* * * Group Battery Purchase * * *

[green hornet]

3 months individual cells
same as lifebatt

 

[EMF]

Thanks. I guess we wait for Doc to tell us the other answers.

 

[Battboy]

Bob Mcree is offering LiFeBATT cells now in qty >15 for $40. and if you
want one or two of his BMS systems he will sell you them for his cost of
about $100. you can either parallel the cells first and use one bms or use
one for each serial string with or without combining diodes.

If you use an approved charger he will warranty the system for 2 years. If you
buy a system he will personally extend the warranty to 3 years non-prorated
replacement on the cells when used with his bms and an approved charging
system.

Don Harmon

 

[EMF]

Don thanks for the info. I'm just messing with this "Greenhornet" guy. I would never buy anything from someone that calls one of our members a moron or an idiot. We argue about things here, but we shouldn't call each other names.

I'm waiting for Gary and Bob (like a lot of folks) to finish up their work and will probably spring for 2-36 volt Lifebatt packs. It seems like it is getting pretty close.

 

[green hornet]

You need to profess your affection and love for Don to a private motel room ok ?

 

[Battboy]

These are the batteries Green Hornet is hawking: http://www.zeva.com.au/tech/headway/

 

[oatnet]

What's the warranty on your cells? What is the chemistry? I see from the picture, that they are 3.2 volts per cell so I am a bit confused, but I assume from that, they are LifePO4? What cycle life can we expect?

Same cycle life and voltage as LifeBatt, right? I think Andy was saying that Dr. Bass is currently testing these very cells, you might have seen the thread:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3374

I would never buy anything from someone that calls one of our members a moron or an idiot.

I agree that Andy's post wasn't how I would choose to promote a product... But if you are serious about that logic, then you do not want to purchase LifeBatt - Don Harmon has done far far worse. I can quote numerous examples, but my introduction to Don is clearest in my mind. When he first posted about his LiFe here, a lot of people were shocked by a price that was triple that of other product currently available. I posted my business case, that I was a proven customer looking to sign suppliers, but I was not very interested in a warrantee or lab certifications. At least, not interested enough to pay triple what I paid for other packs, packs that I was actively using and pretty comfortable with. Don felt threatened and his response was SO abusive that the mods had to delete the content of his post. Whenever threatened, you can count on Don to be hostile, that is what got him kicked off the TF forum. If that fails, he will call in "honest-I-don't-have-a-vested-interested-except-sorta" Josh Goldberg in to tag-team the poor victim, or one of them will create a bogus ID to slam the seller (like Josh did on Patrick's For-Sale thread).

Of course, now that Patrick is proving my point by offering LifeBatt at the EXACT price point and the EXACT warrantee structure Don jumped on me for mentioning - it must drive him nuts! Not to mention that Don can't stop "his" factory from selling to his competitors, and he has already had to reduce his prices @ 50% from his initial plan - so much profit out the window already! I regret the impact it this might have on Gary and Bob - I think they are both brilliant (or at least a lot smarter than me) and I have personally benefitted from their contributions here - but I am sure they are smart enough to take care of themselves and negotiate supply agreements that keep them competitive.

We argue about things here, but we shouldn't call each other names.

Umm, while I wish that was so, that seems to be a pretty regular thing here - nowhere as harsh as the v-is-for-voltage forum, but not as sanitary as the Tidalforce forum either. You should have seen some of the 'volcanic' personalities at work during the 6 months or so before you joined.

And besides, it was 'safe' he insulted - if you have been following E:S, you might have noticed that 'safe' is well-meaning but not exactly the sharpest tool on the shelf, and as a result he seems to be a lightening rod for a lot of that sort of reaction so no suprises there. I personally wouldn't use Andy's approach in a thread where I am selling things, but I have bought good cells/packs from him, so FalconEV stays on my list of preferred battery vendors.

-JD

 

[Deepkimchi]

Oh bud, I smell one of those 24 page threads with people taking pot shots at each other throughout... :|

Should we break out the popcorn and marshmellows or y'all going to settle down...?

 

[safe]

And besides, it was 'safe' he insulted - if you have been following E:S, you might have noticed that 'safe' is well-meaning but not exactly the sharpest tool on the shelf, and as a result he seems to be a lightening rod for a lot of that sort of reaction so no suprises there.

And if you looked at my response you saw that I didn't jump on him about it. Other people have made mistakes about Thundersky's history and I was simply correcting him.

We are here to learn... I make no pretense of having absolute knowledge in advance and am unafraid of making a mistake.

