Hi and thanks for reading and for any help anyone can lend! I have a very modded surron running the stock motor with a KLS7230s controller and a 60v Chi battery. I have 2 identical builds like this, mine and my GF's. One runs like a champ and has for years/1000's of miles, but the other has always had a gremlin I cannot figure out. It would always have less power, especially under load like going slow up a hill or long into a ride, like it was overheating. But the thing is, I've swapped out just about everything: new motor, new KLS7230s controller, stock controller, new throttle, new breaker, new battery, new hall sensor, new fuse, inspected all wires, connectors and plugs, performed controller relearn of motor identification angle many times and it still occurs, sometimes it seems a bit better but then crops up in short time. The only thing that makes sense is an out of place motor hall sensor, but I've adjusted that multiple times to get the motor to run at it's fastest and smoothest spot. I've troubleshot what I can with multimeter (throttle, hall sensor, the 3 phase wires as the motor spins past the magnet, removed all accessories and 12v inverter, checked the motor temp w/ infrared thermometer). I don't know of any shops nearby that would work on this so I tried an independent motorcycle shop and they were willing to give it a shot and seemed competent enough, but they spent hours and got spooked because they noticed that with the ignition on but no throttle input, 2 of the 3 motor phase wires were getting "very" hot almost immediately. All I can conclude is that somehow I have been very unlucky and received 2 consecutive motors with damaged magnets, which might explain not being able to get motor hall sensor adjusted to a "happy" spot, the loss of and lack of power, and why none of the other new parts made any difference. Any ideas are greatly appreciated!!!
Help! BLDC motor weird hall sensor like issues. Tried everything
- Thread starter zbone
- Start date
TommyCat
10 kW
Hi zbone,
And welcome to the forum!
Sounds like an interesting problem child. Having 2 builds the same should help with troubleshooting.
What seems to stand out to start with is this...
With the battery disconnected, does the motor "cog" or have resistance when turned by hand or socket?
Does this resistance disappear when the motor's phase wires are removed from the controller?
Does this resistance vary or change when shorting different pairs of motor windings together at a time after being disconnected from the controller?
See this thread for other phase winding testing...
Testing BLDC motor's Phase Wiring - Hall Sensors and Wiring. - Electricbike.com Ebike Forum
This should also help to insure we stay on the same page during conversations.
Good luck, and with regards,
T.C.
And welcome to the forum!
Sounds like an interesting problem child. Having 2 builds the same should help with troubleshooting.
What seems to stand out to start with is this...
This makes it sound as though a couple of windings are being energized with no call for power.
With the battery disconnected, does the motor "cog" or have resistance when turned by hand or socket?
Does this resistance disappear when the motor's phase wires are removed from the controller?
Does this resistance vary or change when shorting different pairs of motor windings together at a time after being disconnected from the controller?
See this thread for other phase winding testing...
Testing BLDC motor's Phase Wiring - Hall Sensors and Wiring. - Electricbike.com Ebike Forum
This should also help to insure we stay on the same page during conversations.
Good luck, and with regards,
T.C.
Can you monitor power in real time? If riding both bikes up the same hill and the same speed, is the slower bike using more power?
Since you replaced everything on the electrical side, have you checked if there's anything on the mechanical side (brakes binding, bad bearings, etc.)?
Hi, thanks for the detailed response! I will try to go through these steps as soon as I have free time and my garage isn’t too cold and post my findings.Hi zbone,
And welcome to the forum!
Sounds like an interesting problem child. Having 2 builds the same should help with troubleshooting.
What seems to stand out to start with is this...
This makes it sound as though a couple of windings are being energized with no call for power.
With the battery disconnected, does the motor "cog" or have resistance when turned by hand or socket?
Does this resistance disappear when the motor's phase wires are removed from the controller?
Does this resistance vary or change when shorting different pairs of motor windings together at a time after being disconnected from the controller?
See this thread for other phase winding testing...
