How to built a 450CC RACE with similar weight power and torque like TACITA ?

[flat tire]

The bike with the specs you listed will not be 450 level.

First, 450s make 60+ hp and weigh like 240 lbs with a full tank. If you have any business racing a 450 it will be hard to make an ebike that meets those criteria for a 12 minute race.

Even if you accept the 55kw motor, (55kw is input, actual output to the wheel about 55 horsepower, after realistic motor and controller losses), you will need a pretty big battery.

Finally, a transmission will not be needed and just adds extra weight you could have put towards more battery or more powerful motor. Consider the Alta, which kicks ass even though it's too heavy and weak.

 

[EMX_USD]

Completely agree with. Good companies are characterized by good marketing that does not hide things. I find this small engine very expensive. Their idea makes me think of the incorporated reduction that Silent enduro had tinkered with. It is disturbing to these companies which have the means to develop a new engine when there are already many on the market. Problem number two: the controller which is much too large. For a dirtbike the controller must be flawless. I'm looking to make it myself because I don't need all the options available for a dirtbike. The controller (example for a 6000 watts engine) must do the job and it must be completely waterproof. So DIY friends, if you know how to make a dirtbike controller, let us know on the site. Third problem: the lithium batteries too bulky, heavy and with false promises of ecology, autonomy and lifespan but this is unchangeable in the near future.

 

[EMX_USD]

Help specialist of Endless sphere:
Wich controller is the best for dirt bike prototype???
It's controller about 72volt 200amp continuous for motor brushless 5000watt 5KW.
Wich controller: Sabvoton? Votol? kelly?

 

[amberwolf]

It's controller about 72volt 200amp continuous for motor brushless 5000watt 5KW.

keep in mind that 72v at 200a is over 14kw, so you'd be able to overpower that motor by about three times what it was designed to handle. it might take that in bursts for short periods, but if you have to do that a lot during a ride, or you have to do it continously for long periods, you may eventually (or quickly) damage the motor.

 

[EMX_USD]

It's controller about 72volt 200amp continuous for motor brushless 5000watt 5KW.

keep in mind that 72v at 200a is over 14kw, so you'd be able to overpower that motor by about three times what it was designed to handle. it might take that in bursts for short periods, but if you have to do that a lot during a ride, or you have to do it continously for long periods, you may eventually (or quickly) damage the motor.

Ok it's true Three time But which is the appropriated light and not expensive controller? I saw the votol em150, but one very good diy'er say that have no power acceptable for a dirtbike. Why i must pay 500 $ for one little box of little electronic components...for 500$, i bought, and it's true, a new scooter 48V with 1000watt motor.

 

[EMX_USD]

The technology has been around for a long time. Companies like Tacita have this technology but it is expensive, it is inaccessible for motocross fans. I want to make this accessible thanks to you.

 

[macribs]

Ok it's true Three time But which is the appropriated light and not expensive controller? I saw the votol em150, but one very good diy'er say that have no power acceptable for a dirtbike. Why i must pay 500 $ for one little box of little electronic components...for 500$, i bought, and it's true, a new scooter 48V with 1000watt motor.

Because you are not paying for the electronic components by them self. You are paying the price for an end product. Paying for that someone with the required schooling, skills and know how have taken their time and put in the effort to design the controller, to test it and to make a working firmware with tons of variables that must match their overall goal for the product. So basically you paying for all the time and effort it took to design, test and produce the controller, plus a fair part of all the effort this manufacturer has for learning the skills, like years of studying.

You can pay for all that, the asking price. Or you can find way cheaper inferior product from a manufacturer that also lack the know how, same as you and that cheap controller will not be any way near as good as the first one. Or you can dedicate all your spare time for the next 2-3 years and learn all about what makes an electrical engineer, learn the skills needed to design your own controller, then spend even more time learning basic skills like soldering and 3-5 years you will have your own controller, that you made. Where you paid solely for the components inside the controller, but because you can likely didn't buy components in bulk, your price for the components will likely be 100-200¤ at least. Oh and what all all that free time you dedicated to learn the skill needed? How much is that worth? And when you testride your own controllers, chances are it will not be as good as the 500 $ controller, because you lacked experience in the field of controller design. Then again, maybe you are a renaissance man and develop a superior product never before seen by man, and people will actually pay you to make them controllers.

