Hub motor as mid drive

dario_ds

1 mW
Joined
Oct 7, 2022
Messages
17
I am from India and I don't have options in mid drive motor kit. Two famous names Bafang and Tongsheng are 4 times the price of hub motor kit. So the only option left is to use a hub motor as mid drive.
Details of the cycle : 3 speed chainring 28-38-48T. Rear freewheel 8 speed 13-14-16-18-21-24-28-34T.
I plan to mount a 350w hub motor at the lower part of the frame, little away from the bottom bracket. The hub motor would have a 16T fixed sprocket driving a 40T sprocket/chainring attached to the 3 speed Chainring.
My query,
1. Should I use a fixed 16T fixed sprocket or a freewheel?
2. What is a good way to lock the freewheel from unlocking/unscrewing?
Please guide
 
If it helps, there are quite a few threads around the forum, primarily in the non-hubmotor-drive / middrive subforums, about using hubmotors as middrives. Some of them get pretty far into it, even modifying the motor itself for easier operation (like Crossbreak's thread where he modifies a geared hubmotor to drive the axle as an output shaft, instead of spinning the case). Others are pretty simple, like Rassy's that just passes the pedal chain "under" the freewheel instead of wrapping around it, so that the freewheel needs nothing to secure it; it's still driven in the direction that would tighten it.

If you use a DD (direct drive, not a geared) hubmotor, you can run it backwards, flipped left-to-right, and put the sprocket on the disc brake rotor mount instead of using a freewheel, and not have to worry about it loosening. Or you can use either kind of motor with the sprocket on the brake rotor mount and drive the left side of the pedals like the old StokeMonkey system did. (you use a rightside pedal / chainring set on the leftside, in addition to the one on the right; they make ones for the leftside of tandem bikes you can buy, or just use a regular rightside one (but the pedal may unscrew on those, and won't on the tandem ones).

If you want a motor freewheel, and you're using it in a way that it could unscrew, you can file a notch (keyway) in it's threaded area along with a similar one in the motor freewheel threads, and insert a key between them after it's threaded on. This has been done in a few threads around here so there should be pictures, but you can find the general idea with a regular internet image search on shaft keyway / key.
https://www.google.com/search?q=shaft+keyway+%2F+key&tbm=isch


Note that if you don't use a motor freewheel, and the system is setup so the motor and pedals share a chain path, then pedalling without power will have drag on the pedals (possibly a lot, depending on your gearing ratios and the motor winding and type).

Additionaly if you don't use a pedal freewheel, the motor will drive the pedals so you need to choose a gear ratio that makes the pedals spin at a rate similar to what you would pedal at; if it's too fast it will throw your feet off the pedals and possibly whack the back of your legs. :( (like riding a tandem bike with a captain or a stoker that's faster/better than you, and not being synchronized).

Freewheels are not required, but they can be useful depending on your usage and circumstances. One of my original CrazyBike2 drivetrains used a powerchair motor driving the pedals from the left side (like the old Stokemonkey system which used a hubmotor for that), then the pedals output normally to the rear wheel. No freewheels in the system except at the rear wheel, so if my feet came off the pedals I'd get whacked in the calves. Also had a problem once with my pantleg getting eaten in the chainring, and I had to stop the motor and figure out how to get my torn pants out of the mess while I was stuck on the bike with my leg trapped against it. :( (a freewheel might've let me manually reverse the chainring spin by hand and undo the tangle; it probably wouldn' have stopped it from happening in the first place)


You seem to have already done this part, but the gearing (sprocket sizes) you'll need to determine based on how fast the motor will spin (RPM), and how fast you need the wheel to spin, and any parts of the frame that may get in the way of the chain path--beyond that, use the largest sprockets you can on each end of the system, so that you get the most number of teeth engaged with the chain for best torque transfer and least chain/sprocket wear (and also less noise).

If you choose a motor that will spin at about the same RPM as your pedals would, at the battery voltage you'll be using it at, then you don't need a big gearing ratio between them, they can be about 1:1 (so a 40T on the motor and 40T on the pedals) and the motor will just provide more power (or all the power if you like) into the pedal drivetrain.
 
amberwolf said:
If it helps, there are quite a few threads around the forum, primarily in the non-hubmotor-drive / middrive subforums, about using hubmotors as middrives. Some of them get pretty far into it, even modifying the motor itself for easier operation (like Crossbreak's thread where he modifies a geared hubmotor to drive the axle as an output shaft, instead of spinning the case). Others are pretty simple, like Rassy's that just passes the pedal chain "under" the freewheel instead of wrapping around it, so that the freewheel needs nothing to secure it; it's still driven in the direction that would tighten it.

If you use a DD (direct drive, not a geared) hubmotor, you can run it backwards, flipped left-to-right, and put the sprocket on the disc brake rotor mount instead of using a freewheel, and not have to worry about it loosening. Or you can use either kind of motor with the sprocket on the brake rotor mount and drive the left side of the pedals like the old StokeMonkey system did. (you use a rightside pedal / chainring set on the leftside, in addition to the one on the right; they make ones for the leftside of tandem bikes you can buy, or just use a regular rightside one (but the pedal may unscrew on those, and won't on the tandem ones).

