How to wheelie with my 4kw bike?

R

rg12

100 kW
Joined
Jul 26, 2014
Messages
1,596
I always wanted to do that, to ride on one wheel for distance but it seems impossible!

I've got a downhill bike with a 4kw hub motor setup.
* Throttle and rear brake levers are on the right side.

To wheelie it just takes a gentle touch of the throttle with that power but it just raises the front wheel
higher and higher until I stop hitting the throttle so I wont flip.

I know that many people use the rear brake but for me I need to put it on the left side if I want to use it
along with the throttle and I'm not going to do so since I need my strong brake (front) on the left.

I read on motorcycle forums that many people do this without the rear brake but I'm guessing that it's
much easier controlling a gas motor with a manual gear than a crazy ebike with loads of power in the
one "gear" that I have.

Any ideas?

Roy
 
YOu probably need a different method of throttle control, where it isn't controlling speed of the wheel but rather power, or torque, etc.

There are various threads about wheelie control discussing how this might best be done, if you look around. I don't know if any of the info in them would be usable for you, but it is worth a look.
 
I've found some vids on youtube of people wheelie a stealth bomber and other 9kw bikes and from what it seems
it's not easy for them either but they do make it happen and ride long distance on one wheel.

The most important thing I noticed is that they can't just hold the throttle in one position and keep the wheel in
the air since it always wants to go higher due to the power increasing automatically so they just use the throttle
in short bursts to not flip over.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xID556Nevw
 
cwah said:
Is 4kw enough to wheelie?
Click to expand...

Enough to flip you with a touch of the throttle...
People who try my bike and don't have the throttle sensitivity of someone who knows how
high kw bikes work are constantly getting an unwanted scary wheelie.
 
cwah said:
Is 4kw enough to wheelie?
Click to expand...

Since human powered bikes can be wheelied, I would say that 4kw is enough.
What is needed is skill not power.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=how+to+wheelie+mountain+bike

Roy,
I use a (thumb) throttle on the left side. I find this setup easier to sync with gear changes, but i believe it will make it easier for you to sync with the rear brake.

Avner.
 
Hi Avner,

I don't have gears since I use a hub motor...

btw, I checked out the link from your signature, Your build looks very professional, It's very rare to
see such quality work as many people spend so much time and money on building a cool bike but
the bike ends up looking like a pile of wires and bags.

Where are you from in Israel? We might be neighbors, I'm from the Carmel area.


Roy
 
cwah said:
What is the controller motor battery and wheel size top speed combo to flip at only 4kw?

I suppose a dd can't do that and u need mid drive?
Click to expand...

Controller is about 45-47A 72v, very special premium and exotic CHINESE quality :lol:
26", top speed doesn't have to do anything with wheelies but if you insist it's about 70kmh.
It's a hub motor, I noticed that crazy builds that use mid drive motors tend to use higher wattage than
the crazy setups you see built with hub motors.
Those little mid drive motors sometimes get cranked up to 10kw for bursts...with a hub motor using such
power you will have to use a very big motor to not fry it and a suitable controller which will be huge also
compared to those little mid drive controllers.
 
cwah said:
i had a mac (geared) motor on 16" wheel at 72v 35A which ended up around 2.7kw. but no wheelie.

so i'm surprised. what motor is it?
Click to expand...

My bike started as 2kw and I could wheelie very easily only using the motor...I just pulled the handlebar and gave
it some throttle in slow speed and you are up there.
4kw wheelies when you don't ask for a wheelie if you are not careful.

Motor is a chinese 7.8kg monster that can't take the wattage.

The motor doesn't matter as long as it can stand the power it will produce it.
16" wheel? maybe you mean 26"? geared 2.7kw motor? most geared motors are pretty small...something is not right here...
 
no, it was 16" wheel small folding bike.

that was the config:
Screenshot%202015-12-07%2013.04.37.png


So 155 Pounds Thrust of acceleration. I'd say that I'd need at least 100 Pounds Thrust more to wheelie. How much is it for you? (just choose the closest motor setting)
 
Roy,
thanks for the compliments. I almost always prefer functionality and performance over looks, but to me, most functional things look good. :)
I'm from Givataim. I ride off road (single tracks) all over the country.

cwah,
Some bikes are easier to wheelie than others, but it's the rider that does the the wheelie, not the bike, the motor, the power, the thrust or the wheel size.
Look at the video Baron posted. See how the rider is constantly balancing himself with his legs and body position. You can see he is a highly skilled rider by all the other tricks he can perform.
I don't wish to sound offensive, but if you want to wheelie you need balance, technique and practice, not to copy someone else's bike setup.

