How do police test compliance of ebike (Australia)

[Sunder]

Apparently there is a second ISO standard defining "continuous power" and they used this standard. (As I understand, it is referenced in en15194)

That test is defined in ISO 60034-1. Basically, it's to test for overheating. A 1000w motor will pass, since it won't overheat when running at 250w output.

It doesn't matter that a 250w motor will overheat at low speed. Part of the test is to determine its most efficient zone, then the over-heating test is done at that speed.

Thats not how I read the standard. My reading is that if must have a maximum continuous power of 250w. If it passes ANY test over 250w, the maximum is therefore over 250w and therefore not compliant.

So a 1000w motor will "pass" the overheating test. Therefore it fails the compliance test.

 

[Hillhater]

Do you really imagine any of this ever happening in Au ?
from what i see , they cannot even enforce the Helmet requirement for cyclists !

 

[Sunder]

Depends what you mean. Hundreds of people get fined for not wearing helmets a year. I'd say that's enforced.

If you're talking about getting a high level of compliance with the law, then arguably, even the murder laws aren't enforced.

 

[d8veh]

Apparently there is a second ISO standard defining "continuous power" and they used this standard. (As I understand, it is referenced in en15194)

That test is defined in ISO 60034-1. Basically, it's to test for overheating. A 1000w motor will pass, since it won't overheat when running at 250w output.

It doesn't matter that a 250w motor will overheat at low speed. Part of the test is to determine its most efficient zone, then the over-heating test is done at that speed.

Thats not how I read the standard. My reading is that if must have a maximum continuous power of 250w. If it passes ANY test over 250w, the maximum is therefore over 250w and therefore not compliant.

So a 1000w motor will "pass" the overheating test. Therefore it fails the compliance test.

I've just re-read my copy of the standard. I didn't find any wording to that effect. If you have some, can you post it here?

 

[Sunder]

I've just re-read my copy of the standard. I didn't find any wording to that effect. If you have some, can you post it here?

It appears to be a versioning difference. I have an older one that says:

4.2.7 Maximum power measurement
The maximum continuous rated power shall be measured according to EN 60034-1 standard, clause 3.2.1 Duty type S1.

EN 60034-1 is a IP protected document, but India publishes it for free here:

https://law.resource.org/pub/in/bis/S05/is.iec.60034.1.2004.pdf, page 13 of the file (Document is paginated differently).

The confusion is that EN 15194 is written as a maximum, but EN 60034 is written as a minimum. So passing EN 60034 is failing EN 15194.

The test is "Operation at a constant load maintained for a sufficient time to allow the machine to reach thermal equilibrium"

So you apply say a 260w load to allow for some measuring error. Eventually, this motor will do one of two things -

• 1. Reach a thermal equilibrium and continue operating. If it does, it passes EN 60034, and fails EN 15194.

• 2. Burn out. If it does, it fails EN 60034 (at that power level), and passes EN 15194

Does this make sense to you now?

The newer 2009 standard says:

4.2.7 Maximum power measurement
4.2.7.1 Measurement at the engine shaft
The maximum continuous rated power shall be measured according to EN 60034-1 when the motor reaches its thermal equilibrium as specified by the manufacturer.

NOTE Thermal equilibrium: temperatures of motor parts do not vary more than 2K per hour.

In circumstance where the power is measured directly at the shaft of the electronic motor, the result of the measurement shall be decreased by 1,10 to consider the measurement uncertainty and then by 1,05 to include for example the transmission losses, unless the real values of these losses are determined.

4.2.7.2 Alternative method
When the power is measured at the wheel, the result of the measurement is the reading value. Annex D gives guidance on how to measure the power at the wheel.

This is essentially the same test, except that:

1. It stipulates that the test should be conducted once the motor has reached the thermal equilibrium specified by the manufacturer, and stipulates thermal equilibrium variance to 2k per hour, so that it is not necessary to destroy the motor. If the motor changes by 3k in less than an hour, it passes, because it's not "thermally stable" at that level of load. The manufacturer could probably game the system by under-declaring the thermal equilibrium level, but this is likely to be exposed during testing, if the testers are diligent.

2. An alternative test method can be chosen.

If this still doesn't make sense, set me up a scenario, and I'll try to explain why that won't be accepted. E.g. in LFP's example of destroying a motor. Let's say he puts up a 10KW motor to be tested.

