* * * Group Battery Purchase * * *

[flip_normal]

So that's a eugenics program to go along with the battery monopoly is it? Sounds like a fun future you've got planned. NOT.

I've learned nothing of value from your ill tempered, self aggrandizing, egotistical rants over the last few of pages.

It really sounds like you need to get laid.

Just seems a pity that apparently decent people like Bob and Gary should be associated with you.

 

[efreak]

must be REALLY quiet at the other place

 

[safe]

The irony is that I created this thread with the hopes of busting the LiFePO4 power structure wide open and find a way to exploit the situation for our collective benefit. I'm not seeing much progress along those lines. If there is to be a "Group Battery Purchase" we will want to seek out low prices... which is not the goal of people selling the products themselves.

So in a sense the "sellers" aren't really supposed to be posting here... this is a place for the "buyers" to build unity towards a purchase.

It's supposed to be about gaining power for the "buyers"... 8)

Of course if I were a seller I'd probably spread as much FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) as I could in order to prevent anyone else from gaining any strength.

Hey guys... I think we've been hit by a FUD bomb...

 

[EMF]

to the last Poster I wanted to thank you for the free advertising of my Yahoo Group called e-motor-assist. It is a nice Group who enjoy NOT having to deal with excessive censorship and we have only One Moderator (Bob McRee) and Bob is only there to boot out people who violate the Yahoo Rules and no one has got the Boot for over a year.

This Group as Don and others have pointed out seems to be filled with people out to sell their products and use an ALIAS to hide their true Identity. You might notice Don Harmon and Myself use our Real Names but those who Slag us off hide like little girls behind an Alias.

As Don so rightly pointed out, lets see the Test Results of the Li Ping Duct Tape Lifepo4. The Sandia testing is NOT private. People go on and on about how good all these other Lifepo4 are without a shred of proof via Testing. You really have to ask yourself what these companies are afraid of and why are they not being upfront with customers the way LifeBatt is?

As for my being a rough and somewhat rude and nasty person with people---of course that is who I am, I don't BS people and I Don't hide behind an Alias and IF ya'll prefer to Deal with con artists and people who gladly take your money by telling you what you want to hear that is fine with me. I've been selling E-Bikes & E-Motors for 16 years and I was just as grumpy and rude and honest 16 years ago and oddly enough and a lot of you won't understand this I am still here while almost every other Nice and Pleasant Retailer who saw value in lying has given up or gone tits up.

Those of us who have survived in this Industry more than a Decade are Honest and speak our minds and we don't BS anyone.

There are basically 2 Types of individuals who get into E-Bikes.

Group A seek out information in order to make an informed purchase. They seek the most reliable product within their budget that does what they need the product to do and if it works properly you will NOT see Group A people on Forums like Endless-Despair again for a few years because they are happy and riding an e-assist. They are the Group who need to Breed.

Group B seek out Utter Crap with the hope it will break down, Melt, Explode or Morph and they will be on this Forum and every other Forum and Group where they can suck up as much sympathy as they can from others of thier ilk. They are always crying about how they got cheated and ripped off and they will Slag off Dealers & Manufacturers who they bought from. These people live on these Groups and form Sub-Groups who Gang up on anyone or any business that they decide is the enemy because it is what they do. These are people who should NOT Breed.

Bite Me

You should try switching to decaf!

 

[Battboy]

How do you "bust open the LiFePO4 power structure" without engaging the sellers who know the most about this supposed structure??? Do you think there is a Matt Drudge among you that knows more than the actual "sellers" do ? Your goal can only be acheieved, for what you set out to do, by inviting the people who actually have the answers to what you are asking.....and now you tell them they are not invited to your party? I really fail to see the logic in all this. If you don't want any of us to contribute - then we will just leave you alone to seek the answers that you cannot find on your own.