Avner.
 
Avner, Just moved from Ramat Gan recently, now I have where to ride :)
Keep up the good work!

cwah, My guess is that your bike doesn't really make the power you think it makes.
I'm betting the battery is constructed from simple 18650's that can't deliver the amps your controller
tries to draw.

For high power you need high quality lipo's or 18650's with around 3c of discharge rate which are very expensive.

and like Avener said, it's up to you if you wheelie or not, so once you got the power you want be sure to pull on the
handlebar in slow speed while giving that throttle "kick".
 
Not a matter of power, but geometry and weight distribution. Balance your build, it will much easier to handle. The more power you have, the more important it is to set proper geometry and COG.

Then, also much easier to have the throttle and rear brake on different sides of your handlebar, and a wider hadlebar.
 
I can wheelie all kinds of motorcycles... but electric vehicles tend to be much harder.

On a motorcycle, you have three controls for wheelies.. The throttle changes how much power(torque) the motor creates, the clutch changes both how the power is applied, and how much gets to the wheel... and the rear brake slows the rear wheel.

On a motorcycle there are two kinds of wheelies. power wheelies and clutch-ups.
On a powerwheelie, you just roll on a ton of power. the front comes up slow and if you keep going you can get to the balance point, but by then you are going FAST.
on a clutch up, you dump power from the motor using the clutch, to yank the front end up... the front comes up fast.. but you are not constantly accelerating, so you do not have to go that fast. You can actually stop while its coming up.


for an ebike to wheelie, you need that instant snatch up that a clutchup does, because no ebike (even a 10kw one) has the power to keep accelerating in a sportbike-like powerwheelie.
At the same time, once you're up in any wheelie, you need good throttle control to maintain balance... and most controllers do not have a torque style throttle control, so its even harder.
Since your throttle has to do the jerk of the clutch to get it up AND it has to be controllable to hold it... it makes it really hard, since it needs to be touchy to get it up... but then balancing it sucks.


Thats why most ebike wheelies come up some, accelerate more and come back down.
longer ones tend to yank it up higher then coast, with maybe some touches of power to bounce it upward.
I have yet to see a video of anyone stunting an ebike like we can with sportbikes and supermotos... but I would love to see it (or do it)
 
Good to hear a real motorcycle guy speak about wheelies since we ebikers don't know
how it really feels on a gas motorcycle.

MrDude, Baron here posted a youtube video of a guy with crazy control over wheelies with a stealth bomber.
 
That is because the geometry and balance are about good with the bomber, and the guy did practice a lot. It is harder with an ebike than a motorcycle, because we have no clutch and motorcycles are much heavier on the front. When you have a lot of power, the difference between lifting and backflipping is very small in the throttle control. Controllers could have a virtual clutch, this would help a lot.

When lifting the front is too easy, it gets much more difficult to control. It gets much easier if you balance the build as to be able to drift or lift at will with the rider's posture. The easiest way is to build a drifting geometry and fit pegs on the swing arm. Then you have the best control of the wheelie angle. Even better would be to build a wheelie control limiter program in the controller (or the CA), with an electronic inclinometer. This have been done with the Audi ebike and proved very reliable. The technology does exist also in the motorcycle industry for some time.
 
Many bikes have a tip over sensor that cuts power when a certain angle is reached.
I don't think it's too hard to mount one of these on an ebike but when the angle will drop back
to an angle that the motor needs to run then you will get a bust of power that will flip your a$$
no matter what angle are you at the moment since while in a wheelie you can throw and eyelash
on the throttle to flip you over.
 
The answer is not technology, it is balance.
To learn wheelies, I suggest being able to MANUAL first. (lots of youtube vids explain Manuals)
A Manual is when you move your butt back way over the rear wheel, extend your legs, and pull with your arms to raise the front from weight alone.
When the nose gets too high, move butt forward and bend legs...when nose gets low extend legs and butt back.
Once you find this balance and control...wheelies are EASY with even a SMALL amount of power.
 
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