1. If you apply a 250w + 10% + 5% variance, or 288w load to the system. A 10kw motor run at 288w for an hour, will not even vaguely get warm. It will fail.
2. If you apply a 11kw load to it, (i.e. hold the motor still), you will destroy the motor. But 11,000w is >288w, so the real maximum of the motor is somewhere between 288w and 11000w. You haven't proven at all that the motor has a maximum of 288w, and your test will be rejected.

 

[Punx0r]

I assume in a normal 60034 test the conditions are as per the nominal (name plate) ratings of the motor? These aren't known for many ebike motors, so how is it done? Is it simply 250W load applied at the speed corresponding to the road speed limit of 15/20mph? Otherwise I think this might be what Luke is alluding to - even a big motor put under 250W load at very load speed will fail.

 

[d8veh]

You're making your own interpretation of EN 15194. The Motor must have a "rated" continuous power of no more than 250w. To pass the rating, the test is EN 60034. As long as the rating passes (no overheating), the motor complies with EN 60034. There's no rule on how the rating should be chosen.

 

[liveforphysics]

There is some speed at which ANY motor overheats in delivering 250w output power.

It can take many many kW of heating a motor to make 250w output power in the right loading situation for any motor.

 

[Sunder]

You're making your own interpretation of EN 15194. The Motor must have a "rated" continuous power of no more than 250w. To pass the rating, the test is EN 60034. As long as the rating passes (no overheating), the motor complies with EN 60034. There's no rule on how the rating should be chosen.

That's a... very odd thing to say. So you're saying, I could put a Cromotor with a 10kw controller on a bike, rate it at 250w, test it at 250w, and as long as it doesn't overheat, it's EN15194 compliant? (Subject to other requirements like cutting power at 25km/h of course). So... Why aren't there masses of these bikes out there? It just doesn't pass the sanity check. It means you could use any motor you like, and run it at any power level you like. In other words, it's not a limit at all.

I'm arguing that if it's possible to rate the motor above 250w, then the motor can't be used. However, as long as you've tested well, you could spike well above 250w, because the motor can soak the heat (and in the test, it's expected to soak enough energy to raise the temp at least 2*k of heat within an hour - less than this and the motor is too big). This effectively puts a power limit on the bike

Seriously, which one makes more sense? Can you look me in the eye and tell me that they wrote the standard, with the intent of allowing unlimited kw motors, as long as it doesn't overheat at 250w?

There is some speed at which ANY motor overheats in delivering 250w output power.

It can take many many kW of heating a motor to make 250w output power in the right loading situation for any motor.

I am in absolute agreement with you on that aspect.

But a compliance inspector doesn't want it to burn. He wants it to survive, so he can mark the bike as non-compliant. Unless there is a way to make ANY motor survive at >250w for an hour, (between the test conditions of 5*C and 35*C, with wind speeds less than 3m/s - Already thought of making it a super conductor in liquid helium ) then this is an effective test to limit the power of these bikes. Taking my interpretation, it achieves that.

 

[Punx0r]

The Motor must have a "rated" continuous power of no more than 250w. To pass the rating, the test is EN 60034. As long as the rating passes (no overheating), the motor complies with EN 60034. There's no rule on how the rating should be chosen.

I agree with Sunder. The key here is "no more than" 250W when tested as per the procedure in 60034. 60034 establishes that the motor meets a given duty cycle at the rating given by the manufacturer (S1 - continuous in this case). The exact requirements of 15194 over-rule those the referenced standard (60034), it's just borrowing the established test method, which is common practice (and sensible to avoid pointless reproduction).

I've skimmed 60034 and can't find an explicit reference to what operating speed the test should be performed at, but since it's checking the manufacturer's power rating, it makes sense for it to also be at rated (nominal) speed.

 

[nutnspecial]

Time to integrate switched or easily swappable phase wiring. . .

Yah, I know, if 'they' get down to business, they'll use their own controller setup. It's all about the motor, which is still silly imo.

It's like attempting to limit/enforce all the pedal biking people to a median (or lowest common denominator) of human power output, and the median of what bike performance is available for the money. Expensive road bike VS clunker, VS fit light person VS heavy unfit person, VS uphill VS downhill . . . . .

The motor laws don't take terrain, personal fitness (or size), or use of bike into account.
Same as with cars, I say regulate as needed by weight beyond a 'reasonable' bike weight, and apply/enforce speed limits . . . for ALL bicycles, whether E or not!

 

[SaladFish]

Apparently RMS have in the past used a motorcycle dynomometer to test a pedlec and some petrol power assist bikes for a bogus report.

http://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/downloads/motorised-bicycle-tests.pdf

Interestingly they used full throttle on the petrol assist bicycles and gentle pedaling on the pedlec to skew results.