Goodbye,

Don Harmon

 

[D-Man]

Money talks, everything else walks. The rich and famous will buy the expensive batteries. People like Safe and others, whose bikes are made from "Toys R Us parts," I doubt will buy those batteries. Most "cheapos" will head straight for the duct tape batterys. Its hard or impossible to convince "cheap" people to buy expensive batteries. All you will get from them is the "Peukert Effect." :lol:

 

[safe]

Your goal can only be achieved, for what you set out to do, by inviting the people who actually have the answers to what you are asking.....and now you tell them they are not invited to your party?

We want bargains. If sellers can provide information about bargains then that's welcomed. But trying to dominate over the buyers with a heavy hand is a bad strategy. From the buyers standpoint we don't want to see "negative campaigning" on a thread that was designed to have a "positive" tone.

People looking for bargains are not going to pay "bleeding edge" prices.

For the near term I'm going to just finish up on my Project #002 using SubC NiMh (since the frame is built for that) and it will work fine for about a year or two for only $300. By then the price of LiFePO4 will be down enough so that for $300 I might be able to replace what I have.

For Project #003 I might go Thundersky or not... but I'm going to get #002 done first.

 

[Microbatman]

Back to biz

I have got lost with all the off topic comments.

Are we talking about putting our buying power to buy LifeBatt batteies here
8Cells for $440

http://www.lifebatt.com/LiFeBATT%20Web_4.html

To get a better price than 440/8= $55per cell.

 

[OneEye]

It isn't likely you will be able to get in the door on the high-end stuff like Phostech/LifeBatt and A123. The A123 folks are looking at firm extended contracts from automakers and their contract with DeWalt/GE. The LifeBatt folks are after the same market, and have stated on this thread (and elsewhere) that the price quoted for loose cells is the price, already discounted to break-even levels for early adopters. Whether you believe their reason or not is irrelevant--you aren't their target market anyway, so the price they quote is take-it-or-leave-it.

I think Safe was looking at going to commodity level stuff from Headway, Thundersky or someone else to get a cheap version of the Lithium-Iron-Phosphate chemistry (either lower grade or royalty-free/patent-infringing). Manufacturers and wholesalers don't like dealing in small quantities, you either pay a price penalty or are locked out below a minimum purchase threshold. Small purchases are the domain of retailers, with the appropriate mark-up so they can make a living (and there aren't very many of them around in the current market, either).

As an example, the Headway cells GreenHornet was posting are quoted only for a minimum purchase of 1,000 cells, and you take delivery at the factory (so you have to make arrangements for your own shipping/import duties/etc.)

I don't think Safe has fully developed where and who he is going to contact to make the purchase, this thread was to try to hash out some of those details and gauge interest. I could be wrong, but he seems to be enamored with the 40Ah Thundersky cells.

 

[safe]

I don't think Safe has fully developed where and who he is going to contact to make the purchase, this thread was to try to hash out some of those details and gauge interest. I could be wrong, but he seems to be enamored with the 40Ah Thundersky cells.

That's the truth... I really don't have answers, I have questions. The idea is to have a place where the buyers can get together to discuss strategies. That's why having the sellers crash the party is sort of wrecking it.

The Thundersky cells with Patrick are a good deal, but I'd like more information about the true shelf life of those cells. The new ones are so new that no one has anything older than a year old (Patrick got some of the new LiFePO4's when they first started making them) so we just don't know how long they really last.

It does sound perfectly reasonable that the Chinese aren't getting the good LiFePO4 stuff yet in comparison to A123 which is definitely the most respected.

The whole process makes me think that there are no good deals that you can be 100% certain about. FUD - Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt... it tends to make you delay your buying process. I've got the NiMh bike to complete first anyway so that will soak up half or all of my summer as it is, so I can wait... no big deal.

For me the battery is just one small part of a very large development project for "just an individual" on a shoe string budget.

