Graphene, possible non-battery uses in bicycles?

What on earth are you ranting about? Yes, graphene exists, yes it's impressive. And? The relevance here is what exactly? You're seemingly obsessed with its potential to make wheel superior to existing spoked wheels, however either refuse or are incapable of acknowledging the same material would make even more superior spoked wheels.

Chalo is aware it exists, albeit in primarily marketing wank based applications. Doesn't change the fact that you're wrong about wheel choices.
 
The Trefecta vid made me laugh. Note that this bike is advertized as a fast off road bike, and a very expansive one. They tried, but realized they did not have the budget to scrap enough wheels to shoot a trail riding vid. Then they figured out their wheels are really made for F1 circuit grade surface. :D

Now, start a thread about tires (with better success). Lightweight, hard filling agent in tire compound has a real purpose. Many DH racing tires have carbon particles in their compound already. Graphene will probably make its way to my size of tires some day. Who knows, when they make a 3 lbs morcycle tire, I might even consider buying a pair of Excel Trial rims for my dirt bike.

Then, energy return wheels are not ready to match air. That is because they are not tuneable ( they have a fixed hardness that can't be changed ). I am not going into cost yet, we will get to that after they make them tuneable. Some energy return car size wheels are tuneable, so I guess they will come for bikes eventually.
 
Kinda made me giggle too,... but if ya got enough money, they'll trade ya!

Graphite and carbon is nothing new for tires, it don't jus make 'em black! It's construction that's important, and a few "graphene flakes" in nylon, or a real and honest graphite technology will make a big difference in actual quality, AND price. The same for CF and graphene composites. Took 50yrs for radials to finally dominate the tire market, and recent cars have been purposely designed for them. But I really miss bias-plys,... especially on a classic that jus WASN'T designed for todays radials. And there jus isn't many affordable radials actually designed for classics either. Few would know the difference though.

I do stand in wonder of a lifetime of various developing technologies, watched a great deal become a standard of today,... and many more that didn't. AND, had the joy of messin' with a great deal of it when I could. Feel pretty lucky to have survived the early days of mercury glass, acetate film, nitrous, asbestos, Bakelite, petro-chemicals, batteries vacuum tubes and flashbulbs. All are very different and much MUCH nicer today!!! And so are steel spokes as well as graphite wheels.

The "big guy" will make some personal choices today,.... and his decided purchase will reflect those choices. And yes,... the manufactured availability today will influence those choices, jus as it will tomorrow.
 
OP again here with a gentle refocus.

We are all full of it til some numbers are produced, as I have said.

That said, what seems inarguable is that cast wheels vs spokes, are as 3d printing is to welding pipes together into a structure.

Sure, there are current issues w/ 3d printer "ink", but other factors aside (strength/cost/weight...) (which as above, are unknown logical distractions anyhoo), 3d printing has inherent advantages.

You only have to closely study an image of a cast wheel to know the veracity of this. There are no weak spots or over engineering to compensate for them. Material is precisely added in exact amounts and in exactly correct locations. It is an integral, whole, structure rather than as many as 50 sub assemblies, most of which requiring expert tuning.

The only issue is if current moulding materials and methods have yet exceeded the undoubtedly excellent solution spokes have been to date. If not, its only a matter of time.

All the above positive factors seem to apply to a much greater degree, when the integrated whole wheel also incluedes the normally useless structurally material weight of the DD hub housing/rotor. I would guess fully 1/3 of this motor housing material weight can be negated by integrating it in the cast wheel, thus negating much of the relative weight arguments in this rear cast wheel dd hub motor scenario. I doubt there is much weight difference with a similarly strong spoked DD rear hub wheel.
 
A rare constructive counter argument post, was that cast wheels lose the advantages of prestressing. A good point, but not damning. Its the bottom line strenght/weight/cost/durability that counts.

By way of discussion tho, given prestressed cast concrete is as common as, what are the chances of improved future manufacturing including pre-stressing in cast wheels? - adjustable ~spokes/wire within cavities in the cast wheelS ~spokes?

Similarly, given the huge mass market for super bikewheels using a mere 1-1.5kg of alloy, extruded wheels pressed from a block of metal seem cost effectively achievable soon.

True, neither of the above seem to occur in the auto industry, but thats way different. A small car is ~a 40x heavier vehicle than my mid-drive MTB ebike (25kg vs 1000 kg), AND, there is no where near the standardisation like the 26" wheel, attaching mechanism & rim widths in car wheels.

Because pressed steel is the preferred solution for modern cars, is not to say its a good model for bikes. Its a very different problem.
 
