Grin’s perspective of Ebike fires

[314Zombie]

Engwe is recalling batteries here in Europe. Well, they want customers to dispose / show proof of destruction after which they allegedly send a new one. This, I think, would not exactly be a normal recall strategy. Anybody know what cells they generally use or the technical reasoning behind?

 

[Guerney]

Engwe is recalling batteries here in Europe. Well, they want customers to dispose / show proof of destruction after which they allegedly send a new one. This, I think, would not exactly be a normal recall strategy. Anybody know what cells they generally use or the technical reasoning behind?

Do you happen to have a link?

The Office for Product Safety and Standards in the UK issued a warning about a UPP battery in January this year:

OPSS takes enforcement action over dangerous e-bike battery ​

OPSS is taking enforcement action and warning consumers about a dangerous e-bike battery manufactured by a company called UPP.

OPSS takes enforcement action over dangerous e-bike battery

OPSS is taking enforcement action and warning consumers about a dangerous e-bike battery manufactured by a company called UPP.

www.gov.uk

UPP e-bike battery linked to multiple fires - four online marketplaces told to withdraw it from sale​

The battery presents "a serious risk of fire as it is poorly built with poor welding to connect the components," says the OPSS

UPP e-bike battery linked to multiple fires - four online marketplaces told to withdraw it from sale

The Office for Product Safety and Standards (OPSS) has issued withdrawal notices to four online marketplaces requiring them to stop selling a "dangerous" e-bike battery manufactured by a company called UPP (Unit Pack Power). Consumers are also being advised not to use the triangle-shaped U004...

ebiketips.road.cc

Dangerous e-bike batteries removed from market thanks to WMFS support​

Joint working proves successful as dangerous batteries removed from sale

https://www.wmfs.net/news/dangerous-e-bike-batteries-removed-from-market-thanks-to-wmfs-support/

 

[314Zombie]

Do you happen to have a link?

There is no link. What's also interesting is that they ask not to publicize the matter...which is counterproductive imo.
Well, look at me posting in this forum looking for answers

I believe they only send a rather elaborate email to what they think are affected customers:

Hello!

This is the official support team of the ENGWE brand!
Recently, we have discovered that other brands on the market have had
battery safety accidents. As a conscientious environmental protection
enterprise, we are also always paying attention to safety issues in
the industry. For this reason, we have organized internal technical
experts and supply chain partners to conduct detailed inspections on
the products currently sold within the company. The final analysis
results are:
A small number of our battery packs may have safety hazards. Because
of extreme reasons such as excessive temperatures in some areas, the
battery temperature rises too quickly and the battery will overheat.
Long-term overheating may cause internal short circuits in the
battery.

Although the probability of this possibility is very low, we are a
conscientious enterprise, so we notify our loyal customers now to
cooperate with us to confirm whether your battery may have hidden
dangers.
Even if there is a one in ten thousand possibility, we will provide a solution.

For your safety, please suspend the use of your battery and store it
in a safe area after receiving our notification. And check the
attached pictures and take a photo of the label picture corresponding
to your battery for us to verify the situation.
If there is no problem with your battery, we will give you a reply
after receiving your label picture.

If we confirm that your battery may have a one in ten thousand hidden
danger, we hope that you can solve the problem according to our
following instructions:
Please contact the local institution that can destroy the battery to
verify the destruction price and destroy it as soon as possible.
Please provide the institution's destruction documents, pictures and
video evidence and receipt.
If you cannot contact the local professional institution, please tell
us your current address and we will do our best to solve the problem
for you.

At the same time, we are already expediting the production of a batch
of high-quality batteries, so please reply to us in time after
receiving the email so that we can confirm whether your battery has
safety hazards in time. If your battery has hidden dangers, we can
assist you in destroying and reissuing the battery in time.

