how much cost to grid-tie?

Arlo1 said:
Enphase seems to be good stuff. We are going to start with our Solar in the spring. My plan is to use Enphase micro inverters so we can add 1 panel at a time.
Most likely be 250-300 watt panels what ever is bang for buck as we have a lot of space. http://enphase.com/microinverters/
Yes, I've been experimenting with those too. I can pick up the M215 microinverters for a good price, $130. I have two of these. For panels I'm using two chinese made 235w "Solar Fun" panels. Great panels so far. I now have the Envoy gateway too. The system works fine without it but, It's difficult to see whats going on. The big advantage with microinverters is they're less prone to shading problems since each solar panel is independent from the next panel. Notice the shading differences below in my two panels this morning.


envoy1.png
 
I see on this thread (and elsewhere) that people want to use simple mathematics and Watt's law to compute their costs or savings on their electric bill when considering solar or anything else. I wish it were this simple but I have found this is not the case. A couple times someone has said to me something like "why change to that energy efficient bulb when you're only going to save 2 bits". Two bits being an old term for 25 cents making a new $10 LED bulb appear to have a breakeven point that's several years away. As a result, the temptation to use Ohm's law with simple math leads people to make incorrect assumptions of how much a, for example, 250 watt panel could save them.

First let me explain how I calculate my savings. While it's not perfectly accurate to the penny, it's much more accurate than anything else I've tried. I'd say "deadly accurate" since dollars don't lie. I just skip all the calculations and went to the dollar figure at the end of my bill. Then make changes in solar or electric loads at the beginning of the billing cycle and wait for the results at the end of the billing cycle. The reason I can do this has to do with where I live. Here near the coast of Northern California we have what they call a Mediterrainean climate which has low humidity and medium temperatures from late Spring through the end of Fall. Because of this, I'm fortunate to not have a need for an air conditioner. So my electric bill costs are mostly all those long term "always on" loads. As a result, my electric bill in the late 2000s was always $115 and some cents. It was uncanny because the "cents" (or pennys) would vary but the $115 never changed, ever. At least not until winter. Then I bought one of those Harbor Freight 45 watt solar systems with three 15 watt solar panels, charge controller, wiring and some 12 volt dc light bulbs etc. I added a large deep cycle battery then started moving over loads. I started with my cell phone and was shocked to open a bill that said $110 in stead of $115. I really expected maybe $114 or $115 but not $110. I added my wifes phone and a month later saw $105. I added my son's phone and saw $100. I started looking around for other easy things to hook to that battery. Keeping in mind that all electronics us DC, I connected the wireless router and saw $90 on the next bill. I continued to do this until I marched the bill to $50 and some change and this was my monthly summertime bill for the next 3 years. The only changes I made during this time was upgrading my solar to 2 used Kyrocera 125 watt panels, a mppt morningstar charge controller, and an extra battery but, this was mostly to help me through the winter. I didn't really need the upgrade for summer.

Still, this does not explain the rather large savings I was seeing. Afterall, a 5 watt cell phone charger I had even if it was plugged in 24/7 for 31 days (worst possible case) could never add up to $5.00!

5 watt charger * 24 hours * 31 days = 3720 watthours =3.72kwh

and since I was paying 13 cents per kwh: 3.72 kwh x 0.13 = 0.48 cents for the entire month and this was a worst case senario!


Now some reasons why normal math may not work on your electric bill:

1. You live in a state like California with a tiered rate structure.


If you do have a tiered rate structure, you're probably are going into the upper tiers. California has at least 4 tiers but it's not showing above because I didn't need it. The 4th tier is something like $0.45 which can run things up. If you remove a load, remember that it will alway come from your highest tier! If my cell phone displaced power from the 4th tier in the worst case senario above, I should be paying $1.67 absolute maximum. So what else can run the bill up so much?