 

[Battboy]

Safe, we certainly understand it's hard to get the straight story on LiFePO4. That's why I have tried to help on the forum to give you some perspective. To be clear - I understand where you are coming from and I apologize if you think I am trying to butt in here. LiFeBATT has an e-bike division that is handled by Bob Mcree and Gary Goodrum. They use the LiFeBATT cells with their products which will be available shortly on Gary's website. We do not sell LiFeBATT cells to anybody else even through a "group buy". I can't suggest any sources for "cheap" LiFePO4 in good conscience, because we know they will just not last, and it really will hurt the market in the long run. If you want to play around you can go on Alibaba.com and check them all out. AFAIK the only supplier that uses quality Phostech Lithium materials, other than us, is PHET in Taiwan. You can contact them direct yourself and do some groundwork for your "group buy". I would not recommend dealing with unknown Chinese LiFePO4 vendors unless you like to really gamble and can afford to lose your shirt on a big order. One thing you have to do for your "group purchase" is make sure you have a good customs broker and are licensed to import or you will be paying large fees to someone who already is. It's a nice idea and we wish you the very best in making it happen. On a final note, buying cells is only one component of the total solution that will include a BMS that is designed to work with the packs and a Charger that is smart enough to work with the BMS. But you guys can build these from scratch so I am to understand?

Best,

Don Harmon

 

[safe]

I can't suggest any sources for "cheap" LiFePO4 in good conscience, because we know they will just not last, and it really will hurt the market in the long run.

Well we are in the ironic situation where the invention of LiFePO4 cells is SO NEW that no one can be certain of the long term shelf life for them. After a couple of years we should start to get some early feedback about performance and the battery makers will switch from their first generation offerings to their second and third, etc... Lawsuits will be filed and games will be played, but eventually things will settle down and the battery will become the commodity item:

THAT IT MUST EVENTUALLY BECOME

...in time. So the "early adopters" need to be willing to "bootstrap" the industry with very high prices. But the mainstream will not jump in until the volume increases and people start seeing bargains.

It's very true that in this very early beginning stage quality is going to vary a great deal, but that's going to change really fast, so don't expect to use that argument forever. Once formal testing of all the manufacturers battery options becomes available the "buyers" will start to have the leverage in being able to weed out the bad in favor of the good.

So I agree with you Don Harmon, for now the better battery makers hold the power, but it's not going to last forever and we here will be eager to see a monopoly type situation improve in favor of the buyers.

The "Group Battery Purchase" still has a chance to one day happen... but maybe not yet.

I remember when I first got started in computers back in 1986 and this one programmer I worked with told me about how he spent $10,000 to get one of the first real computers to play with. By then the price was already down to a thousand or so and these days the price is like $300 new. So we will see the same kinds of price drops in the LiFePO4 area. It's going to take time. LiFePO4 is really just a refined chemical... not exactly rocket science once the formula is perfected.

What will be the real "rocket science" battery is one of these microfiber types that demand some really tricky manufacturing processes. That's where the next generation of "leading edge" cells will go. By then the boring LiFePO4 plain cells will sell really cheap. It's when it becomes "boring" that the bargains really get good for the buyer.

 

[TylerDurden]

... for now the better battery makers hold the power...

Waff.

I don't think so... the mfrs have spent a lotta dough and need to recoup cost. That gives the buyers leverage.

Secondary channels like Ping will help keep pricing down... the only people buying lifebatt are beta-testing to see if they meet the hype.

Sure, some people will pay for the hype, like buying from Hammacher-Schlemmer... but the majority will gladly buy "just as good" for half the price.

 

[PJD]

I cant be as optimistic as you all.

The manufacturers are going to try very hard to forge exclusive-supplier and licensing agreements with the manufacturers of the devices that the batteries power - up to, and especially, cars and motorcycles. This gives the supplier guaranteed income, and most importantly, it keeps pesky experimenters like us from undercutting their plans to dominate a particular market.

This is already being done some to some extent - A123 is absolutely resisting selling their cells to anyone by large OEM's they have agreements with. Thus the bizarre practice of having to buy power tool packs, and disassemble them for the cells.