That's why we are here, to learn, to make mistakes, so that everyone advances.

Think: Group Battery Purchase

The whole point of the thread is to seek out and find REAL BARGAINS where high volume can give a discount. If there is no "high volume" angle we should not discuss it here because you can just buy them by yourself.

So anyone know of a really good high volume deal?

The thing is that people need to feel unafraid to propose ideas even when others are nitpicking them. It's better to encourange many ideas and then weed through them to find a gem than to stifle everyone and have nothing.

 

[Battboy]

Oatnet Wrote:

Of course, now that Patrick is proving my point by offering LifeBatt at the EXACT price point and the EXACT warrantee structure Don jumped on me for mentioning - it must drive him nuts! Not to mention that Don can't stop "his" factory from selling to his competitors, and he has already had to reduce his prices @ 50% from his initial plan - so much profit out the window already!

Most of his post is subjective opinion and I will not comment on that - but the above statement is really just false. You may check it our yourselves. Patrick was not able to buy these cells from our factory because LiFeBATT purchased the factory and all of their staff is now working for LiFeBATT. Secondly, we have not changed our pricing since we posted the original prices on our website over 3 months ago. You can also check that yourselves. So once again Oatnet speaks without any real knowledge of the facts. This is just troublemaking from someone who has a grudge and never was a serious buyer for LiFeBATT.

Best,

Don Harmon

 

[EMF]

What's the warranty on your cells? What is the chemistry? I see from the picture, that they are 3.2 volts per cell so I am a bit confused, but I assume from that, they are LifePO4? What cycle life can we expect?

Same cycle life and voltage as LifeBatt, right? I think Andy was saying that Dr. Bass is currently testing these very cells, you might have seen the thread:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3374

I would never buy anything from someone that calls one of our members a moron or an idiot.

I agree that Andy's post wasn't how I would choose to promote a product... But if you are serious about that logic, then you do not want to purchase LifeBatt - Don Harmon has done far far worse. I can quote numerous examples, but my introduction to Don is clearest in my mind. When he first posted about his LiFe here, a lot of people were shocked by a price that was triple that of other product currently available. I posted my business case, that I was a proven customer looking to sign suppliers, but I was not very interested in a warrantee or lab certifications. At least, not interested enough to pay triple what I paid for other packs, packs that I was actively using and pretty comfortable with. Don felt threatened and his response was SO abusive that the mods had to delete the content of his post. Whenever threatened, you can count on Don to be hostile, that is what got him kicked off the TF forum. If that fails, he will call in "honest-I-don't-have-a-vested-interested-except-sorta" Josh Goldberg in to tag-team the poor victim, or one of them will create a bogus ID to slam the seller (like Josh did on Patrick's For-Sale thread).

Of course, now that Patrick is proving my point by offering LifeBatt at the EXACT price point and the EXACT warrantee structure Don jumped on me for mentioning - it must drive him nuts! Not to mention that Don can't stop "his" factory from selling to his competitors, and he has already had to reduce his prices @ 50% from his initial plan - so much profit out the window already! I regret the impact it this might have on Gary and Bob - I think they are both brilliant (or at least a lot smarter than me) and I have personally benefitted from their contributions here - but I am sure they are smart enough to take care of themselves and negotiate supply agreements that keep them competitive.

We argue about things here, but we shouldn't call each other names.

Umm, while I wish that was so, that seems to be a pretty regular thing here - nowhere as harsh as the v-is-for-voltage forum, but not as sanitary as the Tidalforce forum either. You should have seen some of the 'volcanic' personalities at work during the 6 months or so before you joined.

And besides, it was 'safe' he insulted - if you have been following E:S, you might have noticed that 'safe' is well-meaning but not exactly the sharpest tool on the shelf, and as a result he seems to be a lightening rod for a lot of that sort of reaction so no suprises there. I personally wouldn't use Andy's approach in a thread where I am selling things, but I have bought good cells/packs from him, so FalconEV stays on my list of preferred battery vendors.

-JD

Look, like that one unfortunate chap mentioned publicly years ago in California, after a severe beating from law enforcement officers - we should all just try to get along. It doesn't matter who was insulted, what does matter is that a member was insulted, with no apology given once noted, just another terse, confrontational remark to yet another member, suggesting a (homosexual) tryst at a motel be scheduled with yet another member.

The other thing is, (especially) if I were a vendor, I would refrain from insulting members of what is shaping up to be the most popular ebike forum on the Internet. And one with no advertising at that! This place is pretty special.

