* * * Group Battery Purchase * * *

[oatnet]

The HPS Packs with VMS and Charger have ZERO to do with E-Bikes---Nuthin, Zip and Unless you are planning on powering a Car or Tractor you need to pay attention to Gary Goodrum's website because those are the e-bike packs.

Josh, the only reason I mentioned the HPS packs is because of Don directed me to it in this thread. The discussion you have injected yourself into was regarding the Cased LifeButt Don was selling for ebikes in August, and he sent me to that link for comparison. You need to keep up instead of making it up.

But lets talk about powering a car with those specific LifeButt cells - a 144v10ah powered car is only going a few miles at BEST. so you are gonna need a bunch of these packs. At $3000 for a 1.5kwh pack, at those prices it would take almost $40,000.00 to make a decent 20kwh pack with a packaged weight/ah and volume roughly equiilent to SLA. I am sure there would be volume discounts, but I fail to see how this pricing structure and technology works better for EVs than it does for Ebikes.

If you check his latest posts he {Patrick}is offering Thundersky NOT LiFeBATT

WRONG! He did list Thundersky and has some left, and he also listed LifeButt. I don't know if you are intentionally trying to spread disinformation, or woefully misinformed, but as usual you are 100% WRONG.

Now if I know Josh, he will ignore my refutation of his last round of disinformation, and will change his story to spin a whole new set of disinformation sprkinled with ad-hominum attacks, cluless that the only person he is decieving is himself. Lets get some popcorn and watch him at work!

-JD

 

[Joshua Goldberg]

You are missing a single point on pricing. Phostech is the Only supplier of Iron Phospate used in the production of Lifepo4 and since Lifepo4 is a Patented formulae from Dr. Goodenough and he has only Licensed Phostech it means that production of genuine Lifepo4 is regulated by Phostech.

It is up to Phostech who buys their iron phosphate and at what price.

What happened last year was Phostech created 3 Degrees of Purity with LifeBatt getting the most expensive and everyone else getting the lower grades. The Chinese got the worst of the 3 because they didn't see a point to paying top dollar for something that is going to get wrapped in Duct Tape anyway.

The level of Purity dictates the Lifespan of the Lifepo4 (that is the theory anyway) and so the bottom feeders cannot promise more than 600-800 Cycles, the Mid-Grade will be 1,000 to 1,500 and LifeBatt have passed 6,000 Cycles. I think on the new LifeBatt website it says the Cycle Life is now under Warranty for 3,000 Cycles which is up from the earlier esimated 1,500 Cycles. The Sandia Testing is making the 3,000 Cycle Life easier to promise.

Dr. Goodenough holds the Patent, Phostech is the Sole Licensed supplier and those two control the Market. Dr. Goodenough and Hydro-Quebec are atively going after the Chinese now for NOT paying Royalties and the U.S. Customs are going after the Chinese who are NOT paying the Royalties. U.S. Customs is also blocking Lifepo4 Chargers that are NOT UL Certified and most from China are just CE Certified.

Means if U.S. Customs wants they can start seizure proceedings against any of the Chinese Lifepo4 Suppliers and then people who pay in advance for Lifepo4 Packs enroute from China may never see their money or their battery packs.

Valence and A123 are already being sued for Patent Violations.

The Point is: Yes the Prices will fall but the Patent Holder and Phostech hold all the cards and I suspect there will be very few of the current Lifepo4 Suppliers in China who will risk U.S. Customs seizures and so while the prices will fall the Herd will be Culled and fewer Suppliers will be around next year. IF you have a One Year Warranty via a Chinese manufacturrer or Wholesaler and they give up, kiss the Warranty goodbye. Same applies to American Retailers, they will not honor a Warranty if their supplier goes tits up.

PS I personally use Ni-CD & SLA because those damn Lifepo4 are too expensive on my budget.