You are paying for a product made by experts. Or you can put in the required effort to become an expert yourself. And if you are skilled and lucky you can sell you own controller to others. Or if you are not that great, you just wasted a lot of time learning to build a controller and end up needing to buy a new controller from a true expert.

 

[EMX_USD]

Ok it's true Three time But which is the appropriated light and not expensive controller? I saw the votol em150, but one very good diy'er say that have no power acceptable for a dirtbike. Why i must pay 500 $ for one little box of little electronic components...for 500$, i bought, and it's true, a new scooter 48V with 1000watt motor.

Because you are not paying for the electronic components by them self. You are paying the price for an end product. Paying for that someone with the required schooling, skills and know how have taken their time and put in the effort to design the controller, to test it and to make a working firmware with tons of variables that must match their overall goal for the product. So basically you paying for all the time and effort it took to design, test and produce the controller, plus a fair part of all the effort this manufacturer has for learning the skills, like years of studying.

You can pay for all that, the asking price. Or you can find way cheaper inferior product from a manufacturer that also lack the know how, same as you and that cheap controller will not be any way near as good as the first one. Or you can dedicate all your spare time for the next 2-3 years and learn all about what makes an electrical engineer, learn the skills needed to design your own controller, then spend even more time learning basic skills like soldering and 3-5 years you will have your own controller, that you made. Where you paid solely for the components inside the controller, but because you can likely didn't buy components in bulk, your price for the components will likely be 100-200¤ at least. Oh and what all all that free time you dedicated to learn the skill needed? How much is that worth? And when you testride your own controllers, chances are it will not be as good as the 500 $ controller, because you lacked experience in the field of controller design. Then again, maybe you are a renaissance man and develop a superior product never before seen by man, and people will actually pay you to make them controllers.

You are paying for a product made by experts. Or you can put in the required effort to become an expert yourself. And if you are skilled and lucky you can sell you own controller to others. Or if you are not that great, you just wasted a lot of time learning to build a controller and end up needing to buy a new controller from a true expert.

it's fair but not quite. I know two electronics engineers to ask technical questions, that's not the problem. To give an example if I buy a burger from Burger King $ 1.5, why should I pay a cheesburger $ 2. For a cheesburger, I want to pay $ 1.6 or I go to the supermarket and for $ 0.5 I buy a cheap package with ten slices of cheese. As no one on this site manufactures controllers, I may be getting started, but don't make me believe that motorcycle electronics is something complex. I would understand for a study of the Tesla for example and again, it was such an obvious invention but no one thought about it earlier. There are things so stupid in the means of locomotion like the tires that must be inflated, which deflate, sometimes explodes without warning. Too much energy consumption when I think that everything is there to transform mechanical energy into electrical energy. The apparent drive by chain-sprocket-crown seems archaic to me. What seems to me the most archaic is the manufacture of billions of electronic components without any rules. If I want a kit for a motorcycle of such power, then why fool the consumer with more than ten parallel solutions. A little more volts here a little less amps there. It is not possible this system and I do not believe in it. Maybe I am wrong in my prototype but at least I will have tried.

 

[amberwolf]

As no one on this site manufactures controllers,

there are several controller designers / builders here on es that have started from scratch; it's a long and expensive road to follow.

look aorund in the motor technology subforum, and there are a number of threads (and sets of threads) for various controller development projects. some of them based on prior work, some completely from scratch.

I may be getting started, but don't make me believe that motorcycle electronics is something complex.

motor controllers (for any system) are a lot more complex than you seem to think. there are quite a few cheap generic controller designs / companies out there, that commonly have failures, even when not pushed hard. poor design, cheap parts, no qc, etc. mqcon/sabvoton's later offerings come to mind for "high end" generic pieces of junk.

even controller companies (like kelly) that design and make their own have serious problems with their designs, made worse by the selection of cheap parts.

i highly recommend that you go thru all of the controller development threads to see exactly what goes into designing these things, and then prototyping them, blowing them up, redesigning, blowing them up, tweaking, blowing them up, and so on, until a working reliable design has been reached.


you're welcome to try out whatever you like to do the job you want done; my guess is you will end up spending more money trying out a bunch of cheap parts that don't work out, than if you had just gotten the good stuff to start with. :/

but you came here and asked us for help and opinions--if you don't believe that anyone but you is right, why did you bother?

if you choose to reject our experience and ignore the advice you asked for, don't be surprised if your project doesn't meet all your expectations.



you can always build stuff out of the cheap parts, and it may work. it may even work for a long time...but it probalby wont' meet all the goals and expectations, or it wont' be reliable (glitches, wierd behavior, if not outright failures) in the long term.

many of us here have done exactly that...and eventually went with the "good stuff" because we got tired of living with the compromises.