Please believe and support our work as an environmental protection
industry & conscientious enterprise. We also hope to enable all
customers to have a high-quality product.
Finally, we sincerely ask you not to publicize this matter, because at
present this is just a hidden danger that we think may exist, and it
has not really happened; it is just to prevent the one in ten thousand
hidden dangers and protect your maximum rights as a consumer.
And we don't want everyone to lose confidence in the environmental
protection industry, thank you!


Please feel free to contact us if you need any help. We will bring you
a satisfactory solution.
Thank you in advance!
Have a nice day!
Best regards,
Engwe Support
Contact us：
+33 805980036（EU French） Hours: 9 AM - 6 PM (GMT+1 Time), Mon - Fri,
+39 800776809 （EU English）Hours: 9 AM - 6 PM (GMT+1 Time), Mon - Fri,
+1 8442007117（US English）Hours: 9 AM - 6 PM (PST-8 Time),Mon - Fri

 

[Guerney]

There is no link. What's also interesting is that they ask not to publicize the matter...which is counterproductive imo.
Well, look at me posting in this forum looking for answers

I believe they only send a rather elaborate email to what they think are affected customers:

Over the past year or so, I've seen similar messages sent by ebay.co.uk battery sellers on the pedelecs.co.uk forum - it'd cost more to have these cheap batteries professionally destroyed, than to buy a brand new higher quality battery. I guess such dumb offers designed to not be taken up, reduces their liability in the event of post-conflagration lawsuits.

Shortly after the UPP battery warning, many AliExpress sellers of cheap ebike batteries ceased posting to the UK.

I'm no battery expert, but looking at the label, 25A X 48V = 1200W seems rather a lot to be drawing continuously from a 16Ah/768Wh battery composed of cheap Chinese cells... but it does say "25A Max" rather than "25A Max continuous"... which also seems ambitious and unsafe.

Well, look at me posting in this forum looking for answers

They're trying to keep it on the down low, so you've gotta swamp about underground where the wild things lurk...

 

[314Zombie]

Now I'm starting to wonder if it's the perfect scam to get rid of these 'dangerous' batteries.
AKA Sell cheap ebikes to Europe and use their facilities to have the batteries 'professionally' destroyed.

If they actually will send a decent safe replacement to the customers is another question.

How are they passing UN38.3, MSDS and CE certifications though?
Or is it that the system as a whole is not considered?

 

[Az.]

Now I'm starting to wonder if it's the perfect scam to get rid of these 'dangerous' batteries.
AKA Sell cheap ebikes to Europe and use their facilities to have the batteries 'professionally' destroyed.

It sounds like a lot of effort to achieve... what exactly?
In UK you can recycle e-bike batteries in most local recycling centers for free. Many battery sellers offer similar free service

E-Bike Battery Recycling

Recycle Lithium Ion Batteries and Save the Environment! We are one of the first Electric Bike companies to introduce sustainability and close the chain. Lithium ion batteries (18650) are made of valuable materials which is why we need to recycle and reuse!

greenlance.co.uk

 

[The Toecutter]

This horrifying ebike battery fire snuff video was posted recently on pedelecs.co.uk:


"Man dies in elevator since the e-bicycle batter caught fire."

I suspect that when handling the battery during the time that the video was recorded, at some point a short circuit developed when two or more cells contacted each other, possibly from vibration coupled with insufficient insulation.

 

[dawhoda]

Can you be more specific please and provide as much information as possible? Link to battery, was a fast charger used, did you modify battery in any way etc

Battery fires are extremely hot too

 

[Tony01]

I’ve blown up a 4.5kwh pack. It is not a fire you can put out or even get close to. The key is in using quality cells and overspec’n the pack to keep the cells cool.

Rules I live by:
1. always keep your lithium away from valuable things. Outside at least 6ft from your house. I don’t care what state it’s in, whether it’s in a sealed batt box or bare cells. Keep that shit outside!
2. Never charge unattended.
3. If you’re working on EVs or batteries, always have someone near who’s aware of the work being done.

If you can’t have an EV you keep outside, then don’t get an EV.