 

[Battboy]

Quite Correct, PJD. LiFeBATT, unlike A123, has made an effort to appease the e-bike market and in fact has formed alliances with experimenters and developers of e-bike products. These developers are members of this very forum. What other LiFePO4 mfg. do you know of who has done that ?

Best,

Don Harmon

 

[safe]

Being Powerless Sucks!

I want to go to WalMart and buy 40Ah LiFePO4 cells for $10 each and then drop off my old ones for recycling....

(hey, I can dream can't I?)

 

[PJD]

But back to the topic, has anyone agreed to buy any Thundersky cells from Patrick?

My only issue so far is that the sale is done strictly at his convenience, and his terms of sale suggest that he isn't aware that it is the customer who is writing the check to a stranger and thereby sticking his neck out the farthest....

 

[TylerDurden]

I wouldn't worry about purchasing anything from Patrick. He's a bona-fide vendor/developer/builder.

If I need more cells, he's the first choice in my book. I have two more builds in the two-wheel category and it looks like another four-wheeler will be picked up when the weather clears.

:?

 

[safe]

...and his terms of sale suggest that he isn't aware that it is the customer who is writing the check to a stranger and thereby sticking his neck out the farthest....

In defense of Patrick he was working here before:

http://electricmotorsport.com/store/index.php

...and is now involved with some other projects which I'm sure he could say more about than I could. He hasn't been seen here for a while, so it's possible he's been busy. It didn't sound like selling here was a profit making venture for him and he was just offering it if we were interested. All he's trying to do is get rid of some excess inventory.

So I second the motion... Patrick seems like a good guy.

 

[fechter]

I third that. Patrick is a good guy.
I don't know if he is selling directly or if you would buy them from Electric Motorsport.

 

[PJD]

I don't know if he is selling directly or if you would buy them from Electric Motorsport.

My understanding is he is selling them himself, at a cost $20 cheaper each, than electric Motorsport. But at the same time, because of other priorities, he doesn't seem to be a very motivated seller, or was hoping the sales would be local with no shipping hassles. I may just go with electric Motorsport if Patrick doesn't respond in a couple days - they have experience shipping and I get the protection of using a credit card.

 

[numberonebikeslover]

it is very good to think of such a think. i say "Unity is strength"

yesterday 7th March, 2008 i bought 75 (Seventy Five) Ni-MH Cells of 3800mAh 1.2V each of US $.483 while a cell of 5000mAh is of 4.50 $ each on following link:

http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=227

and the same kind of very high prices i find on abroad. i'm in Peshawar Pakistan i'm wondering why it is so expensive aborad. it totally discouraged me when i first searched out the internet. i thought i would never be able to make my budget that much to go about my project.

any way Good luck people, i just wanted to share my thought and experience.

 

[PJD]

numberonebikelover,

I have heard before from migrants or visitors how expensive batteries of all sorts are in N. America.

A few very large entities control the market price here. Absent more competition or price controls (I always notice a "Max Rs. XX.XX" on the label of Indan products), I guess the prices will stay high.

 

[rkosiorek]

Safe,

when do we get to see the rest of the 002 bike? i like the looks even though technically i shouldn't cause it ain't got any pedals. but i do like the looks.

KEWL JOB. Stylish.

rick

 

[safe]

Safe,
when do we get to see the rest of the 002 bike?

Well it's 36 degrees at the moment, but by this afternoon it's going to get up to 60 degrees or more. I'm hoping to get my first time in the garage today... maybe do a little cutting and grinding on something.

The #002 will get old fashioned NiMh SubC cells for about $300 and that will do it for now. There's still a lot of fiberglass work to finish and I'm going to switch to a rigid front fork because the suspended one is making me nervous. (I'm worried that the small axle might break because there is no way to use a fork brace)

So I'll get around to it... it's all about the weather...

I'll be trying out my Armature Current Limiting circuit by running a 36 volt MY1020Z3 at 48 volts at up to 60 amps (normal would be 40 amps) and an 8 speed Sturmey Archer rear hub. Top speed should be around 50 mph.