To ensure I am on the inexpensive side of 200 watts I would need to configure the ebike to produce less than 200 watt on a motorcycle dynomometer. A bicycle dynmometer would be more accurate for measuring 200 watts.

If I am limited to 200 watt then I would be inclined to not use an inefficient upright bicycle instead opting for a streamlined recumbent bicycle. This would produce superior speed and attention from police. Streamlining isn't illegal though so they can suck a big one.

 

[Sunder]

Interestingly they used full throttle on the petrol assist bicycles and gentle pedaling on the pedlec to skew results.

Page 25 (appendix) - they describe that they repeated the test with "hard" pedaling as well. It's not clear which set of data they used.

Full disclosure here though, I'm glad they banned petrol bikes. Gave us all a bad name, and a mate of mine who is a traffic lawyer, said that the first thing his clients did after losing their licence, was to buy a petrol bike. He reckoned about half of them came back within 6 months for riding an unregistered, uninsured motorcycle without a licence.

Also, my experience was back then that electric riders on the shared paths seemed mostly a lot more courteous than petrol bike riders, whether those electric riders were professionally assembled pedelecs, or duct tape based China kits.

 

[liveforphysics]

... 'they' get down to business, they'll use their own controller setup. It's all about the motor, which is still silly imo....

If you get to use your own controller, then you can easily run the motor in a way to let any motor pass the test or any motor fail the test.

It is also true since they don't spec and operational for the 250w output, ANY MOTOR on earth can be made to pass the test (by overheating) quite easily, even my 70HP Zero SR.

Bare in mind, 250w output at 1rpm is 1760ft-lbs. If you have something that can do that continuously (not impossible for something you could put on an electric bicycle), simply drop to 0.1rpm and you're at a comfortably passing 17,600ft-lbs of torque to deliver 250w.

To ensure I am on the inexpensive side of 200 watts I would need to configure the ebike to produce less than 200 watt on a motorcycle dynomometer. A bicycle dynmometer would be more accurate for measuring 200 watts.

As a guy who has spent hundreds, if not thousands of hours testing vehicles on motorcycle dynos, I can tell you decisively the operator at those power levels is just making wild guesses at what 200w measured may be, because the range of precision of even the flag-ship model motorcycle dyno's setup and tuned-in at the headquarters of the dyno mfg are still >+-200w output measurement. When you jump on a pedal bicycle on a motorcycle dyno and give it your most powerful sprint into the pedals, they stay sitting at 0hp typically, may occasionally flutter between 0hp and 0.5hp if you're really strong at pedaling.

This is because the dynamic range of a tool designed to measure 250hp needs absurdly precise 80ppm resolution (less than 1/10th of 1%) to even see 200w, let alone bracket a range above and below it with any useful margin of accuracy to know if he was +-300w of "200w" during the tests anyways.

If I am limited to 200 watt then I would be inclined to not use an inefficient upright bicycle instead opting for a streamlined recumbent bicycle. This would produce superior speed and attention from police. Streamlining isn't illegal though so they can suck a big one.

Just as before this threads discussion, and perhaps what your fellow Aussie mates have already figured out, is that the ebike you choose to build and ride has been only limited by your creativity in building and your judgement in riding in a way to not get harassed.

Contrary to apparent popular belief, when someone arranges some droplets of ink in certain patterns on the pages of a book in some 'law-library', it does not actually in anyway impact the physics of the motor/controller/battery/tuning interaction in the vehicle you construct, anymore than speeding tickets stop cars from speeding. It is a possible choice in self-imposed-fantasy that it does, like having an imaginary friend if that offers you some solace.

The trick is to treat everyone in your environment as though they were loved and respected family, and tread gently in silent competent riding as needed.

It's so confusing they would ban the stink-bikes from DUI drivers... Please put them on a bicycle if they like to drive and transport themselves! This should be something they are given mandatory with each DUI, it's obnoxious and loud enough it can't sneak up on anyone, and if it hits you at full speed you're so much more likely to survive it than the alternative vehicle options.

Before something is banned, it should be required to create a safer, lower-enviromental-footprint alternative as an available option. Otherwise it's a false economy of 'ruling' oneself towards faster mass extinction in the name of 'public safety.'

 

[Hillhater]

Apparently RMS have in the past used a motorcycle dynomometer to test a pedlec and some petrol power assist bikes for a bogus report.

http://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/downloads/motorised-bicycle-tests.pdf

Interestingly they used full throttle on the petrol assist bicycles and gentle pedaling on the pedlec to skew results.
.

