How do the experts handle front wheel lock up?

[amberwolf]

We have a lot of that kind of stuff around here in Phoenix area and surrounding cities--and the sand is even worse, cuz you cant' see it either but it makes for great drifting.

There aren't any guaranteed ways to recover, and even the unguaranteed ones arent' always safe to use unless you're the only one on the road and it doesnt' point at a cliff.


With CrazyBike2, which is the closest thing I have to yours, and the easiset of my bikes to slide when losing front wheel traction, when I encounter front wheel skid the first thing I do is point the wheel in the direction of the skid, while ceasing any braking or acceleration, and hope that keeps me from going down.

If the bike has already tilted far enough over with the wheel out from under it, you may not be able to do anything about it. My reactions are not that fast so at your speeds I probably couldn't do it; you might be able to.


The only other thing I can say is if it's too late to do anythign else, is to pull your hands and feet in, don't let go of the bars, dont' try to stop your fall, and let the slide happen. Try to do what you can to make sure the bike is going first, and you're behind it, and once you're already mostly on your side pull up on the side of the bars away from the ground to keep as much of you as you can off the ground while sliding.

(on CB2 this really helps because of my seat design--the frame of the seat keeps me from rubbing on the ground in a slide if I do this; it won't help much on a regular saddle--you could add vertical side bars to yours like some motorcycles have, front and rear, so your legs and feet aren't on the ground in a slide).


The only other thing I can imagine that *might* help is rather whimsical, and tha'ts to attach a push broom in front of the front wheel, to sweep away the gravel as you go. I don't imagine this will actually work, but it was a funny thought I had just now.

 

[John in CR]

I think I'm switching to rear brake only until I need more force, because this case I was going almost perfectly straight and not fast....just slowing for the stop sign ahead. I really don't want to go the protective gear route, because it absolutely makes me ride more aggressively, so the same thing will happen at higher speed. Maybe a leaning trike is the real answer....wheels can't suddenly disappear from under you.

I may be indestructible, but that doesn't mean I'm scratch and dent proof.

 

[hydro-one]

darn, too bad about them wires!! I find soft knobbies handle these types of pebbles alot better than harder street slicks. What is your weight bias when on the bike? mabye you are too far rear biased to get good traction. Seeing the pictures all i can think of is carelessness that caused this. I usually go down at least once a year when it freezes. then i put on my studs.
But essentially dont try to turn or deviate from straight line unless you can determine that you have the traction first. wither by seeing it or by feel. also i sometimes can drop a foot to jam myself back upright. this usually results in a very bruised heel, which can be worse than going down.......but then again ice dosent shred u up like concrete can.

gloves. - i know you dont want to hear it. but i dont know how anyone can ride without them, my hands sweat and then i cant hold onto the bars.....glove prevent that and allow you to grip TIGHT under all conditions. .also they have other benifits which i hope youll give them a chance to prove thier worth in the future.


ps i ride on frozen roads half the year, i used to do this without studs, and i got good at riding the traction areas, then going straight when on pure ice. newtons laws.

 

[John in CR]

Hydro,

You're right, it wasn't dead straight, so a slight arc plus the crown of the road, meant I was down as soon as the front lost grip. I think predominately rear brake with 3 forces of regen (ABS) plus rear disc is my best answer. Then front is as need for emergency braking and if the rear come loose I'm not down. If I had ice in the mix I'd just stay home keeping the wifey warm. Ice is bad enough on 4 wheels. Snow okay, no bid deal, but ice, no thanks. 69 or 68 (do me and I'll owe her one) are much more appealing than smacking the frozen ground.

Gloves etc, yes I understand, but being absolutely exposed means anyone but a retard will ride more carefully. Luke had no helmet or equipment when he was down, and I guarantee he rode more carefully. It's human nature, just like walking along the edge of a cliff a normal person will tread with greater care. My target is no crashes, not protection in the event of a crash. This was more of a slide leaving a bit of skin behind, and as long as I learn not to repeat, then I'm better off for it. 8)

John

 

[Ykick]

John, you're not Luke. Or, Dogman or any number of us who've been to the edge and crossed over enough to know better. Unless I've missed something, how long and/or how much have you ridden motos?