2. A poor power factor. Power factor is a strange phenominon we usually don't have to deal with. Industrial and some commercial power users get charged extra based on their power factor (among other things like demand, etc.) As I understand it, power factor can run your bill up, usually with induction loads like motors, transformers, etc, by reflecting some of the current back to the utility which bounces back to you and will bounce back again, over and over. Each time it goes through a meter, the meter will record this as more power used yet, the power company does not generate any additional power. The utilities biggest concern is the load this places on their wiring and thus, they will require power factor corrections by the end industrial user, usually by installing the correct size capacitors in line. Resistive loads like resistance heaters and incadescent light bulbs have very good power factors so, those old light bulbs are probably not so bad on your electric bill.

3. Probably anything else that is on an industrial power user's bill that we don't see but have to be passed on to the consumer somehow. Items like "Demand" for instants. Demand is a charge for starting up any large device like a large industrial motor. Starting something like a motor requires a large, maybe like 20 times it's normal full load curent draw. A large enough motor will briefly drop the line voltage until the motor gets up to speed and the utility wants to be paid for it. There are other items too. Maybe as much as a dozen more. An industrial or commercial customer's electric bill is interesting to see.

So go ahead and try that solar system whether it's a full blown grid tied, commercially installed system or a small Harbor Freight 12vdc system. I'm sure you'll save some money. And it will be in the mucho dollars for sure. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
 
Regarding power factor, it makes no difference to domestic customers - you are (currently, at least) only billed for the actual power you use.
 
Punx0r said:
Regarding power factor, it makes no difference to domestic customers - you are (currently, at least) only billed for the actual power you use.
Punx0r, you may be right on this. I can't pinpoint the exact cause here other than a tiered rate structure. Just one of the reasons I suspected power factor has something to do with it is swimming pools in the Bay Area. People around here with swimming pools tend to have $400 to $500 electric bills. My sister is one of them and so is a friend from work. Everyone else with a similar home but no pool pays maybe $100 to $200 per month for electric. Since the pump motor is an induction load, it is at least susceptible to power factor problems (again if there are any). If you calculate a worst case senario with a 3/4 horsepower pump motor running 24/7 it will not add up to the extra $200 to $300. At least with using Watt's law.

Just for the heck of it I calculated a 3/4 hp pump running at maximum full load amps (most pumps won't be exactly at full load but a little less) for 24 hours times 31 days and came up with $154. These people here are getting billed for nearly twice that.

12 amps (full load amps) x 115 volts x 24 hours x 31 days = 1026720 watthours = 1026.72 kwh

1026.72 kwh x $0.15 (cost per kwh) = $154 cost (worst case) Most people run their pool pumps only half the time but, I can see how our tiered rate structure could really take effect here since they would all be in the upper tiers.
 
amberwolf said:
Maybe it's just as simple as the provider overcharging y'all because the meters don't work right or are "rigged"? ;)
I wasn't going to go there until I had more facts but you could be right. Here in the SF Bay Area we have a few cities that have a government ran electric provider. The rest of us have a privately ran provider. How we ended up with this company with a perfect monopoly I don't know but the results haven't always been good. Cities like Alameda (Alameda Municipal Power), San Francisco (Hetch Hetchy Power) and at least one in the South Bay generally enjoy lower electric bills overall. It could very well be that I'm blowing this solar savings idea all out at of proportion because of a local problem here in the Bay Area. :?
 
You pay for poor power factor in system inefficiency as well as getting hit with a surcharge if you are an industrial customer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81n7HrLn3Ng Motors mess power factor up big time. Also it is Best to have a power factor corrected central dc system instead of a bunch of small transformers dragging the house current off phase angle a bunch or add capacitor banks to correct it.
 
speedmd said:
You pay for poor power factor in system inefficiency as well as getting hit with a surcharge if you are an industrial customer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81n7HrLn3Ng Motors mess power factor up big time. Also it is Best to have a power factor corrected central dc system instead of a bunch of small transformers dragging the house current off phase angle a bunch or add capacitor banks to correct it.
That was a very informative video! Boy is my Trigonometry is sure dusty but I get the point here. I like the idea of a central dc system in the home. In a sense I have one with a 12 vdc solar system I still have. My wireless router is powered by it and so is my son's 16 port switch he installed. Very efficient.