As LFP said, accurately dynoing a 200w bike is practically impossible outside of lab conditions ( so not going to happen !)...and as for getting a motor power reading from a pedalec...well, that is just a joke !
Can anyone say they know of an Ebike ever being power checked by police in Australia ??

 

[d8veh]

Seriously, which one makes more sense? Can you look me in the eye and tell me that they wrote the standard, with the intent of allowing unlimited kw motors, as long as it doesn't overheat at 250w?

I was a quality manager in the automobile industry for 20 years. I therefore have spent a lot of time studying standards. What might have been intended and what is written often don't tie up. Only what's written counts.

No, you can't put a Cromotor in a bike and rate it at 250w, because it's rated at 6kw continuous, which would make it non-compliant with EN 15194; however, it would pass the requirements of EN 60034 regarding rating.

 

[Rube]

Ok I'll bite, I've worked under vehicle standards legislation and participated in compliance activities for heavy and light vehicles.

The system is risk adverse and illogical. The individual wears the onus to demonstrate compliance. Police and transport officers can understand the reality of 250w/ pedal electric, it's not rocket science.

Ebike compliance tests are almost impossible to enforce especially with the resources available and cost of testing. That doesn't mean authorities will refrain from enforcement. Once an infringement is issued the operator is disadvantaged. The system relies on operator to challenge the infringement. Guilty until innocent/ why would they care if it is overturned?

If you are over 25km/h or there is reasonable suspicion of non-compliance expect to be at a disadvantage irrespective of enforce-ability. That doesn't mean you won't prevail but preventing suspicion of non-compliance (behavior or appearance) is a huge advantage. To prevail you need to be prepared to donate your time to challenging the system and if you know you are non-compliant you need to lie.

Btw now that I don't do that anymore I'm building a non-compliant 3kw commuter setup. I'll let you know if get any grief

 

[Sunder]

Seriously, which one makes more sense? Can you look me in the eye and tell me that they wrote the standard, with the intent of allowing unlimited kw motors, as long as it doesn't overheat at 250w?

I was a quality manager in the automobile industry for 20 years. I therefore have spent a lot of time studying standards. What might have been intended and what is written often don't tie up. Only what's written counts.

By the same token, what is read and what is written don't tie up. What I read is a standard that makes sense and can be enforced (if only in a lab, hence the newer version having a field testing methodology). But I guess at this point, there's not much point arguing. If what you read doesn't make sense, then it doesn't need to make sense to you, just the person implementing the law.

 

[Punx0r]

Thanks for sharing your experience, Rube

 

[MJ85]

Not that it's of any use to you but here's the view in the Netherlands. I'm a cop and here's how i treat ourselves and a general view of the rules;

Here ebikes are qualified as a "normal" cycle if;
Motor can only be engaged with pedaling. Throttle only works in PAS mode. All assist stops at 25km/h and nominal power is max 250w. No extra insurance needed.

Speed pedelecs,
Rules about these are still in a sort of twilight zone. General idea is that the motor doesnt put out more then 3kw nominal and you have to add a blue plate to your ebike classing it as a moped meaning it's insured for atleast plain liability. As there are new rules coming in 2017 beeing concocted under EU rule, you currently dont have to wear a helmet.

So how do i treat ebikers;

Saw a dude racing his bbshd flying by other cyclists doing atleast 45kph on a allready crowded bike lane swerving in and out, overtaking like a posessed man and didnt have a blue plate. So he's basicly driving a motorized vehicle without insurance and he didnt have a moped license (Yes, we have that here [FACE WITH TEARS OF JOY]) and that would total €300+ in fines easily. I stopped him and gave him a choice; The fines and be done with it or hand over his dolphin pack and show up at the police station with a downtuned bbshd or add a blue plate. He chose the last option and i told him to beware of his speed comparing to other road users.

That's my approach atleast. I have collegues that would, well within Dutch road regulations, impound the bike for technical review(Yes, it will get dyno'ed). You will get above fines and a fine for the excess power from 250w. If caught for the first time you usually get the bike back with a final warning not to drive it again on public roads untill you comply with regulations. This decision is made by our Officier van Justitie (aka District Attorney). If you keep riding it that way and keep gettin caught, the DA can opt to send your bike to the shredder and take in your entire drivers license e.g. losing your ability driving a car/motorcycle/lorry etc.