Some people may never need protective clothing but it's not because they're made of special material. It's dumb luck, plain and simple. I don't always wear every conceivable piece of gear but even for the most experienced, law's of "shit happens" can and do apply. I accept that risk but only do so very carefully and with full attention to my situation.

The "rear brake will fix it" is a common component to these evolving lessons. Seen it many times but it's merely another way of fooling yourself from the inevitable. Make all the excuses you want about it, fact remains it hurts a helluva lot less wearing just mild protective clothing.

 

[mdd0127]

[youtube]Y7fn1XndE3o[/youtube]

I used to slide the front wheel on my xr600 out regularly on my daily commute up to the lodge at Mesa Verde. I wore/wear army boots all of the time which aren't so good for sliding/dabbing but if the surface suddenly gets slippery enough that the tire wants to wash out, then the boots will slide too. It's definitely an acquired skill though and you're bound to get bucked a few times in the process. If you're going to ride at anything over 20mph, just put on some boots, gloves and a helmet. We love your brains and bikes here! Keep yourself intact and heal up fast!

Here's a decent vid of the road that I'm talking about. This guy took twenty minutes to go 14 miles. I did it almost every day in ten minutes.
Never crashed....on that road at least. (That rut at 2:42 that grabs the front tire and tries to pull it off the road damn near got me once though!)
[youtube]Edvi7V1q6Cg[/youtube]

 

[docnjoj]

I'm sure glad you are sort of OK. Those injuries would bring me to the ER stat since I take blood thinners. Tilting trikes are looking better. Remember trikes won Pikes Peak so they dont have to be slow. Heal well!
otherDoc

 

[Thud]

How do the experts handle front wheel lock up?
Often they fall down. James Stewart fell last night in the Houston supercross when he missed a rut & lost the front end....it happens to all of the best & more often than any one likes to admit.
I have a video of me losing the front end on a rain slicked freshly sealed ashphault parking lot.....cost me a bruised knee & a little skin from the four arm up to the arm pit.

The last save I made on a front wheel skid was on the Adams track out in calli.....& that was pure luck.

But don't give up on proper braking...used right the front brake is your life saver.

The next time you you have time to play around, try locking up the front wheel in a controlled situation. This is a basic exorcise we use to get guys familure with the front brake.

(On gravel or dirt) Start at a crawling pace, lean back lock the front wheel & accelerate a little bit....the game is to see how far you can skid the front wheel.
This will let you feel the odd revers steering effects & should build a little confidence....but most importantly, it wil teach you what the bike feels like as the front wheel end starts to skid....if you get that feedback & recognize it in time...you have improved your odds for a save exponentially.

Now put some band aids on & superglue the bigger holes shut...& start untangling them mushroomed phase wires....when you ride...it's not "if" its "when" you crash.

 

[motomech]

How do the experts handle front wheel lock up?
Often they fall down. James Stewart fell last night in the Houston supercross when he missed a rut & lost the front end....it happens to all of the best & more often than any one likes to admit.
I have a video of me losing the front end on a rain slicked freshly sealed ashphault parking lot.....cost me a bruised knee & a little skin from the four arm up to the arm pit.

The last save I made on a front wheel skid was on the Adams track out in calli.....& that was pure luck.

But don't give up on proper braking...used right the front brake is your life saver.

The next time you you have time to play around, try locking up the front wheel in a controlled situation. This is a basic exorcise we use to get guys familure with the front brake.

(On gravel or dirt) Start at a crawling pace, lean back lock the front wheel & accelerate a little bit....the game is to see how far you can skid the front wheel.
This will let you feel the odd revers steering effects & should build a little confidence....but most importantly, it wil teach you what the bike feels like as the front wheel end starts to skid....if you get that feedback & recognize it in time...you have improved your odds for a save exponentially.