After reading your post, I can't say what should happen in situations such as this one and the ones you elude to, as there are no rules here in this forum directly regarding this matter, (I looked at the registration page after reading the "moron" comment). However, in most community forums that I have visited and one that I was an administrator of, "Green Hornet" would more than likely be given a temporary ban for his disrespect to Safe after a discussion by the moderator(s) and admins. Otherwise things can spin out of control.

There are no "direct" rules against belittling one another here at the moment, at least none that I could see, the bottom line to me is this: A vendor or even a member, should ask him or herself, prior to pressing the send button, who is being hurt most, himself or his intended target.

Finally IMHO, since this forum runs without advertising and there really is no funding for administration, I think it is critical that we all behave as adults and do not jeapordise (sp?) this situation. It can be a lot of work to administer and moderate a forum, so we owe these people our respect as well and try to do all that we can to not create headaches for them.

 

[safe]

The fact of the matter is that I do sometimes say really stupid things. If you focused on a single post and on that post I had pursued an idea that was wrong then you might conclude that I WAS a Moron. But I actually learn (more slowly than people might prefer) and eventually I get there.

When I first started posting I refused to accept that PWM Controllers were able to deliver more amps when at lower volts. (the so called "current multiplication" effect) It took me about three weeks of arguing the wrong position until I realized I was in error.

Let's just all agree to be curious and to try to seek the truth. If someone stumbles along the way towards truth give them a hand... be a good teacher... and help them. (pretend you were like Jesus or something, he was a really popular example once)

Now let's get back to being "cheap" and wanting to buy batteries at discount prices. That's something we can all agree on.

 

[oatnet]

After reading your post, I can't say what should happen in situations such as this one and the ones you elude to, as there are no rules here in this forum directly regarding this matter, (I looked at the registration page after reading the "moron" comment). However, in most community forums that I have visited and one that I was an administrator of, "Green Hornet" would more than likely be given a temporary ban for his disrespect to Safe after a discussion by the moderator(s) and admins.

Hmm... Like most of us here, I have participated/moderated a wide range of forums with an even wider range of acceptable behaviors, and in my experience it certainly has NOT been the norm that calling someone a 'moron' or suggesting 'two people get a room' would be considered even noteworthy, let alone justification for censure. In my experience in THIS specific forum those comments are pretty mild, so I don't think you are really in touch with E:S standards of behavior.

In any case, E:S is well moderated. To me, letting the mods set the tone is the most universally acceptable 'norm of behavior' for forums. If one has an issue with a member's behavior, the most socially acceptable recourse would probably be to report said behavior to the people assigned the job rather than trying to Police the forum oneself and impose ones own rules/values.

The other thing is, (especially) if I were a vendor, I would refrain from insulting members of what is shaping up to be the most popular ebike forum on the Internet. And one with no advertising at that! This place is pretty special.

Agreed, and I would not have taken the same approach Andy did, but those are his choices and his repercussions, not mine. Maybe I am just describing myself , but I believe that many of us attracted to the ev/ebike hobby tend to be highly intelligent, highly skilled, highly creative, and highly individualistic, which results in a lifetime of strong confident opinions, and perhaps a tendancy to be a bit off center and assert those opinions up in a less-than-socially-acceptable manner. As a result, the sparks do fly, more than I am comfortable with sometimes, but this is the ebike world we live in and I believe you will just frustrate yourself if you try to change the personalities.

If one's skin is not thick enough for E:S, Deerfencer keeps a tight reign on the Tidalforce Forum and it is always a pleasant place to be. If ones skin is thicker than mine, then v-is-for-voltage has good information. Like Goldilocks in 'the 3 bears', I personally think this forum is just right...

Wait - did I just compare myself to Goldilocks?

-JD

 

[oatnet]

Secondly, we have not changed our pricing since we posted the original prices on our website over 3 months ago. You can also check that yourselves. So once again Oatnet speaks without any real knowledge of the facts. This is just troublemaking from someone who has a grudge and never was a serious buyer for LiFeBATT.

Best,
Don Harmon

Zat so? Are you still charging $455.00 for a 12v/10ah pack? $2,010.00 for a 72v10ah pack?