 

[Az.]

Never charge unattended.

Why? I always leave battery charging unattended. As you said I don't want to be anywhere near that shite.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

Why?

So you can warn others and call the Fire fighters if/when it ignites.

Feeling anti-social?

 

[Diggs]

Keep that shit outside!

Presents a problem in Wisconsin when winter gets to be -20F°. I don't like to do that to my battery packs. Batteries come inside for winter storage in a metal foot locker.

 

[docw009]

It sounds like a lot of effort to achieve... what exactly?
In UK you can recycle e-bike batteries in most local recycling centers for free. Many battery sellers offer similar free service

In the USA, there are some public initiatives for lithium recycling, where ebike batteries are to be recycled at participating ebike shops. In reality only major bike store battery brands like Trek and Specialized are accepted for recycling, The unbranded stuff has nowhere to go,

If I owned a shop, I suppose I would feel the same. I don't want junk packs exploding in the back. When I scrap a battery, I break it down to individual cells which I discharge to zero. Then it's off to the landfill.

 

[Hummina Shadeeba]

In the USA, there are some public initiatives for lithium recycling, where ebike batteries are to be recycled at participating ebike shops. In reality only major bike store battery brands like Trek and Specialized are accepted for recycling, The unbranded stuff has nowhere to go,

If I owned a shop, I suppose I would feel the same. I don't want junk packs exploding in the back. When I scrap a battery, I break it down to individual cells which I discharge to zero. Then it's off to the landfill.

Why not recycle?

 

[Hillhater]

Why not recycle?

where ??

In reality only major bike store battery brands like Trek and Specialized are accepted for recycling, The unbranded stuff has nowhere to go,

 

[Hummina Shadeeba]

where ??

https://corporate.homedepot.com/news/sustainability/celebrating-20-years-call2recycle-more-12-million-pounds-batteries-recycled#:~:text=*Editor's%20Note:%20The%20batteries%20inside,delivered%20straight%20to%20your%20inbox.

 

[harrisonpatm]

https://corporate.homedepot.com/news/sustainability/celebrating-20-years-call2recycle-more-12-million-pounds-batteries-recycled#:~:text=*Editor's%20Note:%20The%20batteries%20inside,delivered%20straight%20to%20your%20inbox.

Oh that's great! Let me just enter my information...

Ah. Zero locations within a 50-mile radius that accept ebike batteries. Just tool batteries. And even then, only certain brands. No cell phone batteries, no "high-power" batteries (whatever classification that is), not even any locations near me to recycle single-use batteries like alkaline AAAs.

There's lots of talk about how great it is to recycle lithium and how many programs there are. In practice, for the end user, we usually get stuck with a dead battery that nobody wants to take. Or they'll charge money to accept it. If you're lucky enough to have a location in your are that accepts whatever lithium to you send them, that's awesome. Tell all your friends and neighbors about it, use it as much as possible.

Personally, I actually go around a 20-mile radius every month or two two computer repair shops and pick up their dead battery packs for them because they have nowhere they know of to send them. I break them down, test and save the usable ones, and take to rest to the single scrapyard in my area, 20-miles away, that actually takes them. This scrapyard doesn't pay me for said scrap, like copper or aluminum scrap. In fact, the guys there have asked me not to advertise to others that I know of a place that accepts lithium for recycling, because they have a really hard time offloading it, and none of the other 4-5 scrapyards in my area accept lithium at all.

Lithium recycling is something that's talked about way more than its actually practiced. I'd like that to change, and I'm doing more than my share to participate in it. But the average consumer is going to be hard pressed to be able to recycle an ebike battery.

What's easily recyclable, and frequently even profitable, are lead-acid batteries. Because they've been around for 150 years, we've had plenty of time to figure out the best ways to recycle them.

 

[docw009]

https://corporate.homedepot.com/news/sustainability/celebrating-20-years-call2recycle-more-12-million-pounds-batteries-recycled#:~:text=*Editor's%20Note:%20The%20batteries%20inside,delivered%20straight%20to%20your%20inbox.