Now put some band aids on & superglue the bigger holes shut...& start untangling them mushroomed phase wires....when you ride...it's not "if" its "when" you crash.

The last save I made on a front wheel skid was on the Adams track out in calli.....& that was pure luck.

It's funny you should mention the Addams track. Back in the '90's, I used to race Expert minis with the CMRRA and we did Addams twice a year. Riding a NSR50/CR80 based modified mini, I would slam into the banked corners throttle wide open, breaking both tires loose. The bike would crab up the bank til it scubed off some speed and hooked up again. Great Fun! After The Streets Track at Willow, it was my Fav. track.
Although it's debatable, I think the first racer to intentionaly slide the frt. tire was Fast Freddy Spencer during his many incredible duals with The King, Kenny Roberts. He would do it to turn in, shorten the radius so to speak, in the tight corners.

 

[John in CR]

Thanks guys. BTW I'm not saying I won't use front brakes, but using them only when minimum braking distance is required seems to make sense. I think it makes these low speed mishaps go away, and more range through increased use of regen is a nice side benefit.

 

[mat h physics]

Thud has the right idea, followed closely by Captain387.

In my experience riding a motorcycle 3yrs it was a regular practice, after getting home, to lock the front tire in the pine straw/dirt. This is a great way to acclimate the felling of a front tire wash. Once you feel the front wash, release the brake to recover. Keep in mind, this was a relatively heavy bike, so I'm not as familiar how a light bike would react. On my bicycle, the front tire is 40c cyclocross running 45-60psi, rear 28c slick @140+. Front tire traction is very important to me, but it can still wash turning on wet wood or even pine straw covered wood.

I tried to start a tread on riding techniques, but only got smartass responses from those who "know everything". Tips like these were the kind of thing I wanted to cover, as well as defining riding positions for better text communication.

Becoming familiar with how the front end feels when wheel lock occurs, should help develop the second nature needed to recover from such a sudden loss of traction. If you release the brake in time, recovery should amount to taking a good bathroom wipe at the next stop. :lol:

PS How is the leaf spring build coming along?

 

[liveforphysics]

Im maybe 30% save rate on all things front wheel skid.

A really solidly good front brake exclusive riding style like most sport bike riders do when just commuting.

I wasn't ever able to be satisfied with any bicycle offerings on deathbike once I had over 25-ish HP. Had to swap to moto brakes because bicycle brakes would not only fade out in a lap or two, but the pads are smoked crumbling charred garbage in a single joyride.

You might be needing some better equipment to give you the feel and control to safely ride superbike style and careless with gear.

I Would so do gloves gloves though. Growing palms back is just awful. Not worth the small hassles of throwing on some good moto gloves. Some are quite comfy and padded and give you great bar grip and protection and don't make your hands overly sweaty.

Alpinestar full gauntlet are my preference.

 

[dogman dan]

Yeah, don't stop using the front brake completely. Just make adjustments to make the rear more likely to lock up first. Looking at the skid photo, you grabbed hard and long. Takes practice to brake easy in a panic, so go practice it on dirt. Get used to getting back off that front brake fast when you need to.

I do agree that a full suit of armor can make you ride aggressive. But I do want to be able to try to kick myself back up. Works in dirt, but I'm not so sure I ever really made it work on asphalt. Putting a foot down is usually step one of a proper lay down. So do consider a closed toe shoe or sandal. I'm more cavalier about my hands, I've been shredding them in construction work so long, maybe I just can't feel my hands much anymore. But those little toes feel everything.

Part of my love of the rear brake started with the ol Schwinn coaster brake bike, followed by 3 years riding a 125 with nonfunctional front brakes. It locks too easy, but you can steer that skid around a lot of cars.