Let's talk FACTS. Don's original prices were quoted on his website at least (7) months ago, NOT (3) months ago. Here are the published prices for LifeButt product on August 6, 2007, documented in the link I supply below:

1. 12V/10 Ah Module Pack with BMS, Charger + Shipping = $ 455.00 USD
2. 12V/10 Ah Charger (1C Charging rate ) = $ 75.00 USD
3. 24V/20 Ah Module Pack with BMS, Charger + Shipping = $ 1,308.00 USD
4. 24V/20 Ah Charger (0.5C Charging rate ) = $ 100.00 USD
5. 24V/40 Ah Module Pack with BMS, Charger + Shipping = $ 2,415.00 USD
6. 36V/10 Ah Module Pack with BMS, Charger + Shipping = $ 1,005.00 USD

Those are the prices that I said were higher than I could pay, and Don jumped all over me for my opinion. I'd highly suggest anyone that wants to see the REAL Don Harmon in action (I have backups if he edits his posts), check out this link to some of his first post on this forum, and the root of my "grudge" with LifeButt - look at my very reasonable post on August 7th, and look at his reponses:

==========================================================
>> http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1721 <<
==========================================================

And unlike Don asserts, I am a serious buyer for hundreds of LifePO4 packs. I like the promises made about LiFeBatt's chemistry, which is why I am buying cells from Patrick. Patrick offers the price point I need and the warrantee I have come to expect (none). However, I didn't like Don's initial price of $3,800.00 for the 72v20ah size pack I was buying then, which exceeded the target price for my entire ebike offering. And I really never want to do business with someone who was abusive to me in pre-sale ! So while I am not currently a potential buyer for LifeButt, I was at one time - it only took Don's special skills at handling customer objections to lose a boatload of business. Attaboy Don, blame it on the customer, and if all else fails belittle them.

-JD

 

[Joshua Goldberg]

part of the Tag Team here

EMF you wrote that anyone here who calls another Member a Moron you would never buy from them, so I guess that removes me from selling you a Lifepo4 pack because I am calling you a Moron.

Question for you, has Patrick from Thunderstruck-EV actually purchased the Old Stock of LifeBatt Lifepo4 or is he still thinking about it. I hope he is still thinking about it because if he actually bought the Old Stock he bought an Earlier Formula that has since been abandoned and the New LifeBatt cell chemistry is superior.

The Company in Taiwan had 100,000 Cells to dispose of that were not going to be sold by LifeBatt USA and so if Patrick bought them he Boobed Big Time.

Now for Bob McRee, Gary Goodrum, Rick K. and Myself since you appear very very confused by this part.

We are buying the Raw Cells from LifeBatt and that is the extent of our relationship with Don Harmon. We are not going for Moonlit walks holding hands with Don, No Motel Rooms are involved and it is a 100% Business Relationship that is Limited to our purchasing Raw Cells and using our own BMS, a Non-LifeBatt Soneil Charger and Hardshell Cases made in Mexico of our design. The QC will be American.

Don can beat the crap out of a stationwagon filled with Nuns if he is provoked and so you insult him or what he sells you can expect him to dump on you. IF Don isn''t verbally beating you up you can assume Don has died and then Michelle takes over and that woman is a Rabid Pit Bull compared to Don. Piss Off Michelle and you better hide under your desk.

You came out and said you don't care about Warranties and that is nice but you are alone---very alone. It the Long Warranty fully supported by LifeBatt USA that will sell these Batteries. The Duct Tape wonders that you prefer are from people with a Hotmail account who appear and disappear and would not have a clue what a Warranty is.

I have not made a cent on LifeBatt Batteries and I was the 1st Distributor and was the one who got Harmon into Lifepo4 originally. I have followed Lifepo4 for 5 years from when I used to sell Li-ion Packs to Engineers and Engineering Schools.

I defend Don Harmon because so far he has been the ONLY person to fully support Lifepo4, to risk his reputation and his assets on a Chemistry most of you never heard of 2 years ago. Don has taken a Massive gamble here few would ever undertake and luckily it is paying off well for him, Safe to say a lot of people are now jealous of Don and what he has accomplished and will accomplish in the near future.

You are also confusing what Bob, Gary, Rick and Myself are doing in the E-Bike department. This has Nothing to do with Harmon. The Raw Cells are still $55.00 Each on the LifeBatt Website and have been that way for 3 Months. You for reasons way beyond me think Harmon has Lowered his Cell Prices 50% because of what Patrick is talking about with his $30.00 Cells.

What is happening is Bob and Gary are NOT making a Cent on what they are offering, Rick and I are doing the same thing. We are buying the Raw Cells at Cost (wholesale) and you could get the same prices too if you wanted to buy a few thousand cells in one shot.

What Patrick is paying is far far less than what we pay but ours are newer and Warranty Supported, What Patrick says he can get are just Old Unsupported Cells and if he does not have them on a Boat by now they likely no longer exist.