Some of you should revisit the history of carbon fiber use... and the naysayers then too. Great, graphene will obviously, as per the handful of Chalo siders, will not for many decades be used for bike, rims, bodies, tires, and is unicorn dust.. Roger.. I'm out.. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
 
rborger73 said:
Some of you should revisit the history of carbon fiber use... and the naysayers then too. Great, graphene will obviously, as per the handful of Chalo siders, will not for many decades be used for bike, rims, bodies, tires, and is unicorn dust.. Roger.. I'm out.. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Click to expand...

Its a tough to convince many of it, but there is much wisdom in the droll adage "You should never spoil a good story with facts."

Its common practice to lie using a bewildering series of inarguable facts.

The list of similar devices is long, and well known to lawyers.

There is simply no way spokes can be superior in all situations now and in the future, & should therefore be ignored by all, as argued by the scofflogics.

As i said at the outset, its clear from ES threads that spokes are not working for a known class of rider, case after case - that of big riders w/ rear DD hubs.

What part of "THERE IS A KNOWN PROBLEM SPOKES DO NOT ADDRESS" do they not get?

even if as they say, a perfectly spoked wheel is better, they still say it needs constant tuning on stressed wheels, which is not real world viable for commuter type consumers.

This thread/discussion has been spoiled for future solution seekers by far too much exhausting, repetitive rot.
 
This is the norm for this forum. I leave for months at a time because of it. I stopped sharing any projects here as well. It's mostly Chalo and a handful of others. All someone has to do, which I actually did and posted the search link here, is to search the forum and see just how many people have issues with spoke wheels on their ebikes. If you use an ebike as daily transportation, and have to use it in weather, spokes fail. At some point you'll have to replace all the spokes, and by that point the rim is likely questionable. So then the person runs into the, ok where can I get this motor laced into a new rim? Do they take time to learn how to do something so critical, or do they try to find an LBS or a Motorcycle shop first capable of doing it? Something very rare in most areas. LBS in general don't want to touch ebikes. Motorcycle shops the same. Consumers do NOT want to deal with that. Even hobbyists don't want to deal with that.

Mine is right at the edge of needing all new spokes, or just laced into a new rim. I've had to replace 2 spokes, and a third needs changed now. So I'm going to order a full set of spokes. Several don't want to adjust without being really gentle with them. I've been late on several occasions because spokes needed retensioned. My hands have gotten dirty most often from having to mess with, and check spoke tension than any other thing on the bike. It's just hysterical to me that people think spoke wheels will always be the best option.. (Stupid that I continue to reply in this thread at this point, I know)..
 
as u say, its sadly detructive to the ES purpose/mission.

e.g. that u need waste time spelling out like its a kindergarten here, what chalo e.g, should simply have accepted as a given - see: threads here on "big guy spoke problems". i spose i should have linked it in retrospect.

put differently, what i hate most about bad behaviour/manners is it makes me act that way too.

but yeah, as u say - i think he knows perfectly well its a very common huge time wasting source of grief to so many, but some neurotic or pecuniary reasoning of his, means its ok to waste everybody's time (sociopathic). Its like he has 3 posts on a loop tape that repeats. Its worse than quite rightly moderated spam

others have pmED me to avoid it btw

I guess the thread is kinda winding up (some data would be nice tho :) )

on balance, am pleased with the outcome of the thread.

In the process i came up w/ an actual product for what i had idealized as a balanced ideal solution to the stated problem, or on paper seems to have the best chance of that - a standard size 26" wide rim MTB cast wheel w/ integrated DD hub. The thread kept me motivated to keep looking.

Maybe its just me, but i think its an awesomely elegant way of ebiking a bike. NB, big guys are more likely to be builders - they need to start w/ a big guy frame, not a factory ebike.

Maybe i am right, and if so, I hope my thread has helped, or especially encouraged big guys to ebike.
 
However the numbers pan out for respective wheels, what seems certain is, that a cast wheel will remain exactly as it left the factory, indefinitely, barring traumas.

Clearly this is often not so with spokes.

This simple statement alone would greatly interest any consumer who has ever had to deal with spoke issues.
 
To be fair, I had heard about graphere a while back, but I was waiting to see it in the news before I read up on it. Thanks to some of the useful links in this thread, I now know a little more.

Graphene can make carbon-fiber bicycle frames even lighter, while making them stronger at the same time. Carbon-fiber frames are a mix of cloth (made from carbon fibers, of course) and epoxy, which is usually applied into a mold and vacuum-cured to draw out any air bubbles that were created in the epoxy mixing process. The result is a frame that is very stiff and light.

However, if a CF frame is ever banged hard enough to make a crack, it is done...no way to properly repair it. Graphene has been tried as a filler in the epoxy, which makes the epoxy lighter, and also makes the epoxy much stronger, and more able to survive hard hits without cracking. Carbon fiber frames have remained fairly expensive, mostly because we are told it requires time-consuming hand application by skilled personnel, along with a very expensive mould.

