Grin’s perspective of Ebike fires

[Hillhater]

Hybrid is cheaper upfront and is a WAY less expensive way to reduce emissions per mile,

But not as cheap or easy as converting ICEs to LPG or CNG which also dramatically reduce emissions.
That would be the smart way to go whilst waiting for the EV technology to mature and reduce in cost.
it also addresses the main issue of reducing the consumption of Oil products ,..quickly… without wasting all the hardware and manufacturing resources that have been built up over the last 100 yrs !

 

[neptronix]

I totally forgot about that.
Apparently the govt here in the states regulated that out of existance / too hard to pull off.

Yet another solution we could have used during the transition.

 

[neptronix]

Back to battery safety..

Looks like Grin is going through the ringer of making all their packs UL certified..
Apparently em3ev is too and i have word that they have potted batteries coming up in a week or two.

Will UPP survive? hmmmm...

EDIT 04/17/2024: em3ev tells me the battery is actually not potted, reverting their previous statement. Sorry for transmitting the mixup.

 

[Hillhater]

It did catch on in coastal California. A Prius is a rare sight elsewhere.
Prius is one of the few hybrid cars sold in decent quantity. Maybe the only?

Have you been to any big cities lately ?..USA or any other country.
take a closer look at some of the Camrys , Rav 4s, etc , and Lexus models also….they may not be as obvious as the Prius, but many of them have been Hybrids for years.

 

[neptronix]

Yes, i've lived all over the USA, big cities and small.
Grew up in California, visit every couple of years.

 

[Hillhater]

I want a car the quality of the lucid air in handling and ride quality but a plugin hybrid.

Lexus LC500h…?

 

[DaLanMan]

Yes, i've lived all over the USA, big cities and small.
Grew up in California, visit every couple of years.

::ahem:: the term sir, is you escaped... Not left, the collective does not allow dissent!

 

[orangezero]

Yeah but they aren't good driving. I want a car the quality of the lucid air in handling and ride quality but a plugin hybrid. None of this plug in hybrids being reserved for the boring economy class segment. Attempt of performance cars being full electric and sucking aside from the lucid. Lucid is great just heavy asf and all the cons of a full ev except handling it drives better than my Jetta GLI by a lot. Like chefs kiss. Making a turbo 4 performance phev that does what lucid does in a full ev can't be that hard.

You dismiss my Tesla Model 3, whereas I'm legit concerned for the future safety of our highway system as these types of vehicles become more affordable as used, first cars for teenagers. I've heard grown men, women and children scream as I accelerate from a stop and then beg me to do it again. My little niece double checks that I won't "go too fast" before she gets in my car because she remembers the first time she was in it. No one screamed in my honda civic or mini cooper S or any of the fancier cars my friends have owned over the years. Mine is certainly not a Tesla you would describe as a performance model.

I worry about drivers on the road next to me who think it inadequate... I chuckle at the people who need to feel a knob and don't like screens. All I think about in my Tesla is that I'm driving at some point in the future while everyone else worries about the current price of a gallon of gas. Unless I'm charging for free; then I'm thinking about all the money I'm saving.

In any case, in regards to this thread, some of the newer ones have moved on to lifepo4 packs.

 

[boytitan]

You dismiss my Tesla Model 3, whereas I'm legit concerned for the future safety of our highway system as these types of vehicles become more affordable as used, first cars for teenagers. I've heard grown men, women and children scream as I accelerate from a stop and then beg me to do it again. My little niece double checks that I won't "go too fast" before she gets in my car because she remembers the first time she was in it. No one screamed in my honda civic or mini cooper S or any of the fancier cars my friends have owned over the years. Mine is certainly not a Tesla you would describe as a performance model.

I worry about drivers on the road next to me who think it inadequate... I chuckle at the people who need to feel a knob and don't like screens. All I think about in my Tesla is that I'm driving at some point in the future while everyone else worries about the current price of a gallon of gas. Unless I'm charging for free; then I'm thinking about all the money I'm saving.

In any case, in regards to this thread, some of the newer ones have moved on to lifepo4 packs.

Acceleration is not everything, anyways I am seeing more electric cars simulate what a limited slip differential does by using independent motors in each wheel, abs and good programming.The new electric g wagon being a prime example of great motor design.

 

[Chalo]

I chuckle at the people who need to feel a knob and don't like screens.

Others will be chuckling when that garbage quits working and your car is bricked. And then again when you get the bill.

E-cars are an improvement, like for like, over stinking gas cars. But until there are cost-effective, simple, serviceable, durable e-cars available, all of them look like a pass/fail intelligence test that you fail when you buy one.

 

[Hillhater]

All I think about in my Tesla is that I'm driving at some point in the future while everyone else worries about the current price of a gallon of gas. Unless I'm charging for free; then I'm thinking about all the money I'm saving.

You may want to check with Hertz , Sixt, or other rental companies who have experience with EVs, about all that money you think you are saving..!
Fuel is not a major cost in car ownership .