We NEED people out there on the Lifepo4 to prove how good they are, to tell the World how good they are and THAT is our Advertising the Product. We cannot afford paid Advertising but we are willing to Sell AT COST to early adopters. You my fine fury friend have removed yourself from being an Early Adopter and that is fine with us because there are a limited number of Early Adopters we can sell to and we'd like people who begin with a clear and open mind which yours is not.

Bob, Gary, Rick and Myself would love it if we could buy the Raw Cells for $30.00 like Patrick and we'd make a profit, but for us it isn't about the Profit, it is about perfecting the chemistry and getting everyone on the same page.

We believe that if we can sell enough Battery Packs AT COST now, then maybe LifeBatt will sell us their next Production Run at a lower price and then we can make a modest profit per pack. Anyone who thinks Bob, Gary, Rick or Myself are doing all this to get rich is Nuts.

Andy Reich (Falcon-EV) is NOT a Non-Profit Charity. I know Andy and I Know Andy cannot afford to do what we 4 are doing and no one expects a Retailer to NOT earn a profit. I hope Andy does finally get a Battery Chemistry that will make him steenkin Rich. I originally proposed to Don Harmon that he use Andy to promote his E-Bike Lifepo4 and I arranged for Don and Andy to meet up in Vegas. What went wrong was the Profit Margin for Early Adopters would be so low that Andy would not be able to afford a pack of Gum and so Andy went off to find a Battery that he could sell that earns him a profit.

I admire Andy simply because he has massive Balls and can be a Pit Bull when he sets his mind on selling a Product. He is a good Salesman and his only fault is not his fault re: he cannot afford to have a Customer Technical Support staff. Hopefully when Andy starts to make some real money he can add a Technician to assist him with the Biz and then watch out because then Andy will be dangerous sales wise.

Try and keep this concept in your mind EMF, you keep slagging off Harmon and LifeBatt and if that is what turns you on go for it. But the E-Bike Department has almost Zero Connection to Harmon and LifeBatt the Corporation and what you are doing is Slagging off Bob, Gary, Rick and Myself who are NOT making a Cent on this. We 4 CANNOT exist and get (at cost) battery packs to people without Harmon and LifeBatt on our side.

Don will likely Spank me for this but Every and I mean Every E-Bike supplier in North America has asked Don Harmon to supply them with LifeBatt Cells so they can stop going to China to buy Crap and Harmon rightly so tells them to Piss Off because they have Slagged off Harmon and LifeBatt on these Forums. LifeBatt Cells have gone beyond 6,000 Cycles so far and the BEST anyone getting Chinese Cells can offer is 1,000 to 1,500 Cycles. LifeBatt is the Best the Market has now and everyone offering Lifepo4 except EMF knows it.

Harmon turned over the E-Bike Division to me because he does not need to have people with an axe to grind taking cheap shots at him. Harmon could have just as easily walked away from the E-Bike Market and it took me to convince Don to hang in there, Don turned it over to me, I brought Bob McRee in and Bob added Gary and I added Rick and we may add others as needed during our expansion and testing phase but we are maintaining an arms length from Don because he is working on the Automotive and Commercial side of the Biz and really does not need us pestering him all the time (and we live in fear of Don unleashing Michelle on us).

 

[safe]

I started writing this and Joshua Goldberg pre-empted me. (I would advise skipping back one to read it)

There just aren't that many suppliers for LiFePO4 cells right now. Until the day comes when some serious competition takes place and the sellers start worrying that they can't sell their products we will have to deal with a weak relationship with them.

That was the whole point of the thread...

If a larger volume seller of LiFePO4 can be found who can give us all a great price then we will be in luck. The combined force of a bunch of buyers can drive the price down.

But my guess is that the demand now is so excessive that what little supply is there can afford to not bargain very much.

We are buying the Raw Cells at Cost (wholesale) and you could get the same prices too if you wanted to buy a few thousand cells in one shot.

And that's what I've been trying to get people to realize. If somehow we could "sell" an entire big volume sale online then we could all benefit from that. It's a tricky thing because we would need a lot of agreement and committment. People tend to arrive at their own committment levels at their own rate so trying to make some sort of command to "buy now" tends to not work. (everyone is on their own schedule)

 

[Joshua Goldberg]

Oatnet I now see where you are confused and will explain it

The Prices you are seeing on the LifeBatt Website are NOT for the E-Bike Packs.

The E-Bike Packs do NOT use the LifeBatt Charger or VMS/CMS and the shipping is not from Taiwan.