 

[Battboy]

I am not sure there are ANY Chinese mfg. who have a legitamate Phostech License ?, but of course someone may always prove me wrong ? By Chinese I refer to the PRC not the ROC! In any case if you can buy cells Patrick, Oatmeal - by all means do so. Nobody really will care one way or the other believe me. As for your comment on powering an electric car with HPS Packs, we are already doing it FYI. You really have no idea what the state of the art is do you ????

Have a Nice Day,

Don

 

[oatnet]

You are missing a single point on pricing. Phostech is the Only supplier of Iron Phospate used in the production of Lifepo4 and since Lifepo4 is a Patented formulae from Dr. Goodenough and he has only Licensed Phostech it means that production of genuine Lifepo4 is regulated by Phostech.

So basically, you are saying that the fate of LiFePO4 rests on an operation based out of Don Harmon's garage (TD posted great google earth pictures of the "headquarters"), and this shoestring operation outbid the oil companies for global exlusive licensing for the top-quality cathode material. The leader of this international industry is anti-social Don Harmon, and this industry giant has free time to post wet nasty dumps on anyone who dares oppose him on an ebike forum. Oh, and you are the only one who knows this, and no competing varient formulas will be patented ever.

Does that about sum it up?

PS I personally use Ni-CD & SLA because those damn Lifepo4 are too expensive on my budget.

Hmm. I personally use a variety of LifePO4 packs because I am building direct, personal knowledge of the industry. I guess you just read a lot, and make up the rest.

-JD

 

[oatnet]

In any case if you can buy cells Patrick, Oatmeal - by all means do so. Nobody really will care one way or the other believe me.

I guess a steady stream of disinformation and ad-hominum attacks are your way of "not caring".

As for your comment on powering an electric car with HPS Packs, we are already doing it FYI. You really have no idea what the state of the art is do you ????

I'll tell you what I know about state of the art - it isn't always ready for market. I do see the HPS packaging is different. What is the range of your electric car, how many KWH in the pack, what is the packs weight/dimensions, and how much does it cost? I suspect you won't share these details, because we would just pick you apart.

-JD

 

[Joshua Goldberg]

Oatmeal

You are giving a Quote that I did NOT make. I never wrote Patrick is offering Thundersky. I was not aware of this so it is unlikely I would write that.

Under Disimformation YOU are doing it, that Quote was from Don Harmon. You added my Name to it to make it look like I wrote it.....Naughty Boy

I guess when faced with the Truth you feel the need make fun of your betters and from what I have seen so far everyone here is way above you.

Nice of you to mention powering a Car using the HPS Cells on a Group for E-Bikes.

I only asked Harmon for one price Quote for a chap in Ottawa with a 3/4 Ton Truck who wanted 100 Mile range at Highway speed and the Quote was $32K. This chap went silent and I assume he now on Life Support.

$32K is a lot but at Gasoline Prices up here at $1.10 per liter in a Truck that gets awful gas mileage and the Batteries will wipe out a lot of costly repairs not needed with E-Cars the $32K starts to make sense. Break it down to a 6 Year Life on the Lifepo4 = $5,333.00 per year. This chap easily spends $8K on Gasoline per year and Gasoline prices keep rising while Hydro rates creep up slowly. LifeBatt also has a Lease Back plan to reduce the Price Shock and make the conversion easier.

I cannot give an opinion on Patrick, I know of Brian D. Hall at Thunderstruck-EV because he used to sell Crystalyte Motor Kits and we used Brian to do repairs, but Patrick I have no idea who he is. The fact he deals with Thunder Sky is unfortunate since they are not the best company out there. Thunder Sky offered me the North American Distributorship and I told them where to go....I was a bit rude on the telephone when they called me, strange for me to be Rude I know because I am such a happy cheerful soul with an everso bubbling personality.

Oh and you are correct, I don't follow Endless-Sphere. I only appear now and then. Am Way too busy talking with and trading emails with Adults.