Testing BLDC motor's Phase Wiring - Hall Sensors and Wiring. - Electricbike.com Ebike Forum
This should also help to insure we stay on the same page during conversations.
Good luck, and with regards,
T.C.
zbone
Hi, thanks for your help! I don’t have any way to monitor power. I have been through the mechanical components several times as this issue has been ongoing for over a year, which has just confused me more since it wasn’t always presenting as the same level of power loss.
zbone
FWIW, I have a kelly here that appears to have some internal fault (probably in the MCU, possibly the gate drivers, unlikely hte FETs) that melts phase wires on motors connected to it even just for the initial configuration in the setup program, offground, no load, no wheelspin. (and nothing wrong with the motors).
Yours could have a similar fault, which could just be a wrong (and possibly unchangeable) firmware setting, or a hardware issue such that it is turning on the wrong combinations of FETs so current is pouring thru phase wires when it shouldn't.
If you'd like to be able to do that, there are wattmeters out there to do this job that are pretty cheap and reasonably easy to install (depending on your setups' wiring).
Yikes, yeah that could be what’s going on with me too.
Thanks, but I’ve already done that and now that it seems likely that the controller is dumping too much current into one or two of the phase wires immediately with out any throttle input, doing so again might just damage more motors or worse.
TommyCat
10 kW
Just wanted to clarify that this is in regard to checking good components electrical check-out, to the possible bad components electrical check-out. Where the differences between to two with appropriate testing results would probably be easily seen.
I'm in no way advocating for a swap or remove and replace type troubleshooting.
In this instance, at least not until it was deemed relatively safe to do so by first running electrical diagnostics on the controller and motor separately.
Minimal starting checks were offered in this post. With more specific testing available if desired...
Often, it's easily overlooked that one component or that component's wiring has gone bad. And could have caused damage to another component because of the defect. Thereby ending up with both components damaged... and ready to do more.
Regards,
T.C.
That's a fair comment. I did actually think about it for a while after I posted, but couldn't come up with a good idea to dissipate a few kW safely. For small electronic projects, lab power supply with mA current limit works great. For larger ones, series connection with a 60W lightbulb is a great indicator. But what to do with a controller happily dumping 10+kW into motor wiring?
While browsing some forums the other day, I found some electrician commenting on a setup where a three-phase multi kW space heater was installed in a garage. Something like that could work, but it's the size of a Surron.
While browsing some forums the other day, I found some electrician commenting on a setup where a three-phase multi kW space heater was installed in a garage. Something like that could work, but it's the size of a Surron.
Well…I found a shorted throttle input wire on the controller that melted the insulation off on the controller that is currently on the bike and might explain some or all of the latest issues. I just had hand surgery today and it’s pretty cold so I’m not getting much done. I still think it’s very likely that one or both motors and possibly the other controller that used to be on the problem bike have yet to be diagnosed problems that I will used TommyCat’s tutorial for hopefully soon-ish. Thanks again! You two are great!
Hi T.C.,
I've done a some of the diagnostics you referenced.
1 - There is only cogging when connecting motor phase wires to other motor phase wires with controller disconnected. This is normal, correct?
2 - Resistance between phase wires and phase wires to motor casing are all reading 0.1, which is also normal.
3 - I have not done the spinning of the motor with a drill yet as I was unsure how or where to check for hot windings? Just feel around on the motor housing?
4 - Prior to this current issue I did check the hall sensor with a multimeter, a few times actually, and it was normal. But the odd thing or maybe relevant thing is that I had some success repositioning the hall sensor in the motor. I went off of a tutorial that said to move the hall sensor very minimally in either direction until you find a sweet spot where the motor runs at the highest RPM's and doesn't stutter. This seemed to solve the problem of the bike having low power, progressively losing power on hills, and stuttering, especially when starting on a hill. But, each time I repositioned the hall sensor and seemingly resolved the issue, it would return after a few rides.
5 - I bought a new controller of the same model. Aside from testing for hot motor windings, is there anything else you can think of before I connect the new controller without the risk of damaging it due to a motor issue?