AFAIK the 48V X 10Ah Pack, Case, BMS and Soneil Charger will be in the $900.00 to $950.00 area.

That Website you are looking at is toast in about 5 days.

The E-Bike Packs will be advertised on Gary Goodrums website.

Hope that removes the confusion.

 

[Joshua Goldberg]

Oh This is Fun

IF you were to do a Bulk Order, say via Patrick of Thunderstruck-EV what happens when the factory realizes they can now afford to drop their wholesale prices by say 50% and what Patrick now has sitting in a warehouse collecting dust costs way more Wholesale than what others are selling Retail. Patrick wins a Darwin Award

The fact is prices on Lifepo4 are coming down now and LifeBatt Lifepo4 are scheduled to fall also once the manufacturer has their new machinery churning out the cells in the Millions. The E-Bike use cells will drop in price.

LifeBatt is not a Shed with dirt floors in China. They are a Big manufacturing facility that just opened within the month, new Made in Japan ISO fabrication equipment and hiring on hundreds of techies. As they grow and they are really growing they can afford to drop prices to clobber the Chinese and get them out of a Market they are lost and confused in.

Can anyone honestly get excited knowing their Lifepo4 Packs coming out of China are wrapped in Duct Tape?

The Chinese are using a 2A Charger, LifeBatt is an 8A. Using a 2A is fine if you wanna read a Russian Novel while waiting for your pack to Charge/

 

[Battboy]

Secondly, we have not changed our pricing since we posted the original prices on our website over 3 months ago. You can also check that yourselves. So once again Oatnet speaks without any real knowledge of the facts. This is just troublemaking from someone who has a grudge and never was a serious buyer for LiFeBATT.

Best,
Don Harmon

Zat so? Are you still charging $455.00 for a 12v/10ah pack? $2,010.00 for a 72v10ah pack?

Let's talk FACTS. Don's original prices were quoted on his website at least (7) months ago, NOT (3) months ago. Here are the published prices for LifeButt product on August 6, 2007, documented in the link I supply below:

1. 12V/10 Ah Module Pack with BMS, Charger + Shipping = $ 455.00 USD
2. 12V/10 Ah Charger (1C Charging rate ) = $ 75.00 USD
3. 24V/20 Ah Module Pack with BMS, Charger + Shipping = $ 1,308.00 USD
4. 24V/20 Ah Charger (0.5C Charging rate ) = $ 100.00 USD
5. 24V/40 Ah Module Pack with BMS, Charger + Shipping = $ 2,415.00 USD
6. 36V/10 Ah Module Pack with BMS, Charger + Shipping = $ 1,005.00 USD

Those are the prices that I said were higher than I could pay, and Don jumped all over me for my opinion. I'd highly suggest anyone that wants to see the REAL Don Harmon in action (I have backups if he edits his posts), check out this link to some of his first post on this forum, and the root of my "grudge" with LifeButt - look at my very reasonable post on August 7th, and look at his reponses:

==========================================================
>> http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1721 <<
==========================================================

And unlike Don asserts, I am a serious buyer for hundreds of LifePO4 packs. I like the promises made about LiFeBatt's chemistry, which is why I am buying cells from Patrick. Patrick offers the price point I need and the warrantee I have come to expect (none). However, I didn't like Don's initial price of $3,800.00 for the 72v20ah size pack I was buying then, which exceeded the target price for my entire ebike offering. And I really never want to do business with someone who was abusive to me in pre-sale ! So while I am not currently a potential buyer for LifeButt, I was at one time - it only took Don's special skills at handling customer objections to lose a boatload of business. Attaboy Don, blame it on the customer, and if all else fails belittle them.

-JD

Well JD, then you should be happy our prices HAVE changed and if you are a serious buyer of hundreds of packs then please don't hesitate to contact me. Personally I have no animosity towards you. If we got off on the wrong note and it was my fault I apologize. We have tried our best to address the e-bike market, unlike any of our major competitors like A123 or Valence has, and often been criticized for our prices. It's not that we are that much different in our pricing than they are but when folks are comparing top-shelf offerings to no-name products one E Bay from China, of course we don't compete! But then again you won't find A123 or Valence selling cheap on E Bay either. We have no reason to do that because the value offering is so far superior that it would make no sense. Our new website is not finished yet but anyone who is interested can look at the site now and use the "Retail Prices" button to view all of our new HPS Pack prices. You can click on this link to go there: http://www.lifebatt.com/new2/ All of our HPS Packs include our 3 Year, 3,000 Life Cycle warranty when used with our approved Chargers and you have to add shipping charges for one week delivery from our factory in Taiwan right now. Many of you will want to consider the e-bike packs that Bob and Gary are offering instead as they are more in tune with what e-bike folks are asking for.