 

[amberwolf]

Why i must pay 500 $ for one little box of little electronic components...for 500$, i bought, and it's true, a new scooter 48V with 1000watt motor.

does that scooter do anything remotely close to what you want your dirtbike to do?

 

[macribs]

it's fair but not quite. I know two electronics engineers to ask technical questions, that's not the problem. To give an example if I buy a burger from Burger King $ 1.5, why should I pay a cheesburger $ 2. For a cheesburger, I want to pay $ 1.6 or I go to the supermarket and for $ 0.5 I buy a cheap package with ten slices of cheese. As no one on this site manufactures controllers, I may be getting started, but don't make me believe that motorcycle electronics is something complex.

Gee. I don't know what to say to you. Are you really that cheap or are you ignorant to the fact that is not the parts that make up a controller that is the hardest thing to get right? It is the firmware that is hardest. If you really mean what you are saying, may I suggest that you take yourself to the challenge of creating you very own controller? Maybe it will be all that and if you get a product on par or better then what other controller manufacturers on the ES site, I promise you I will buy your controller.

Either you will prove me wrong and make a wonderful controller, or you will find that engineering a controller, designing it and programming it is in fact a lot harder then what you think today.

 

[EMX_USD]

First of all, thank you for taking the time to formulate your answers and return to technical matters. I am waiting for controllers that I ordered and they are expensive. if a controller makes a joke while it is more robust than the power of my batteries, then I will try to design a controller. I would leave on this basis for a dirt bike:
-a battery
-a potentiometer
-a controller
-a temperature sensor
-air cooling
- short circuit protection, overloads.
-protection against prolonged immersion when using in the rain
-a motor

It's simple.

 

[EMX_USD]

I found this on a walk, what was it for? an entry, a switch, two cells 750mah and an exit.

 

[EMX_USD]

:lol: don't panic guys, i think it just comes from a razor or a hair clipper.

 

[EMX_USD]

The first battery pack run for the first time but i don't understand why the 13. and 15. position have too much voltage. The 17. position has too little voltage. All the cells are the same and new. Do you thing that the bms will equilibrate the battery pack without the charger or it must be connected to the charger?

 

[EMX_USD]

Hello guys, for the moment everything is ok with battery pack.

I have a technical question about the strength of the steel. Is the steel of a motorcycle wheel axle as strong as a motor or motorcycle gearbox axle? How much? (example: less than 2 times or more than 2 times). Thanks :thumb:

 

[EMX_USD]

It is certain that the metal used for the motor shafts are of highly superior quality than the shafts used for the cycle part. You got it there!!!

 

[EMX_USD]

My new engine concept can work, I finished the prototype. It's funny to see that it works when almost no one could help me with the development of the project. It runs but irregularly, that's normal, it's a prototype. Now either I move on or I continue this project but it's an investment..

My new engine concept can work, I finished the prototype. It's funny to see that it works when almost no one could help me with the development of the project. It runs but irregularly, that's normal, it's a prototype. Now either I move on or I continue this project but it's an investment. For the off-road motorcycle, I'm too old for this bullshit, there are plenty of models coming out on the motorcycle market. On occasion I will buy a good one .

 

[EMX_USD]

I forgot to write to you that the sellers on ali take your photos on endless sphere and then they add them to their ads for products for sale. The photo of my battery opposite, taken by the company that sold me the 18650 lithium cells.

 

[spinningmagnets]

This is a very optimistic goal, because creating a 450-class motorcycle is rare, and there are few examples.

The Alta performed well, but it was too expensive and it was promoted too soon. It used 355V if I recall correctly, specifically to make charging faster at the track. It also used a small high-RPM motor with a significant reduction to save weight.

The Zero motorcycles use 28S / 102V nominal, and prefer to get ther power from high amps. There is a single-stage belt between the motor and rear wheel.

I have to agree that the controller is the most difficult part to choose, to understand, and to program.

 

[liveforphysics]

Sent to PohlBock motor:
hello, could you give me more information on the integrated gearbox, thank you.
No speeds? gearbox using oil? ...


We have a translation with tooth pulleys and a toothed belt witch it completely dry.