 

[Battboy]

OATMEAL: THAT'S CORRECT. You pick apart what you don't understand. And I won't put our customer's through your ad hominem attacks. You may read about us soon as we continue to become recognized in the market for our excellence in products and warranty. You really will never get it and I won't be feeding you any more information that you will only use to denigrate LiFeBATT. Other's here will understand what I mean and will contact us "off list" if they want to ask something that is meaningfull. When will you ever be posting your acheivements......???? :lol:

Don

 

[Joshua Goldberg]

PS I personally use Ni-CD & SLA because those damn Lifepo4 are too expensive on my budget.

Hmm. I personally use a variety of LifePO4 packs because I am building direct, personal knowledge of the industry. I guess you just read a lot, and make up the rest.

-JD

Oddly enough YES, I read a lot and I speak with the Scientists and Engineers involved with Lifepo4 going back to 2003. I don't need to jump off a bridge onto rocks to know I am going to make a nasty mess on impact. I was field testing Li-ions in 2002 and 2003 and imprting them for EE and Engineering Schools, do I need to field test Lifepo4? When I can afford Lifepo4 I will add them. Right now I have 5 foot high snowbanks and this puppy ain't mobile.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

Just to jump in here with an opinion from a potential future battery customer from a long way away.

This spate of "hard selling" on here, together with the quoting of some, at best dubious, "statistics", isn't doing LifeBatt much good in my view. It's rarely good for business to resort to such tactics, at least not in the society I live in.

Personally, I would be very, very, wary of buying from any company that felt the need to slag off competitors on a public forum. This applies to any product in my view; once an advertiser sinks to the depths of discrediting the competition, then all I can think of is that they have something to hide, or their product can't stand out on it's own merits.

Just my three ha'pence worth from a consumers perspective.

Jeremy

PS: Glad to hear that the LifeBatt cells have passed the 6000 cycle mark. I assume this is full-cycle testing, not the extremely unrealistic 10% charge/discharge depth quoted earlier.

 

[Battboy]

Just to jump in here with an opinion from a potential future battery customer from a long way away.

This spate of "hard selling" on here, together with the quoting of some, at best dubious, "statistics", isn't doing LifeBatt much good in my view. It's rarely good for business to resort to such tactics, at least not in the society I live in.


Just my three ha'pence worth from a consumers perspective.

Jeremy

PS: Glad to hear that the LifeBatt cells have passed the 6000 cycle mark. I assume this is full-cycle testing, not the extremely unrealistic 10% charge/discharge depth quoted earlier.

Jeremy Harris wrote:

"Personally, I would be very, very, wary of buying from any company that felt the need to slag off competitors on a public forum. This applies to any product in my view; once an advertiser sinks to the depths of discrediting the competition, then all I can think of is that they have something to hide, or their product can't stand out on it's own merits."

Jeremy, To what do you refer to as "slagging off" competitors ? We have not mentioned any specific competitors. We have posted links to research and testing of some of our competitor's products which is hardly unethical. I think you are being a bit naive in believing all is equal in any product offering or that people don't want to have the facts in hand before they make an important buying decision ? LiFeBATT has no need to bash the competition, but we are also not shy about exposing the value differences either.

Furthermore, I don't know who quoted a 10% charge/discharge depth - I certainly don't believe it was ME but for clarification here is the latest report I have from Sandia National Laboratories, in New Mexico, USA:

LifeBatt Testing Update:

After receiving your LiFeBatt cells in November of 2007, I began a limited test procedure to evaluate performance. The testing included the following:
1) Capacity measurements at 1C (10A) rate.
Results: Capacity was within specification
2) Ohmic resistance measurement
Results: Resistance was within specification
3) Float current tests
Results: 3.5 volts was selected as float voltage, float current was measured at 0.003A.
4) Ragone Plot from cell capacity measurements at 0.1C, 0.2C, 1C, 2C, 4C, 10C
Results: The Ragone plot looked good - power roll over was at about 1000 W/l, or 600 W/kg
5) Spectral Impedance
Results: The ESR was consistent with the ohmic measurements. The results will be compared with the end of life after cycle testing.
6) Over Charge Abuse Test at 1C rate to 12V
Results: Cell vented at 111C at 11V - Open-circuit at 120C - No fire - Max Temp was 160C
7) 1C Capacity at temperature -40C, -20C, 0C, 25C, 35C
Results: Capacity at -40C is very low (0.3 Ah), -30C (4.7 Ah), -20C (6.3 Ah), 0C (7.3 Ah), 25C (9.8 Ah), and 35C (10.4 Ah) Recharge for -20C and lower is very slow.
8) Cell Utility Cycle Test - This test is at 50% SOC and the cell is charged and discharged at the 4C (40A) rate for 1.5 min.
Results: The cell will cycle nearly 1000 cycles before reaching the end voltage of 3.65V, and then capacity is measured. At present, the cell is approaching 7,000 cycles. Capacity is slowly fading. Operating temperature is about 30C. We expect the cells to exceed 10,000 cycles when the final report is ready to be published.

Summary:
Test results look good
Sandia National Labs
Power Sources Development Dept. Thomas D. Hund

Best Regards,

Don Harmon

 

[drewjet]

8) Cell Utility Cycle Test - This test is at 50% SOC and the cell is charged and discharged at the 4C (40A) rate for 1.5 min.
Results: The cell will cycle nearly 1000 cycles before reaching the end voltage of 3.65V, and then capacity is measured. At present, the cell is approaching 7,000 cycles. Capacity is slowly fading. Operating temperature is about 30C. We expect the cells to exceed 10,000 cycles when the final report is ready to be published.

Don Harmon

Don,

Correct me if I am wrong but they are only putting in and taking out 1 amp hour while it hovers at a 50% DOD? By my calculations that is on a 10% charge discharge. Please correct me if I am wrong.

This is not a very realistic cycle test IMHO

I think an 80% DOD would be much more realistic.

 

[Battboy]

We will have to wait for the final Test Report. I can't dictate Sandia's test procedures and I don't dispute your analysis.

Best,

Don

 

[Jeremy Harris]

Nothing like misquoting, misunderstanding and attacking with bluff and bluster to deflect from the real point, is there, Don?

For the record, here are some hard facts from my comment:

1) I didn't even as much as hint that you, or the other posters in this thread, have done anything at all unethical.

2) I didn't so much as suggest that any products were in any way equal, I didn't actually draw any comparisons at all.

3) I made no comment at all regarding value differences either.

4) You've made disparaging comments (repeatedly, in several threads) about "duct tape" batteries, which counts in my book as "slagging off". To the best of my knowledge, you have no hard evidence of the real performance of these cells, any more than you have for your own (until the Sandia tests are completed).

Finally, you, yourself, provided the data on the 10% discharge/charge cycling, being conducted on LifeBatt cells by Sandia, in an earlier post. I merely restated it.

My point is a very simple one. The attributes that I personally value in any supplier, above all else, are honesty and trustworthiness.

Ask yourself this: Does your mis-quoted response to my observations enhance your reputation as an honest and trustworthy supplier in the eyes of this consumer?

The shame of it is that you may actually have a good product, but it's image is, perhaps, being tarnished by the over-zealous hype. If these cells are good, then they will make their own reputation in the marketplace. If they aren't, then no amount of hype will cover it up.

Jeremy

 

[Battboy]

I just talked to Tom @ Sandia Labs and as he explained he uses HEV Cycle testing which equates to 80% DOD. I hope that helps clear up your question ?

Best,

Don Harmon

 

[drewjet]

I just talked to Tom @ Sandia Labs and as he explained he uses HEV Cycle testing which equates to 80% DOD. I hope that helps clear up your question ?

Best,

Don Harmon

NO.What the heck is HEV?