"Home Depot stores in nearly every state offer this program to customers. Any rechargeable battery, including lithium batteries or cellphone batteries, that weigh up to 11 pounds and is under 300 watt-hours is accepted. To a find a drop off location near you, visit: Battery & Cellphone Drop-Off Locations | Call2Recycle."

48V6AH. And they better not take any shrink wrapped bricks from China,

 

[Hummina Shadeeba]

under 300 watt-hours

Hopefully they can be broken down.

 

[Hummina Shadeeba]

Oh that's great! Let me just enter my information...

Ah. Zero locations within a 50-mile radius that accept ebike batteries. Just tool batteries. And even then, only certain brands. No cell phone batteries, no "high-power" batteries (whatever classification that is), not even any locations near me to recycle single-use batteries like alkaline AAAs.

There's lots of talk about how great it is to recycle lithium and how many programs there are. In practice, for the end user, we usually get stuck with a dead battery that nobody wants to take. Or they'll charge money to accept it. If you're lucky enough to have a location in your are that accepts whatever lithium to you send them, that's awesome. Tell all your friends and neighbors about it, use it as much as possible.

Personally, I actually go around a 20-mile radius every month or two two computer repair shops and pick up their dead battery packs for them because they have nowhere they know of to send them. I break them down, test and save the usable ones, and take to rest to the single scrapyard in my area, 20-miles away, that actually takes them. This scrapyard doesn't pay me for said scrap, like copper or aluminum scrap. In fact, the guys there have asked me not to advertise to others that I know of a place that accepts lithium for recycling, because they have a really hard time offloading it, and none of the other 4-5 scrapyards in my area accept lithium at all.

Lithium recycling is something that's talked about way more than its actually practiced. I'd like that to change, and I'm doing more than my share to participate in it. But the average consumer is going to be hard pressed to be able to recycle an ebike battery.

What's easily recyclable, and frequently even profitable, are lead-acid batteries. Because they've been around for 150 years, we've had plenty of time to figure out the best ways to recycle them.

Isn’t there value in used ion cells?

 

[harrisonpatm]

Isn’t there value in used ion cells?

If you're willing to put in the time and effort

 

[Diggs]

Isn’t there value in used ion cells?

Unmatched cells, especially used ones are dangerous with ebikes. The powerwall guys use them butrarely stress them and montior just about every cell.

Battery fire that should have happened

I've repaired computers for many years. (It was my business.) There was a time period when almost all laptops had the removable rear battery pack. That pack unusually consisted of six 18650 cells and a little BMS board. It wasn't uncommon for one or two cells to fail which shuts down the pack...

endless-sphere.com

 

[Diggs]

winter storage in a metal foot locker.

BTW - I see the metal footlockers I use for indoor storage are back for sale on Ebay -

Metal Footlocker Trunk Chest Storage Locker Box with Lock Key Moving Boxes Rare | eBay

Rare Case ! Nice locking clasp with Lock & Key included. Are you looking for a storage solution that is both stylish and functional?. This trunk is perfect for storing clothes, books, Tools, or anything else you need to keep organized.

www.ebay.com

 

[Hummina Shadeeba]

If you're willing to put in the time and effort

Do u mean taking cells apart for their ingredients? I was imagining cutting them up for steel and lithium or something.

 

[harrisonpatm]

Do u mean taking cells apart for their ingredients? I was imagining cutting them up for steel and lithium or something.

I mean both. Either route takes time and effort. If you break down old packs for cell reclaimation like I do, you have your work cut out for you individually testing hundreds or thousands of cells to make sure they can still be used, and constantly monitoring them to make sure they don't go bad.

And if you want to go the material route, that takes its own brand of equipment, time, safety precautions and effort. I have no idea how to do that, nor do I think its safe to do in a home environment, but it's probably possible.