Mit freundlichem Gruß / kind regards
CEO/ Geschäftsführer

So it is actually NOT a gearbox? From the response you got it sounds like any one stage reduction. From their website it kind of looked like their gearbox was the next great thing, but they didn't really share most information, specs or anything of value on their site. Now I am thinking that the gearbox in just an enclosed one stage reduction where the belt is shielded from dust, debris, sand, gravel and rocks. Don't get me wrong, that is also nice. But from their website the impression I got was that they made a mechanical gearbox to ensure maximal torque at a wider speed, and that is was more then a one stage reduction.

Well it often hard to find the truth behind all the marketing, hype and hypersale activity on new products. As the price is steep I say maybe better to wait for real world reviews of that motor/"gearbox"?

Do keep in mind a multi-ratio box is only seen as useful when drastically poor motor selection was chosen.

The vehicle is drastically more effective as a race tool without interruptions in torque delivery and the drag and weight of the cogs not in use.

An electric MX bike with multiple gears would indicate failure to take advantage of the electric power plant abilities.

 

[Dui ni shuo de dui]

Do keep in mind a multi-ratio box is only seen as useful when drastically poor motor selection was chosen.

Can't say I agree with that.
What matters is what you get to the wheel, and with different ratios you can get loads of torque while keeping a good top speed. So there is no compromize needed and you don't have to overbuild the motor to keep decent torque at low speed, like basically every manufacturer does nowadays.
It is undoubttly less efficient to have a gearbox, more noisy, more prone to break and so on, but it's not really true to say it's useless.

Not mentionning the fact that it is a lot of fun to switch gears, and fun is maybe the most important reason why we build these things in the first place :wink: Not being able to switch gears is a major factor why many motorcycle riders aren't interested in emotos. Main factors are of course the fact that emotos don't make engine noises, second is probably the range, but the no gear thing is for sure in the top ten. It came up every time I discussed with people about my bikes :lol:

For sure efficiency is important, but it's not the only thing :wink:

 

[liveforphysics]

Do keep in mind a multi-ratio box is only seen as useful when drastically poor motor selection was chosen.

Can't say I agree with that.
What matters is what you get to the wheel, and with different ratios you can get loads of torque while keeping a good top speed. So there is no compromize needed and you don't have to overbuild the motor to keep decent torque at low speed, like basically every manufacturer does nowadays.
It is undoubttly less efficient to have a gearbox, more noisy, more prone to break and so on, but it's not really true to say it's useless.

Not mentionning the fact that it is a lot of fun to switch gears, and fun is maybe the most important reason why we build these things in the first place :wink: Not being able to switch gears is a major factor why many motorcycle riders aren't interested in emotos. Main factors are of course the fact that emotos don't make engine noises, second is probably the range, but the no gear thing is for sure in the top ten. It came up every time I discussed with people about my bikes :lol:

For sure efficiency is important, but it's not the only thing :wink:

I respectfully disagree my friend. You mention efficiency not being everything, but having participated in and supported many EV race efforts, powertrain efficiency is critical for all racing that lasts longer than drag racing. This is because efficiency is the inverse of the rate your powertrain heats, and temperature management is an aspect of maintaining high power performance. This can be accomplished by internal oil cooler jets spraying the rotor and circulation pumps to oil radiators. The stator can have internal water cooling passages and it's own coolant pump and radiator.

The thing is, now we've transformed the vehicle into a power into heat load bank for sheading heat like its an ICE bike, but we're not carrying a fuel that's 33kWh/gal, we are burdened quite heavily for each kWh we carry, both in its volume and its mass.

Using a motor that is sized to natively convert the electricity into adequate primary sprocket torque across the desired operating speed range, you gain this beautiful advantage of the motor having more copper and iron, letting it waste less of that precious stored electricity as wasted copper loss, while greatly improving the odds of finishing a race successfully due to greatly reduced complexity and failure modes.

I once got thrilled by the idea of a 2spd or 3spd transmission (I even wanted a clutch) in an emoto , so I'm not judging you for thinking it's a good idea. The thing is, once you get a taste of the right motor for the job, anything else seems like a waste of effort for worse results.

 

[EMX_USD]

Hello guys Finally, it would take an automatic gearbox for heavy motorcycles and no gearbox for light motorcycles? For cars, a gearbox will heat the electrical and electronic components less, this saves energy and respects the longevity of the components. OK ?