 

[Battboy]

Nothing like misquoting, misunderstanding and attacking with bluff and bluster to deflect from the real point, is there, Don?

For the record, here are some hard facts from my comment:

1) I didn't even as much as hint that you, or the other posters in this thread, have done anything at all unethical.

2) I didn't so much as suggest that any products were in any way equal, I didn't actually draw any comparisons at all.

3) I made no comment at all regarding value differences either.

4) You've made disparaging comments (repeatedly, in several threads) about "duct tape" batteries, which counts in my book as "slagging off". To the best of my knowledge, you have no hard evidence of the real performance of these cells, any more than you have for your own (until the Sandia tests are completed).

Finally, you, yourself, provided the data on the 10% discharge/charge cycling, being conducted on LifeBatt cells by Sandia, in an earlier post. I merely restated it.



My point is a very simple one. The attributes that I personally value in any supplier, above all else, are honesty and trustworthiness.

Ask yourself this: Does your mis-quoted response to my observations enhance your reputation as an honest and trustworthy supplier in the eyes of this consumer?

The shame of it is that you may actually have a good product, but it's image is, perhaps, being tarnished by the over-zealous hype. If these cells are good, then they will make their own reputation in the marketplace. If they aren't, then no amount of hype will cover it up.

Jeremy

Save your rant Jeremy . Things do change over time and we reserve the right to make "corrections" as everyone understands. Should you wish to take YOUR business elsewhere you have that choice my friend. We probably won't miss you. I will post a link here to Sandia Laboratory's report on their own website by the end of this month. I hope to see one from the "duct tape" manufacturer's as well who you say we are "slagging off"! If they can meet the challenge then I will apologize to you personally. Until then you can spend your money on the cheap stuff and report back to the forum on your own testing results.

Have a Nice Day,

Don Harmon

 

[Battboy]

I just talked to Tom @ Sandia Labs and as he explained he uses HEV Cycle testing which equates to 80% DOD. I hope that helps clear up your question ?

Best,

Don Harmon

NO.What the heck is HEV?

Utility cycles.

 

[Battboy]

80% is a good deep cycle, but as shallow cycles go, it works just fine. For the most part, it is a stress test. 4C discharge and recharge exceed our expectations for recharge. And regardless of depth of shallow cycle, it is a shallow cycle. A very stressfull shallow cycle, so....no worries, all is well.

Don Harmon

 

[Ypedal]

Arguments are like wars... no one ever " wins " :wink:

 

[Jeremy Harris]

YPedal very sensibly wrote: Arguments are like wars... no one ever " wins "

Ain't that the truth.

I make a polite, civil, observation that suppliers arguing the toss might not be in their best interest, in my personal view, and get castigated for expressing that opinion by the very supplier that is trying to sell me product, who promptly engages me in an argument for having the temerity to make a polite observation.

I didn't set out to have an argument with Don, far from it, yet he seems to feel it's good for his business to take a pop at anyone he feels like. The only consolation is that he takes a pop at almost everyone, so I guess it's just his marketing style.

What a very bizarre way to try and run a business, not the way I'd choose to do it, but then perhaps I just believe in old-fashioned values (maybe because I'm a Brit ).

I'm staying off this thread, as Safe's original objective of getting a good value deal for those who want to participate in a group buy has been hijacked by the LifeBatt Mafia, who don't seem to have made us an offer we can't refuse, either.

Jeremy

 

[Drunkskunk]

Don, I'd like to appologise as a user of the forums for the crap being flung here. You seem to be catching it from a couple of members here and that seems undeserved. You've been nothing but helpfull for the forum and the hobby, and have worked hard with the comunity to bring forward a viable product on the cutting edge of technology.

Those of us who are rational and reasonable understand the limits of testing, and the fact that information will change with time. Lifebatt is one of the top batterys on the market right now, and part of the reason for that isn't the cells being as good as they are, but the company support to the comunity, such as you being here to inform us of test results, and to field questions.