I like the story of the engineer from the 1970's who borrowed a solar panel from work at a time when the average person couldn't get a hold of one. He ran dc outlets all over his home and disconnected all the small transformers he could, including some that were inside appliances. His normally $40 monthly bill was dipping below $10 per month so his utility replaced his meter. After that they eventually had to contact him to find out if his power was alright. :lol:
 
Everyone in California should be aware that all of the electric companies are moving away from tiered rates.

About half of the typical cost for a customer is "fixed". When a customer cuts back use, that fixed portion is shifted to other customers. When solar was coming of age, few customers did solar, so this shift was small. That is no longer the case, so expect more and more of electric costs to be shifted to "customer charges" or "minimum bill amounts" (names will vary) which can't be avoided.

Counting on long term rate structures to remain constant is a mistake. In Northern California PG&E and SMUD have already filed phase in plans to do just that. I believe both are entirely fazed in by 2018.

If you are doing a low cost dyi solar project this likely won't be a problem, but if you are spending $30k to have a system installed or are signing up for a long term lease, you are likely to be very disappointed.
 
mfinca said:
Everyone in California should be aware that all of the electric companies are moving away from tiered rates.

About half of the typical cost for a customer is "fixed". When a customer cuts back use, that fixed portion is shifted to other customers. When solar was coming of age, few customers did solar, so this shift was small. That is no longer the case, so expect more and more of electric costs to be shifted to "customer charges" or "minimum bill amounts" (names will vary) which can't be avoided.

Counting on long term rate structures to remain constant is a mistake. In Northern California PG&E and SMUD have already filed phase in plans to do just that. I believe both are entirely fazed in by 2018.

If you are doing a low cost dyi solar project this likely won't be a problem, but if you are spending $30k to have a system installed or are signing up for a long term lease, you are likely to be very disappointed.


If you installed a large solar array, and the electric company makes foolish rules, you are always free to request your grid power service connection to be removed.

Distributed microgrids will replace the antiquated central grid system soon enough. Then it won't matter what foolish nonsense power companies may wish to do.
 
mfinca said:
Everyone in California should be aware that all of the electric companies are moving away from tiered rates.

About half of the typical cost for a customer is "fixed". When a customer cuts back use, that fixed portion is shifted to other customers. When solar was coming of age, few customers did solar, so this shift was small. That is no longer the case, so expect more and more of electric costs to be shifted to "customer charges" or "minimum bill amounts" (names will vary) which can't be avoided.

Counting on long term rate structures to remain constant is a mistake. In Northern California PG&E and SMUD have already filed phase in plans to do just that. I believe both are entirely fazed in by 2018.

If you are doing a low cost dyi solar project this likely won't be a problem, but if you are spending $30k to have a system installed or are signing up for a long term lease, you are likely to be very disappointed.
To complete the thought, the utilities are moving toward Time of Use rates. The new SCE TOU rates can be attractive for solar generation because of the higher daytime rates. As with many things, it depends on your circumstances. I am able to shift my car charging and water heating to the super off peak rates. I expect to have a zero bill at the end of the year. The net cost of my system was $15,000 and it saves me $150/month.
I chose to buy instead of lease because I wanted to be in control of my elecricity bill. I didn't think I would achieve that with a lease.

Yes if one were to install a $30,000 system when they had a $200/month bill it would take a long time to get a payback. A friend of mine installed a $30,000 system last year and he knocked $500/month off his monthly bill.
 
We have two challenges with respect to Solar PV arrays in Washington State. Cheap Power rates and poor sunlight conditions for a good portion of the year. However our utility company does provide for very good incentives for customers who generate power. (This is of course because The Utility companies really like selling their excess power to California.)

I personally have poor shading for Solar. (My neighbor's to the the south have tall evergree trees which douse a good portion of my roof with their shade. :? )

It seems to make plenty of sense to install solar PV where there is ample sunshin and high electricity rates. For the time being, we here in Washington must rely on government and utility incentives for it to be cost-effective.

My wife is ready for a bigger/better home. My dream is to build a Net-Zero house, and to be able to charge my electric vehichles with pure Solar energy. :)
Someday...
 
I always thought that Washington generates most of its power with solar power stored in reservoirs. You know, potential energy stored in water. Often wondered why reusable hydro is not more common to store sporadic energy sources like wind turbines or PVs.
 