Now my personal views; Well in the Netherlands we have more bikes then residents. I'm seeing more ebike related accidents happen, with the added speed comes an increased severity of injury. I feel the normal ebike rules are fine. I do believe there's a place for speed pedelecs aswell, but a helmet should be mandatory and the max power of 3kw nominal is on par with normal mopeds. That gives it some leeway, seeing a qs205 is 3kw nominal and we all know what speeds that thing is capable off. Like gas mopeds that reach 60km/h out of the box, their legal speed should be limited to 45km/h and in an urban area (50km/h zones) should be driven on the road, same place as cars/motorcycles. Extra-urban the bike path should be preferred. I would like to see moped max speed increased to 50km/h as to not hold up the traffic flow and not get that chased-by-car feeling.

As with all things; Many different views out there about this and with good reasoning, just understand that my underlying thought is to keep people safe and not fining them beyond recognition just because i can.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn MI MAX met Tapatalk

 

[d8veh]

That's my approach atleast. I have collegues that would, well within Dutch road regulations, impound the bike for technical review(Yes, it will get dyno'ed). You will get above fines and a fine for the excess power from 250w. If caught for the first time you usually get the bike back with a final warning not to drive it again on public roads untill you comply with regulations.

That all makes sense except one thing. When you dyno the bike, at what output power will they decide that the bike is non-compliant?

I can tell you that an average certified compliant Haibike with a Yamaha crank motor would show about 540 watts at the back wheel. Other certified compliant bikes make even more. Even the cheapest compliant bikes with "250w" Bafang hub-motors make about 500w at the back wheel.

 

[MJ85]

That's my approach atleast. I have collegues that would, well within Dutch road regulations, impound the bike for technical review(Yes, it will get dyno'ed). You will get above fines and a fine for the excess power from 250w. If caught for the first time you usually get the bike back with a final warning not to drive it again on public roads untill you comply with regulations.

That all makes sense except one thing. When you dyno the bike, at what output power will they decide that the bike is non-compliant?

I can tell you that an average certified compliant Haibike with a Yamaha crank motor would show about 540 watts at the back wheel. Other certified compliant bikes make even more. Even the cheapest compliant bikes with "250w" Bafang hub-motors make about 500w at the back wheel.

Very good question! one that i have asked myself and our forensic department about (vehicular investigation is under their department). It seems the DA keeps a fixed margin (of error so to speak) and detracts that from the total output rating. They, and this is referring to tuned gas and electric vehicles, get tested on calibrated dyno's. Like a DUI here, the total of ug/l gets lowered in favor of the suspect (yes, you get to be a suspect, so you have the right to remain silent and police has to prove you are wrong) to eliminate all possible technical error.

Yet again, the bosch/yamaha/bbs02 driving 250w dude would pale against a cyclone/bbshd. Aswell as the speeds and therefore the risks/dangers taken by the bosch driver are in under normal circumstances
less then on the higher powered ebikes.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn MI MAX met Tapatalk

 

[LockH]

These compliance regulations jus seems silly, overly complicated, and really serves no perceived intended purpose,.... that being to regulate the actions of the operator in a specific manner.

Yup. Watt he said. All these laws and regulations clearly don't work... based on numbers of injuries and deaths and property damages... EVery day.

My vote? Regulate (fine) the operator ("driver", "rider", etc) and NOT the vehicle itself. With fines going up (rapidly) based on vehicle weight and based on Stupidity Level. (Riding past too close to a doorway, etc etc... long list where "stupidity" is involved.)

Re the OP in this thread... "Police test compliance"? Why, because operator was misbehaving like any "normal" pedestrian or vehicle operator? Just curious...

 

[Hillhater]

MJ85,
Thanks for your experienced input and view from NL, that sounds much a more mature application of the law than our vague set of rules.
Do you have an Ebike yourself ?

 

[MJ85]

MJ85,
Thanks for your experienced input and view from NL, that sounds much a more mature application of the law than our vague set of rules.
Do you have an Ebike yourself ?

Thanks! And not yet, waiting for my bbshd to arrive in a couple of days so i can mount it to my cube analog . It's going to be my first build. Initially wanted to go for qulbix/qs205/adaptto combo but the Dutch IRS got to my money first. And in hindsight, it might have been a bit of overkill anyway. There's one vendor on aliexpress selling the EEB with qs205, completly done for 2800$ US. Shipping was 700 euro's though and that kinda threw me off next to the uncertainty in battery cells what you'll get. Sure they promised sanyo GA's, but past experiences with buying in China didn't help

I think its the same vendor that Andy Kirby bought from. Still, went for the safer and cheaper option to start with.