 

[bowlofsalad]

They say there are two kinds of riders, those who have fallen, and those who haven't fallen, yet. Everybody trips while walking once in a while. I think when a rider gets very serious about riding a long number of miles, he has to take a risk assessment. Is it worth not wearing the protective gear on two wheels? Or, is it time to start considering a third wheel? I know if I had a fall with gashes like that, I'd be looking at three wheels real hard right now. In fact, it is my plan that if I have a hard fall, I am going to get three wheels one way or another.

I don't know how to expertly avoid falling off of two wheels. But three wheels will solve that issue well. I've seen a lot of people ride motorcycles basically naked, I always cringe when I see that. I'd never ride a bicycle(two) with flip flops on, and I prefer to wear gloves as well, I imagine other parts of your body got scuffed up. Heat isn't anywhere near as big an issue on an ebike, unless you have a dead battery : P. Consider 3 wheels, that's the best all around solution to stay off the pavement.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49000 I saw this device, and I was extremely interested in it, it would allow you to use your current bike and have three wheels.

Thanks for sharing this in any case. I am sure it's a welcome eye opener for some.

 

[liveforphysics]

Btw- Im very pleased you weren't more than scratched and dented a bit my friend.

No gear slides can be nasty situations when lots of kinetic energy are involved.

 

[Ykick]

Three wheels might seem like another "solution" but go look at some three wheeler accident images. Might not go bad as often but when things do go bad, they go very, very bad.

These cycle forces DO NOT CARE about you and there's no "cheat" here. It's nothing personal, merely the nature of riding. As in any good Kung Fu, you neutralize the force(s) of your attacker. Sturdy clothes will help accomplish that without any thinking, practice or even much effort.

Of course, all of us should take time to study the edge of these limits but there's always gonna be something you can't prepare for - spilled fuel, blown engine oil, sand, rocks, leaves, not paying full attention, etc. It's just never exactly like the practice course in real life. My 3rd and last post here.

Please get well soon!

 

[bowlofsalad]

Might not go bad as often

You kind of spelled it out, that's the point, the goal. John has fallen 5 times, he wants to reduce or eliminate his chances of ending up on the pavement. Short of riding of a magic flying carpet, there is nothing that is perfect. But in the circumstances that involve what John has described, it sounds like three wheels would have likely prevented his injuries. Nothing in life is set in stone, or perfect blah blah blah. I don't really know why you want to down play the value of something with three wheels for balance. If my wheels were slipping from beneath me, three wheels would be my logical solution. He could ride everywhere he goes like a clown on a unicycle trying to keep a beam level bubble in the center, in other words ride extremely carefully, but I doubt that is going to happen.

 

[Bill Nye the science guy]

one non pro tip that I do is stay off the seat when I am riding aggressively and if I see some rocks or gravel to avoid i cheat the bike to the right or left for a half second by shifting my body to one side or the other running the bike where it needs to go then pulling it back under me and correcting for the cheating I just did.

the only reason I bring this up is my friend is not a very good rider and he clamps his knees to his bike and doesn't let the bike move free under his body.

the other thing moto racers do is if they are turning left eg. they will move their weight to the right side of the seat on the exit of corner to get more weight down on the back tire for traction. there may be something to not totally committing all your weight into the turn and shift your shoulders up onto the bike abit so if you need alittle grip you can pull out of the turn by pulling the handle bars up out of the turn. I will have to pay attention to how I ride but I don't feel comfortable giving full trust in the tires with no way out.

and ouch that hurts on the hands. takes a long time to heal and keep them clean.

 

[John in CR]

Bill,

Very true. More weight on the pedals is always my first response to an identified road hazard or just riding hard. This was just a leisurely cruise going thankfully slow. The tiny rocks made it an invisible hazard, even on foot standing right in front of the area. My front battery was off the bike for an upgrade, leaving the front very light, so that may be what pushed it over the edge. I made a gentle arc around the pothole and I was using the brake quite gently, so a small change may have given me enough traction for a different result.

Oh well, lesson learned, and in the future I will focus more on front braking only in straight lines. I kinda knew that, but it wasn't etched in stone. Who knows, I may even start using gloves since there's probably little to no risk compensation with gloves.