There are those who post in this thread who seem to want to dispute that, but I believe they are most likely your compitition posting anonomously, or mentaly unstable. I hope that the actions of these few individuals with nefarious agendas doesn't taint your image of the rest of us.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

Drunkskunk,

Just to set the record straight, I am EXACTLY who I say I am, am absolutely NOT in the ebike or battery business (I'm a bloody scientist, as a matter of fact) and deeply resent the inference that by your reply to my post you might be implying that I'm "mentally unstable" or on some kind of anti-Don Harmon kick (which I'm not).

I made a polite observation, he chose to take a poke, that's all, plain and simple.

Jeremy Harris
SALISBURY
UK

(Google me and include the term "microlight" and you will quickly find out I'm no fraud, or PM my fellow Brit and flying colleague who you've been chatting with on the hovercraft motor thread).

 

[EMF]

part of the Tag Team here

EMF you wrote that anyone here who calls another Member a Moron you would never buy from them, so I guess that removes me from selling you a Lifepo4 pack because I am calling you a Moron.

Question for you, has Patrick from Thunderstruck-EV actually purchased the Old Stock of LifeBatt Lifepo4 or is he still thinking about it. I hope he is still thinking about it because if he actually bought the Old Stock he bought an Earlier Formula that has since been abandoned and the New LifeBatt cell chemistry is superior.

The Company in Taiwan had 100,000 Cells to dispose of that were not going to be sold by LifeBatt USA and so if Patrick bought them he Boobed Big Time.

Now for Bob McRee, Gary Goodrum, Rick K. and Myself since you appear very very confused by this part.

We are buying the Raw Cells from LifeBatt and that is the extent of our relationship with Don Harmon. We are not going for Moonlit walks holding hands with Don, No Motel Rooms are involved and it is a 100% Business Relationship that is Limited to our purchasing Raw Cells and using our own BMS, a Non-LifeBatt Soneil Charger and Hardshell Cases made in Mexico of our design. The QC will be American.

Don can beat the crap out of a stationwagon filled with Nuns if he is provoked and so you insult him or what he sells you can expect him to dump on you. IF Don isn''t verbally beating you up you can assume Don has died and then Michelle takes over and that woman is a Rabid Pit Bull compared to Don. Piss Off Michelle and you better hide under your desk.

You came out and said you don't care about Warranties and that is nice but you are alone---very alone. It the Long Warranty fully supported by LifeBatt USA that will sell these Batteries. The Duct Tape wonders that you prefer are from people with a Hotmail account who appear and disappear and would not have a clue what a Warranty is.

I have not made a cent on LifeBatt Batteries and I was the 1st Distributor and was the one who got Harmon into Lifepo4 originally. I have followed Lifepo4 for 5 years from when I used to sell Li-ion Packs to Engineers and Engineering Schools.

I defend Don Harmon because so far he has been the ONLY person to fully support Lifepo4, to risk his reputation and his assets on a Chemistry most of you never heard of 2 years ago. Don has taken a Massive gamble here few would ever undertake and luckily it is paying off well for him, Safe to say a lot of people are now jealous of Don and what he has accomplished and will accomplish in the near future.

You are also confusing what Bob, Gary, Rick and Myself are doing in the E-Bike department. This has Nothing to do with Harmon. The Raw Cells are still $55.00 Each on the LifeBatt Website and have been that way for 3 Months. You for reasons way beyond me think Harmon has Lowered his Cell Prices 50% because of what Patrick is talking about with his $30.00 Cells.

What is happening is Bob and Gary are NOT making a Cent on what they are offering, Rick and I are doing the same thing. We are buying the Raw Cells at Cost (wholesale) and you could get the same prices too if you wanted to buy a few thousand cells in one shot.

What Patrick is paying is far far less than what we pay but ours are newer and Warranty Supported, What Patrick says he can get are just Old Unsupported Cells and if he does not have them on a Boat by now they likely no longer exist.

