry.

 

[MadRhino]

Well, I am not siding with anyone. I just happen to have the same opinion about wheels, that is a consensus among wheel tech specialists and dirt riders. This is because people who had repaired and replaced a lot of wheels, or lived the experience of damaged wheels in crashes, all agree that ridgid wheels are not good to take a hit.

Your argumentation had sled far away from choices of wheels, to theory of future applications of graphene. Then, promoting graphene aggressively like you own the patent, will not change a thing to the choice of wheels that we are making today. Let's agree that you are right about the future, and wrong about the present.

Another option is: You agree that you were wrong in the present, then in the future we all agree that you are right.

 

[Chalo]

Graphene in the VERY near future will change literally every industry.

Graphene is already making a difference in electrical and thermal applications. Structurally, it's outperformed by much cheaper materials we've already been using. Because, y'know, it's only available as micron-sized dust.

Every product you linked to was using graphene for its electrical and/or thermal qualities. You wanna make wheels out of conductive 3D printer filament and claim they're better than wire wheels?

 

[rborger73]

Graphene in the VERY near future will change literally every industry.

Graphene is already making a difference in electrical and thermal applications. Structurally, it's outperformed by much cheaper materials we've already been using. Because, y'know, it's only available as micron-sized dust.

Every product you linked to was using graphene for its electrical and/or thermal qualities. You wanna make wheels out of conductive 3D printer filament and claim they're better than wire wheels?

Further you prove you haven't looked at any links I put up.. Because I literally didn't link to really anything talking about electrical or thermal qualities.. Tires... ... Rims... entire bike frames... How are those 3 being used for electrical or thermal properties ?

Really hard to remain civil when replying to Chalo...


10 PRINT "Chalo is the worst "
20 GOTO 10

 

[Chalo]

I wasn't discussing the fairy-dust-laced wheels for suckers, but the materials you posted in reply to my assertions about the structural uselessness of graphene nano dandruff.

I could put graphene in an energy drink and get some stupid person to pay me $100 for it, but that doesn't demonstrate its fitness for that purpose. No structural material containing graphene is yet superior to a similar structural material using different, cheaper and less energy intensive filler.

 

[rborger73]

10 PRINT "Chalo is the worst "
20 GOTO 10

 

[DRMousseau]

Well,... we wouldn't have good steel spokes without carbon. The excessive ductility of iron jus wouldn't make it as a wire spoke material. But add too much carbon, and it fails too. In it's many forms from soot to diamonds to life itself, carbon's contribution to nearly everything is quite unmatched.

BUT, carbon doesn't stand alone very good. Of the many allos of carbon, graphene is certainly revolutionary, especially in thermal and conductivity properties. Semi-conductors are gonna change! But unlike graphite tubes, buds and even fibers,... graphene is jus TWO dimensional! And is superior on the atomic level to anything comparable. Above that, graphene's not so miraculous. We live in a 3-dimentional world, and all forms of carbon and graphite need a good supporting medium to accommodate that need. In two-dimensional applications, graphene may see a future yet unknown. But in a 3-D world, C60 in tubes, buckys and even rings and other forms will be more likely to see use in synthetic matrix constructions much as we see today. We use moly, tungsten, and titanium for the very same molecular qualities as graphite fullers, but because they're more stable and better meet the needs of large scale mechanical applications.

And jus because you sprinkle flakes of "unicorn dust" on nylon or mix it in epoxys or polys,.... your jus not gonna see the praised benefits that are supposed to exceed current technologies, but it'll certainly sell good!!! CF has been pretty dominate in various applications,... because on a molecular level, it is effectively GRAPHENE. Heck, they can make airless, flat-free, honeycomb tires from the stuff today, in military grade at that!!!! Will they be commonly seen on consumer bikes and autos soon??? Not likely,.... but we'll probably see more cheap "graphite/graphene" wheels with slim-filled tires. And they'll suit the needs of today's consumer jus fine, even the big guys. Of course you get what you pay for,... so buyer beware, others want your money ya know.

Kinda hard to believe something like this (https://www.trefectamobility.com/store/trefecta-speed-pedelec-2014) uses "obsolete" tires!!!! For $25000+ I'd expect something more than cheap(?) conventional tires!!! LIKE GRAPHENE! LoL!

But heck, maybe we'll see wheel-less "flying e-bikes" first!
http://www.nbcnews.com/mach/technology/watch-futuristic-hoverbike-ace-its-test-flight-n724626

 

[rborger73]

A habit I've developed, is actually researching before I opine about "Unicorn fairy dust"... It's amazing how well people manage to spend time postulating on a subject, they clearly have nary a clue about.. Graphene tires are actually getting the best speed trials, due to their ability to grip on curves. Seriously, if you folks want to be the old men that said, "People will never have home computers", embrace the ignorance even further..

6% lower rolling resistance, much better grip, much better puncture resistance. Watch the full video..

[youtube]GMJ5wD13FBk[/youtube]

Animated explanation of the graphene tires..

[youtube]7ZgMOKzRwjg[/youtube]

 

[markz]

Cost?

 

[rborger73]

Cost?

Tires? About the same as hookworms. 39.00 for the one set I looked at the price for.

 

[rborger73]

http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/road-bike-reviews/vittoria-corsa-graphene-2016



https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_11?url=search-alias%3Doutdoor-recreation&field-keywords=vittoria+graphene&sprefix=Vittoria+gr%2Coutdoor-recreation%2C174&crid=3K5GKSWRF0X0X

Take note these have been being sold for a solid 2 years now...

 

[DRMousseau]

OMG!!!!!

Splurge a little,.... and get a REAL tire!!!! Lol!
• Airless!!!!
• Efficient
• High Speed
• In Wheel suspension
• Lateral Displacement
• Anti-Bounce
• Superior Acceleration
• Improved Rolling Resistance
• Precise Immediate Handling
• Light Weight
• Durable
• Puncture Proof,.... HECK!!! BULLET proof!!!!
Oh,.... and TOTALLY MAINTAINCE FREEEEEEE! Gotta like that right???
And made with that wonderful graphite we so luv! :wink:

http://www.energyreturnwheel.com/Order-ERW/ERW-Wheel-Sets/SLING-SHOT-26-MTB-CARBON-wheel-set.aspx