Thank you!!!
I've done a some of the diagnostics you referenced.
1 - There is only cogging when connecting motor phase wires to other motor phase wires with controller disconnected. This is normal, correct?
2 - Resistance between phase wires and phase wires to motor casing are all reading 0.1, which is also normal.
3 - I have not done the spinning of the motor with a drill yet as I was unsure how or where to check for hot windings? Just feel around on the motor housing?
4 - Prior to this current issue I did check the hall sensor with a multimeter, a few times actually, and it was normal. But the odd thing or maybe relevant thing is that I had some success repositioning the hall sensor in the motor. I went off of a tutorial that said to move the hall sensor very minimally in either direction until you find a sweet spot where the motor runs at the highest RPM's and doesn't stutter. This seemed to solve the problem of the bike having low power, progressively losing power on hills, and stuttering, especially when starting on a hill. But, each time I repositioned the hall sensor and seemingly resolved the issue, it would return after a few rides.
5 - I bought a new controller of the same model. Aside from testing for hot motor windings, is there anything else you can think of before I connect the new controller without the risk of damaging it due to a motor issue?
Thank you!!!
TommyCat
10 kW
Correct.
This is not correct, restate or retest. There should be absolutely no contact between windings and motor metal.
Verify this first.
Sorry, phase wires to phase wires were all 0.1
Phase wires to motor housing did not show any resistance reading
Thanks
TommyCat
10 kW
This sounds promising, see this thread for further troubleshooting…
Sur-Ron Hall sensor replacement. - Electricbike.com Ebike Forum
I’ve done everything in the Sur Ron hall sensor tutorial. I repositioned the hall sensor several times and the stuttering and waning power would come back eventually. So, I replaced the sensor and it made no difference. Having done all of that on 2 motors, then swapping controllers, then having a mechanic come up stumped is what brought me to post this on endless sphere. It doesn’t make sense. Meanwhile my other Sur Ron with the exact same components is purring along, mockingly!
That is very strange. The phase wires should not be getting hot like that.
Some way to measure the battery current would be very helpful.
With the rear wheel off the ground you can turn it by hand and see if the resistance is similar. A bad bearing or dragging brake would be noticeable.
Some way to measure the battery current would be very helpful.
With the rear wheel off the ground you can turn it by hand and see if the resistance is similar. A bad bearing or dragging brake would be noticeable.
TommyCat
10 kW
Did you verify that the magnet at the end of the shaft was secure and in the correct position? Making sure the magnet notch aligned with the motor keyway, or the inscribed line on the end of the shaft…
After getting the motor running smoothly with power, did you then possibly run a controller relearn for the motor identification angle?
As this to me would negate the repositioning of the sensor assembly. Say if the controller was giving an inaccurate setting.
TommyCat
10 kW
I’m curious…
If you left the “bad” controller connected, (the one that heats up the wiring) but not powered. Any resistance encountered then? This would certainly indicate a bad controller.
No difference in resistance with “bad” controller. Seems like most reasonable explanation is that I unluckily had 2 or more bad or out of alignment hall sensors. The “bad” controller has the melted throttle wire that I think was due to a damaged and shortening harness wire. Just unsure if that caused more damage somewhere else, especially in that controller?
Thanks again!
Final update (hopefully): I replaced the motor, brand new controller, rebuilt wire harness, new throttle and now the bike has more torque than its twin that I ride! I didn’t find any shorts or bad connections in the old harness. When the new controller tried to learn the old motor it would take a long time and seem like it was doing the usual starts and stops but then would throw a hall sensor error, but it’s a new hall sensor and I checked it with the multimeter, so I think that motor has a bad magnet, even though the magnet has not moved from its keyway on the shaft. I also didn’t have any of the phase wires or motor overheating that the mechanic said spooked them, and definitely no overheating w/o throttle input. So stumped there but happy to have my riding buddy’s bike back in action! Thanks again everyone for your help and humanity!!!
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