We NEED people out there on the Lifepo4 to prove how good they are, to tell the World how good they are and THAT is our Advertising the Product. We cannot afford paid Advertising but we are willing to Sell AT COST to early adopters. You my fine fury friend have removed yourself from being an Early Adopter and that is fine with us because there are a limited number of Early Adopters we can sell to and we'd like people who begin with a clear and open mind which yours is not.

Bob, Gary, Rick and Myself would love it if we could buy the Raw Cells for $30.00 like Patrick and we'd make a profit, but for us it isn't about the Profit, it is about perfecting the chemistry and getting everyone on the same page.

We believe that if we can sell enough Battery Packs AT COST now, then maybe LifeBatt will sell us their next Production Run at a lower price and then we can make a modest profit per pack. Anyone who thinks Bob, Gary, Rick or Myself are doing all this to get rich is Nuts.

Andy Reich (Falcon-EV) is NOT a Non-Profit Charity. I know Andy and I Know Andy cannot afford to do what we 4 are doing and no one expects a Retailer to NOT earn a profit. I hope Andy does finally get a Battery Chemistry that will make him steenkin Rich. I originally proposed to Don Harmon that he use Andy to promote his E-Bike Lifepo4 and I arranged for Don and Andy to meet up in Vegas. What went wrong was the Profit Margin for Early Adopters would be so low that Andy would not be able to afford a pack of Gum and so Andy went off to find a Battery that he could sell that earns him a profit.

I admire Andy simply because he has massive Balls and can be a Pit Bull when he sets his mind on selling a Product. He is a good Salesman and his only fault is not his fault re: he cannot afford to have a Customer Technical Support staff. Hopefully when Andy starts to make some real money he can add a Technician to assist him with the Biz and then watch out because then Andy will be dangerous sales wise.

Try and keep this concept in your mind EMF, you keep slagging off Harmon and LifeBatt and if that is what turns you on go for it. But the E-Bike Department has almost Zero Connection to Harmon and LifeBatt the Corporation and what you are doing is Slagging off Bob, Gary, Rick and Myself who are NOT making a Cent on this. We 4 CANNOT exist and get (at cost) battery packs to people without Harmon and LifeBatt on our side.

Don will likely Spank me for this but Every and I mean Every E-Bike supplier in North America has asked Don Harmon to supply them with LifeBatt Cells so they can stop going to China to buy Crap and Harmon rightly so tells them to Piss Off because they have Slagged off Harmon and LifeBatt on these Forums. LifeBatt Cells have gone beyond 6,000 Cycles so far and the BEST anyone getting Chinese Cells can offer is 1,000 to 1,500 Cycles. LifeBatt is the Best the Market has now and everyone offering Lifepo4 except EMF knows it.

Harmon turned over the E-Bike Division to me because he does not need to have people with an axe to grind taking cheap shots at him. Harmon could have just as easily walked away from the E-Bike Market and it took me to convince Don to hang in there, Don turned it over to me, I brought Bob McRee in and Bob added Gary and I added Rick and we may add others as needed during our expansion and testing phase but we are maintaining an arms length from Don because he is working on the Automotive and Commercial side of the Biz and really does not need us pestering him all the time (and we live in fear of Don unleashing Michelle on us).

After reading this post, I'm afraid you have me confused with another member. For instance, I don't ever recall ever saying I don't care about warranties. I also have made no comments either negative or positve concerning "Duct Tape Wonders" as you call them. At least I don't recall. So, I think you may have made a mistake.

But, you are correct about one thing, I would not do any business with you either and doubt many would after reading that lengthy post. By the way, I am not confused about anything. I read the bit you wrote or most of it anyway.