I believe some of that is true, however...I also believe that there is a vested interest in keeping CF frames expensive, as a niche product. And to be fair, aluminum frames are light enough for the mass of bicycle customers, and aluminum is much more robust than CF for the common street commuter since it can take more abuse.

I don't expect the low end mass-produced big-box store bicycles to ever be a CF/Graphene mix, but...I suppose there will be a few years where CF/Graphene frames will be an upscale item for the top end customer (lighter and stronger than CF), so they will charge more than CF for it, simply due to demand. At some point, perhaps China will use its cheap labor to produce some "mid range" CF/Graphene frames in the sub-$1000 price bracket.

There is another thread discussing graphene for batteries, found here: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=58684
 
That's not how this forum works.

Its rare to have a thread being split, not because its rarely needed, but because its a PITA and nobody wants to do it. The original thread was about spokeless wheels with integral hubmotors, A couple of posts about Graphene is one thing, but a couple of pages sof OT sort of demands to be its own thread.

As far as blocking Chalo, anyone here can block themselves from seeing his posts. There are many posters who's opinions I might disagree with on a given day, but I am comfortable with hearing what everyone has to say, and then letting the reader decide who's argument was more persuasive.
 
I've found on this forum things often happen whether they do or don't make sense. So, really doesn't matter what I think. lol :lol:
 
spinningmagnets said:
To be fair, I had heard about graphere a while back, but I was waiting to see it in the news before I read up on it. Thanks to some of the useful links in this thread, I now know a little more.

Graphene can make carbon-fiber bicycle frames even lighter, while making them stronger at the same time. Carbon-fiber frames are a mix of cloth (made from carbon fibers, of course) and epoxy, which is usually applied into a mold and vacuum-cured to draw out any air bubbles that were created in the epoxy mixing process. The result is a frame that is very stiff and light.

However, if a CF frame is ever banged hard enough to make a crack, it is done...no way to properly repair it. Graphene has been tried as a filler in the epoxy, which makes the epoxy lighter, and also makes the epoxy much stronger, and more able to survive hard hits without cracking. Carbon fiber frames have remained fairly expensive, mostly because we are told it requires time-consuming hand application by skilled personnel, along with a very expensive mould.

I believe some of that is true, however...I also believe that there is a vested interest in keeping CF frames expensive, as a niche product. And to be fair, aluminum frames are light enough for the mass of bicycle customers, and aluminum is much more robust than CF for the common street commuter since it can take more abuse.

I don't expect the low end mass-produced big-box store bicycles to ever be a CF/Graphene mix, but...I suppose there will be a few years where CF/Graphene frames will be an upscale item for the top end customer (lighter and stronger than CF), so they will charge more than CF for it, simply due to demand. At some point, perhaps China will use its cheap labor to produce some "mid range" CF/Graphene frames in the sub-$1000 price bracket.

There is another thread discussing graphene for batteries, found here: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=58684
Click to expand...
:)
Of course pencil makers have been keen on it for some time.

dunno how universal the expression is, but here in oz, "puts lead in your pencil" = gives you a hard on. So given its the new black so to speak, u could say it puts lead in your pencil.
 
Now you want someone blocked because he disagree with you ? Or maybe it is because you find him rude and obstinate ? Then I am sorry to say that you are very close competition, that is a remarkable achievement in such a short posting history. :D

It is not another thread that you need to start, it is another forum. Imagine your own forum that you control alone, where your opinions are the only truth allowed. :mrgreen:
 
cycleops612 said:
That said, what seems inarguable is that cast wheels vs spokes, are as 3d printing is to welding pipes together into a structure.
Click to expand...

That's not true. Neither of those processes allows creation of the static pre-tension that gives a wire wheel its integrity. A bicycle wheel stands on the tension in its bottom spokes. Without it, the spokes would have to bear loads in compression, which is much less efficient.

I have given some thought to how a unit wheel could be prestressed. The only thing I've come up with is maybe flash chill the outer rim after casting, causing the cast spokes to develop tension as they cool and contract.
 
spinningmagnets said:
Graphene has been tried as a filler in the epoxy, which makes the epoxy lighter,
Click to expand...

I don't see how this could be. Epoxy resin weighs about 1.2g/cc, and graphene about 2.2g/cc. The more graphene filler you use, the more a given volume of epoxy weighs.

While a fine particulate filler like graphene does strengthen resin, is does so to a lesser degree than a fibrous filler like glass, aramid, or carbon fiber. Average density of fiberglass/resin composite is about 1.6, so adding graphene to that would also make it weigh more for a given volume.
 
cycleops612 said:
If the Luddites here had their way, carbon frames would be made by gluing carbon fiber tubes together.
Click to expand...

Calfee, Crumpton, and Trek OCLV frames are all made by gluing carbon fiber tubes together. There are probably more Trek carbon fiber frames out there than any other kind.
 
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