At least there's a bright side. I get to see the inside of HubmonsterHE tomorrow.

 

[dogman dan]

That's kind of my general rule. Braking while turning I'll grab rear.

In dirt it works like a charm of course, pin the rear tire, yank the front around, goose throttle. You start steering with rear brake and throttle, almost not caring if the front wheel is even touching the ground.

Same thing sort of works street, but leaves a lot of flat spots on your tire. Ideally on street, you never lock up any tire but you can survive locking up the rear better.

 

[ForkInToaster]

It's good to apply your front brake gradually entering the corner. This pushes the weight of the bike and yourself forward compacting the front suspension and squashing your front tire giving it more surface area in contact with the road.

 

[dogman dan]

Assuming every corner isn't sandy. Gently is the key, long as you haven't locked it up you are good. It just takes lots of touch to do it gently enough on a sandy road, crosswalk stripe, or oil patch.

 

[montyp]

On a motorcycle it is pretty clear that you should brake with mostly your front brake. On a mtb you brake mostly with your rear brake. So now we get back to what is an ebike? A motocycle or bike?

One difference is that on a motorcycle you have to commit to a turn, you are only about 20% of the weight on the moto. So once things are in motion you're not going to do too much to change it half way through a turn or half way through a slide.

On the other hand, when riding a mtb, the bike is only 10% of the total weight so moving your body has a significant impact on the center of mass. So when things go wrong, you'll see a mtb'er move all their weight as far back as possible. I'll even get behind the seat so my stomach is basically on the seat. I'll lock up the rear wheel and steer with the front.

On a mtb lock up the front wheel and you end up going into the ground head and hands first, not cool. Lock up the rear, you go into a controlled slide and worse comes to worse your rear slides out and you end up on your ass. The ~20 lb bike does what ever it wants to do, maybe is lands on you, this is not usually very painful.

OTOH, a motorcycle the lands on you and your typically f'd. I'm guessing that's why on a motorcycle you want to do as much as possible to stay up right. Also since you don't have as much control in a slide, you try not to lock up the rear wheel.

From that perspective I guess it depends on weight of your ebike and how motorcycle-like it is, how conformable your are locking up your rear wheel, and if you want to land on your ass or hand/head.

Personally I'd rather land on my ass 10x vs once on my hands and head, my ebike is very bike-ish and am ok with locking up the rear. So when the sh!t down I don't use my front brake at all.

I ride it like a motorcycle when there isn't any danger and a mtb when conditions are hazardous.

 

[MadRhino]

That's kind of my general rule. Braking while turning I'll grab rear.

I always brake 80% front, in the first half of a turn, then accelerate in the 2nd half.
Braking front shortens the wheelbase to better initiate the turn, then acceleration stretches it to get better out.
If the front start to wash out, I accelerate harder out of the turn to make the rear drift a little, while I lift the bike's leaning angle by placing my upper body weight low inside. That works for me, for fast cornering at the limit of traction. That gives best chances of recovering off a slide, because when the bike is almost straight and your weight low inside, is the only moment you can counter-steer. As i said previously, years of riding snow and ice gives a rider better consciousness and confidence to recover. Yet, one can train cornering on loose or wet surfaces, to acquire confidence and balance.

The front brake quality is the most important. A good front brake gives you better feel and control, making you less likely to lock the wheel. That is why I always buy the very best brakes for the front and keep them perfectly tuned at all time.

 

[dogman dan]

I do start the turn with some front brake. But If I need more in the center of the turn, I'll set the rear tire with brake, then grab throttle while the rear tire is dug in. But that's dirt.

Asphalt, I defintitely lean towards less front brake once I start leaning.

I don't pretend to know all, and DID learn to ride funny after almost 4 years with no front brake at all on that honda. I guess what I'm really saying is mostly that I'm willing to lock up a rear tire, but not willing to chance locking up a front. Again, this is where I ride, where ALL asphalt corners are sandy.