Thanks,

Don Harmon

 

[oatnet]

Oatnet I now see where you are confused and will explain it
The Prices you are seeing on the LifeBatt Website are NOT for the E-Bike Packs.
The E-Bike Packs do NOT use the LifeBatt Charger or VMS/CMS and the shipping is not from Taiwan.

Oh Josh. I'll take your posts in reverse order.

Post #2) The prices I listed are from an Aug/07 posting here, quoting Don's posted LifeButt price list at the time for his EBIKE offering. Those were the EBIKE packs, and the Pricing, that you and Don were being abusive about at the time. To remind you of the facts you so conveniently forgot, he was selling those plastic packs for EBIKES until Bob tried a practical implementation and demonstrated that so packaged, a 72v10ah pack weighed @40 POUNDS, too heavy and way too bulky to be practical for high dollar, high voltage, ebikes. This link should jog your memory:

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?start=30&t=2426

Oh, and after the dismal packaging failure, the next posted LifeButt EBIKE offering was this one in October; the $985 price was $20 less than the August ebike packs, but no longer included shipping:

E - BIKE PANNIER PACK MODULES
Sold in 36V / 10Ah Modules consisting of 12 Cells &
(3) VMS boards in SOFTPAK configuration. Optional
Standard Charger. Customer provides their own case
(shown in Blue dashed outline).
Overall Dimensions: 3.25" x 12" x 7.5" Weight: 13 lbs.

PRICE: $ 810.00 USD / 36V / 10Ah Module
$ 175.00 USD / 36V LiFeBATT Charger

Post #1) Thanks for yet another long off-topic fact-twisting rant, it does more for your image than I could ever manage on my own... And I really love these three admissions:

>> LifeBatt Cells have gone beyond 6,000 Cycles so far and the BEST anyone getting Chinese Cells can offer is 1,000 to 1,500 Cycles.

Ah, so you and Don have stopped saying that "ALL chinese LIFE fails after 3 months," eh chicken little? So now the Chinese Life can supply the same 1000-1500 cycle life LifeBatt advertises on its website? No wonder you and Don were never able to produce the factory tests showing the Chinese LiFe failures, ya know the ones you were quoting when you were trashing THOSE competitors? And those 6000 cycles you now quote, to what DOD, what c of charge and discharge were they, and why isn't this detail splashed all over the website?

>> because if he actually bought the Old Stock he bought an Earlier Formula that has since been abandoned and the New LifeBatt cell chemistry is superior.

Just like the Chinese LiFe, we can count on you to throw out some vauge, unprovable, undefinable flaw with your competitors product, that apparently only you know about.

>>IF Don isn''t verbally beating you up you can assume Don has died

This matches my experience - and not the behavior I am looking for in a supplier my business would depend on.

-JD

 

[oatnet]

Secondly, we have not changed our pricing since we posted the original prices...

Well JD, then you should be happy our prices HAVE changed

Don, I appreciate the offer to sell to me, but from your behaviour on E:S I do not respect, or trust you, and that is a deal-breaker for me so I'll buy sample LifeBatt cells to play with from Patrick instead and rely on other products for production. To be fair, I do believe that LifeBatt will test out to be a quality product. However there many other products out there, poorer or better quality but at price points that make them equally viable, there is no one correct answer for every EV need. I expect the LiFe market will be very competitive by the end of summer, increasing my options.

I did look at your new website - so the price for a 72v20ah pack has dropped from $3800 to $3000, a step in the right direction (if the new price still includes chargers and shipping), but a long way from where I need to be. Here is what I saw on your website:

7210-HPS 72V / 10Ah w/VMS, 2 Terminals 12.6 182 182 161.5 27.7 7.17 7.17 6.36 24 $1,500.00
14410-HPS 144V / 10Ah w/VMS, 2 Terminals 24.5 546 182 207 53.9 21.50 7.17 8.15 48 $3,000.00

 

[Joshua Goldberg]

Oatmeal you're not going to understand this but we have moved beyond August and October 2007 and stuff tends to not remain constant/

When the website first appeared Harmon was still thinking of selling into the E-Bike Market and that dragged on till he gave up and Bob McRee and I took it over.

Means everything that went before the new E-Bike packs are ready to be sold is ancient history. If you want to harp on the past that is your choice but I think most of us want to move on.