The only reason I would purchase the LifeBatts is because I want to support Gary and Bob McCree, due to all the work they have done trying to come up with BMS and LVC solution. This is at least the second board Gary has designed, so I imagine he has spent a lot of time then and now with Bob, trying to come up with something we all need. It just so happens that these LifeBatts fit on their boards as they were designed for them. Kind of simple, even for a moron such as myself. So, it would be silly (seems like)not to go ahead and try and get a package or something from them. This has nothing to do with Don Harmon or these other people you mention. However, he did help out on the solution I am interested in, because I read where LifeBatt is going to come up with a good charger as well! If you try and find a LifePO4 charger, you know they are hard to find. I don't know or care where they get the items they are selling, I just want to support their hard work and also the hobby of creating ebikes. I don't recall "slagging" on anybody either.

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

Hey skunk, you need to subscribe to the yahoo! group that is Goldberg's personal cesspool, e-motor assist, to understand who is the source of the problem.
He & Don are just exporting their brand of free-speech to our boring little sphere.

In his group they have openly & freely made fun of their customers, how they're such noob idiots that will swallow any line they feed them.
Of note relative to this discussion is their posts on how to best go about increasing the profit margin on LiFeBatt's, to differentiate themselves from the run of the mill varieties that will soon flood the market.
Don often referred to the Saleen Mustang as an example of how to build in perceived added value so he can charge more.
What you're seeing is him emulating this business model, that by adding racing stripes to a battery & heaping praise on it with a tag-team partner to generate positive buzz he can squeeze out higher percentage points & exact a premium Salleen-like price.

I'm not saying anything negative about the quality of the product, just pointing out where the price premium is originating from.
If you care to waste your time persuing Don's & Josh's posts on other forums you'll find the poo-flinging comes from their corner in every case, so you don't have to take my word on it.
Just giving you the heads up & I'm sure they will retaliate in some childish manner to prove my point, but that's the last you'll hear from me in this thread.

 

[Joshua Goldberg]

to the last Poster I wanted to thank you for the free advertising of my Yahoo Group called e-motor-assist. It is a nice Group who enjoy NOT having to deal with excessive censorship and we have only One Moderator (Bob McRee) and Bob is only there to boot out people who violate the Yahoo Rules and no one has got the Boot for over a year.

This Group as Don and others have pointed out seems to be filled with people out to sell their products and use an ALIAS to hide their true Identity. You might notice Don Harmon and Myself use our Real Names but those who Slag us off hide like little girls behind an Alias.

As Don so rightly pointed out, lets see the Test Results of the Li Ping Duct Tape Lifepo4. The Sandia testing is NOT private. People go on and on about how good all these other Lifepo4 are without a shred of proof via Testing. You really have to ask yourself what these companies are afraid of and why are they not being upfront with customers the way LifeBatt is?

As for my being a rough and somewhat rude and nasty person with people---of course that is who I am, I don't BS people and I Don't hide behind an Alias and IF ya'll prefer to Deal with con artists and people who gladly take your money by telling you what you want to hear that is fine with me. I've been selling E-Bikes & E-Motors for 16 years and I was just as grumpy and rude and honest 16 years ago and oddly enough and a lot of you won't understand this I am still here while almost every other Nice and Pleasant Retailer who saw value in lying has given up or gone tits up.

Those of us who have survived in this Industry more than a Decade are Honest and speak our minds and we don't BS anyone.

There are basically 2 Types of individuals who get into E-Bikes.

Group A seek out information in order to make an informed purchase. They seek the most reliable product within their budget that does what they need the product to do and if it works properly you will NOT see Group A people on Forums like Endless-Despair again for a few years because they are happy and riding an e-assist. They are the Group who need to Breed.

Group B seek out Utter Crap with the hope it will break down, Melt, Explode or Morph and they will be on this Forum and every other Forum and Group where they can suck up as much sympathy as they can from others of thier ilk. They are always crying about how they got cheated and ripped off and they will Slag off Dealers & Manufacturers who they bought from. These people live on these Groups and form Sub-Groups who Gang up on anyone or any business that they decide is the enemy because it is what they do. These are people who should NOT Breed.

Bite Me