 

[nicobie]

Fuel is not a major cost in car ownership .

Hahahahahaha...

 

[Hillhater]

Hahahahahaha...

…ccompare to all the other costs such as maintenance, spares, depreciation, tolls, parking, insurance,
Depreciation….https://youtu.be/eGS34ENu4S4?si=Ktv3UuiWSXNDYnAd

 

[gromike]

That link is a deep well.

 

[Hillhater]

It's intriguing how a CO2 extinguisher can be effective, as the CO2's extreme cold can rapidly cool the battery.

For that to be effective, it would need direct access onto the cells and for an extended period .
Both those requirements are unlikely as most batteries are enclosed and CO2 extinguishers dont last more than a few minutes at most !

 

[Cowardlyduck]

C02 gives you a chance though. Power extinguishers (type D) which are still widely recommended for 'Lithium fires' will only prevent other stuff around the battery catching fire, and that's only if the battery doesn't explode and blow all the power away. It's a misnomer to call it a fire extinguisher at that point....more of a "fire spread stopper".

C02 can stop fire already spreading to other areas, while having half a chance of stopping thermal runaway to adjacent cells, or at the very least buy you some time to get a hose and start dowsing with copious amounts of water.

I will never forget the time I stopped the spread of a smoldering fire taking hold in a mates ebike using tire inflating C02 cartridges. See below:

Obviously the cells themselves were not burning yet, but the C02 certainly helped stop the spread/ignition and cool things down (including fingers) and avoided a much worse outcome.

Cheers

 

[Cowardlyduck]

And whatya know....someone just made the perfect addition to our Ebikes....this looks like it might be a good addition to some of the higher risk ebikes!

Fighting fire with pyro: World's smallest extinguisher leaves no mess

These remarkable non-toxic fire suppressors are the smallest on the market. They handle a variety of situations, including grease, engine, server rack and battery fires, using pyrotechnic technology – and they don't ruin what you're trying to save.

newatlas.com

 

[Guerney]

Surely it's better to expel the ebike battery from your home before it bursts into flames? Apologies for the bad editing. And noises:

https://vimeo.com/890692565

 

[Diggs]

potted batteries

I notice Grin's talk didn't mention potted batteries. Does a potted battery do anything to contain a runaway thermal event or fire?

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Surely it's better to expel the ebike battery from your home before it bursts into flames? Apologies for the bad editing. And noises:

https://vimeo.com/890692565

Well that was ummmm....interesting! This is certainly a sensible option for removable ebike batteries. Most of us here aren't using those though.

Cheers

 

[Hummina Shadeeba]

I notice Grin's talk didn't mention potted batteries. Does a potted battery do anything to contain a runaway thermal event or fire?

it does help protect the battery from physical damage, shoring, or water damage that could lead to runaway.

I wonder on the glued shut safety valves increasing likelihood of runaway though

 

[neptronix]

I notice Grin's talk didn't mention potted batteries. Does a potted battery do anything to contain a runaway thermal event or fire?

I've seen a lot of companies claiming they have some material that stops a battery fire.
..yet in these same places i have not seen a test proving that they actually achieve that.

Turns out it's pretty hard to stop the ~5000F of heat lithium batteries can produce during a fire. You probably need to venure into using materials only found on space ships, and i'm betting that's uneconomical.

New record set for world's most heat resistant material | Imperial News | Imperial College London.

 

[Hummina Shadeeba]

Surely it's better to expel the ebike battery from your home before it bursts into flames? Apologies for the bad editing. And noises:

https://vimeo.com/890692565

What about many temp sensors? I imagine one would miss a riss in temp from a distant cell

 

[Chalo]

I've seen a lot of companies claiming they have some material that stops a battery fire.
..yet in these same places i have not seen a test proving that they actually achieve that.

Turns out it's pretty hard to stop the ~5000F of heat lithium batteries can produce during a fire.

The thermal materials I've seen used to pot or separate cells in battery packs aren't designed to resist fire, but to prevent it by absorbing heat from a potential runaway. They either serve as a heat sink or as a phase change material or both.

Potting turns battery packs into single use garbage. If the added mass of potting material were replaced with extra cells, then they probably wouldn't get hot anyway unless the pack is egregiously undersized for its job. You'd benefit in range, performance, and/or longevity from the added mass and expense, and you'd be able to service the battery when it eventually develops a problem.

 

[Guerney]

What about many temp sensors? I imagine one would miss a riss in temp from a distant cell

Clearly, 60 degrees Centigrade is too high a temperature. It'll eventually warm up the top surface of the battery case via convection, sounding the horn, prompting me to throw the metal box my battery is charging inside out of the window, using the shovel the box is situated on.

Temperature meassurements:

Home Ruination by Ebike Battery Fire Expulserating PreTerminator™®©℠

Consider this a trailer promoting my easy to assemble ebike battery safety contraption. Photos with details and an ever so slightly better video will follow.

www.pedelecs.co.uk