Eclectic said:
...... Often wondered why reusable hydro is not more common to store sporadic energy sources like wind turbines or PVs.
The California aquaduct does the at its San Luis Rey resevoir. I don't know if they specifically store wind or solar energy. They pump (buy) during low rate periods and generate (sell) during high rates. If they are on a TOU rate like me the difference could be as much as 0.15/kWh. LOL

Actually they prolly are big enough to buy on the open market. Others, like Robert Boston, are more familiar with the details.
 

Not hard to do. Elon Musk is on the board of directors of Solar City so they're beginning to install these systems. Right now it's considered a backup to the grid but, once the prices comes down on these and you add enough battery, watch out! Grid? What grid!
:twisted:
 

Attachments

  • IMG_20150116_094216.jpg
    IMG_20150116_094216.jpg
    19.2 KB · Views: 3,471
San Luis does not operate like a normal pump storage project, or at least the Federal portion does not (The other half belongs to California Department of Water Resources (DWR)). The federal part of San Luis is a part of the federal CVP water project. It is operated to store water in the winter/spring and then draw the water down in the summer/fall. Any power benefits are minimal.

Helms (PG&E), Castaic (LADWP) and to some extent Oroville-Thermalito (DWR) do operate as described. The are also quite a bit larger. But they are operated for the benefit of their owners which may or may not benefit the renewable market.

There is a CPUC program that is to produce another 1300MW of storage (type not yet determined) that will be built by PG&E SCE and SDG&E, by 2020. These projects are to be designed specifically with integrating renewable power in mind.

I think we have all wondered a little of subject and should probably want to start a new thread to continue this subject.
 
I set up a 12v sla bank with ac inverter. ran some stuff off it. But I'm bailing on it. Unless you got some kind of load to closely match the panel output, which can vary a lot, its problematic. Efficiency is never going to be great. Too much work to be constantly monitoring load and output. I just don't see how it makes sense if you already have grid power. You need to tie to the grid which acts as an infinite bank.

It just seems the only good way to use my low wattage solar is for trickle charging my evs. I still have that problem of not using a hvc, so I have to plan and watch i don't overcharge. If I didn't have ev batteries to charge, I see little use for low wattage non grid tied solar. Unless you can use it as climate control to assist the main house system. Elec for heat is so ineffective though.
 
I recently had a 4kWh system installed for $18,000 ($4.50/watt). SCE is currently increasing rates which will continue to benefit me. Even though they have changed the peak rate period to later in the day I can still break even by shifting my loads to off peak in order to maximize the credit I get from generating during peak.
 
I am looking seriously at a 4 to 5 kw system now also. The DIY prices looks attractive enough to look into it a bit to see if I want to take a stab at it. I have a friend that has a electricians licence to help connect things legal like and keep me out of trouble with some of my hair brained ideas. wholesalesolar has good selection of micro inverters and grid tie inverters that would allow you to connect direct to the grid to run the second meter backwards. The systems they list are a minimum of ten panels. http://www.wholesalesolar.com/gridtie.html
 
That is a good price for Panels. Dont forget hardware. . You will need racking and standoff legs to tie into your roof. Don't scrimp on that part because you don't want leaks. The kind of standoffs will be determined by the type of roof. Also the rack suppliers have engineering programs that will print plans and give you a materials list. You will need plans to get building permit. You will need final approved building permit to get PTO (permission to operate) from your electricity provider.
If all those things start to approach $4.50 per watt, call a couple of solar companies for bids. Good luck and enjoy.
 
That looks to be about what I am estimating to do the building and trenching mostly myself. With any luck it will be under that. 3.8 - 4kw system would be good for us. 5kw system is much more that required unless I add a EV. Panel costs are expected to drop significantly over the next year or two. One source had them forecast for a 40% drop in cost in just two years. Imagine the better panels will hold a bit more steady.
 
Keep in mind that as you wait for panel prices to drop, you might also lose the 30% Federal tax credit. Under current law you need to be complete before Jan. 1, 2017. It looks like extensions will be slow going in the current Congress.

I don't know about state and utility credits in your area, but in California utility credits are being phased out as well.
 
Back
Top