Sandia Labs have taken the cells beyond 6,000 Cycles and there is Zero losses so far, they are still holding at 100%. They expect a drop to maybe 80% DOD by the 10,000th Cycle.

Why isn't it Splashed across the Website?

Simple, you are looking at an Old Website, like I said the New Website should be up next week, March 6 or 7.

As for the Chinese Lifepo4 being Crap, Yes 100% pure garbage and unless they start paying Royalties to Dr. Goodenough they are going to find themselves in a WTO Court for Patent Violations.

As for your final comment that you won't deal with Harmon because he insulted you. I can see why he insulted you but you are still lost in space here, You won't be dealing with Harmon for the E-Bike Packs.

Those HP Black Cases on the website are NOT for E-Bikes, Again you've missed the point.

Back when those Black HP Cases came out last year they were all that was available and no way would they work on an E-Bike. Harmon offered them as the ONLY packs available but that has changed when Don gave up on E-Bikes and Bob and I took over and that was in early November.

It means nothing to me or Harmon or anyone if you want to stick with buying Crap from China but picking on LifeBatt just because they are a superior product is silly.

PS it is 2008

 

[Joshua Goldberg]

OY

Oatmeal you are still not getting it are you.

The E-Bike Packs are NOT priced the same as the HPS Packs you just listed. I cannot see why this isn't sinking in. Can we take a Poll here to see who gets it and who does not?

The HPS Packs with VMS and Charger have ZERO to do with E-Bikes---Nuthin, Zip and Unless you are planning on powering a Car or Tractor you need to pay attention to Gary Goodrum's website because those are the e-bike packs.

Like I said the Prices for the E-Bike set up are likely $900.00 to $950.00 for 48V X 10Ah with BMS, Case and Soneil Charger.

Figure on $800.00 or so for the 36V X 10Ah, so for 72V X 10Ah = $1,600.00 minus $100.00 if you use a single charger.

And Yes we are gagging on the Prices too but in time they should come down but no clue when yet.

IF we added a Profit to this $1,600.00 we'd price ourselves out of the Market.

No matter what you feel about Bob, Gary, Rick or Myself we are the only people who are getting these LifeBatt Lifepo4 Systems to Market void of any Profit and trust me this hurts us because we spend all this time without enough profit to buy a stick of Gum. How many Retailers do you know who do this who are not currently in a Rubber Room??

You need to stop thinking Don Harmon and start thinking Gary Goodrum and all will start to make more sense.

 

[Battboy]

Quite Right, Oatmeal - You will not really be buying from LiFeBATT Inc. For e-bikes you will buy from Joshua & Rick (Canada) or Bob & Gary (USA). Forget about getting any LiFeBATT cells from Patrick as he has none to sell. If you check his latest posts he is offering Thundersky NOT LiFeBATT, so once again my friend wrong information! Well, for those who may be following this post and have waded through all the nonsense - here are a few pictures of the new LiFeBATT Plant & Assembly Line from our partners in Taiwan. Stay tuned and check out the new website as it should be finished by late next week. Things will keep changing, as Joshua pointed out, and there is no need to re-hash old history any further. Let's all move on to better ideas and better prices coming in the future!

Best Regards,

Don Harmon





View attachment DSC05694.jpg

 

[safe]

They are a Big manufacturing facility that just opened within the month, new Made in Japan ISO fabrication equipment and hiring on hundreds of techies. As they grow and they are really growing they can afford to drop prices to clobber the Chinese and get them out of a Market they are lost and confused in.

I always feel more confident buying Japanese than Chinese. I know a little about the two cultures as well as the Koreans. The Japanese are fundamentally better to deal with because they have a high regard for the concept of saving face... it really is important to them. However the Chinese have a habit of not only being two faced (which is true for both) but they don't care if one face matches the other. The Japanese might hold some other opinion of you, but if they have a deal they will practically die before they will fail it. I like that. ("Hai")

In a year or two there will be a flood of cheap and well tested LiFePO4 cells to buy... but for now we have to decide between the really high prices for the "known" quality item or take a chance on a Chinese product that might fail on us.

I'm actually starting to think I might just revert back to NiMh for one of my bikes since it was originally designed for it. (it's the one with the hollow frame that holds the cells) By the time those are dead the LiFePO4's will come down in price. A123 cells would fit perfectly in it, but it would cost nearly $1000 to fill it. For $300 I could get that same bike together using NiMh. Had I bought the NiMh last year before the speculative bubble for Nickel I could have got a great deal. (it was at least 25% less back then)

P.S: Taiwan is a step up from Communist China. 8)