If you want a motor freewheel, and you're using it in a way that it could unscrew, you can file a notch (keyway) in it's threaded area along with a similar one in the motor freewheel threads, and insert a key between them after it's threaded on. This has been done in a few threads around here so there should be pictures, but you can find the general idea with a regular internet image search on shaft keyway / key.
https://www.google.com/search?q=shaft+keyway+%2F+key&tbm=isch


Note that if you don't use a motor freewheel, and the system is setup so the motor and pedals share a chain path, then pedalling without power will have drag on the pedals (possibly a lot, depending on your gearing ratios and the motor winding and type).

Additionaly if you don't use a pedal freewheel, the motor will drive the pedals so you need to choose a gear ratio that makes the pedals spin at a rate similar to what you would pedal at; if it's too fast it will throw your feet off the pedals and possibly whack the back of your legs. :( (like riding a tandem bike with a captain or a stoker that's faster/better than you, and not being synchronized).

Freewheels are not required, but they can be useful depending on your usage and circumstances. One of my original CrazyBike2 drivetrains used a powerchair motor driving the pedals from the left side (like the old Stokemonkey system which used a hubmotor for that), then the pedals output normally to the rear wheel. No freewheels in the system except at the rear wheel, so if my feet came off the pedals I'd get whacked in the calves. Also had a problem once with my pantleg getting eaten in the chainring, and I had to stop the motor and figure out how to get my torn pants out of the mess while I was stuck on the bike with my leg trapped against it. :( (a freewheel might've let me manually reverse the chainring spin by hand and undo the tangle; it probably wouldn' have stopped it from happening in the first place)


You seem to have already done this part, but the gearing (sprocket sizes) you'll need to determine based on how fast the motor will spin (RPM), and how fast you need the wheel to spin, and any parts of the frame that may get in the way of the chain path--beyond that, use the largest sprockets you can on each end of the system, so that you get the most number of teeth engaged with the chain for best torque transfer and least chain/sprocket wear (and also less noise).

If you choose a motor that will spin at about the same RPM as your pedals would, at the battery voltage you'll be using it at, then you don't need a big gearing ratio between them, they can be about 1:1 (so a 40T on the motor and 40T on the pedals) and the motor will just provide more power (or all the power if you like) into the pedal drivetrain.
Thanks a lot for your suggestions. I will surely check the threads mentioned. I did try to search previously but didn't find.
I made a mistake by not specifying that I am using a geared hub motor. I cannot make a keyway on the thread of the motor as that would render the warranty as invalid. I am using a freewheel on the crank as you have said. On a geared hub motor a sprag clutch is used such that the motor drives the outer of the hub but driving/rotating the hub doesn't drive the motor, it freewheels.(you already know this) The reason I was considering to use a fixed sprocket was that in pedal assist mode my peddling may assist in motor movement and vice versa.
One method that comes to my mind about locking the freewheel on the hub motor is to weld it on a 2mm round metal sheet and bolt the sheet on the spokes holes. But if I need to freewheel it I would have to weld it on the lock nut of the freewheel and if fixed sprocket than weld the sprocket to the metal sheet. Any better idea?
 
Alternates for no-freewheel on output sprocket of motor:


If you are using a large enough diameter sprocket (for a motor that spins about the same RPM as your pedals), then you can bolt the sprocket directly to the spoke flange. If you can't modify the motor you'll need to use a lot of really tiny bolts to do this, which won't transmit as much torque as big ones but if there are enough of them and they are tight enough they may still work.


If you drive the lefthand side of the pedals instead of the right (like with the tandem left crank), you can use the disc rotor mount to bolt the sprocket to.




If you use a freewheel on the threaded freewheel mount, you could try loctite (threadlocker) on the threads...but it might not handle the torque necessary. There are two basic types, one which is able to be removed by enough torque, and one which requires heat to remove. I don't know if this would void your warranty or not.


Something to note is that a freewheel on a geared hub, with the hub driving it's core, will not spin the outside of the freewheel, because that's the whole point of the freewheel. The geared hub can only drive the motor case in the direction that the freewheel cannot drive the chain.


A DD hub can be driven backwards so that it *could* drive a freewheel in the direction that would drive the chain (and potentially unscrew itself).



Note that with a geared hubmotor, your pedals won't drive the motor itself (just the exterior hub), even with a fixed sprocket on it's input, because of the internal freewheel of the motor (sprag clutch). But the motor can still drive the pedals via a fixed sprocket.
 
dario_ds said:
amberwolf said:
If it helps, there are quite a few threads around the forum, primarily in the non-hubmotor-drive / middrive subforums, about using hubmotors as middrives. Some of them get pretty far into it, even modifying the motor itself for easier operation (like Crossbreak's thread where he modifies a geared hubmotor to drive the axle as an output shaft, instead of spinning the case). Others are pretty simple, like Rassy's that just passes the pedal chain "under" the freewheel instead of wrapping around it, so that the freewheel needs nothing to secure it; it's still driven in the direction that would tighten it.

If you use a DD (direct drive, not a geared) hubmotor, you can run it backwards, flipped left-to-right, and put the sprocket on the disc brake rotor mount instead of using a freewheel, and not have to worry about it loosening. Or you can use either kind of motor with the sprocket on the brake rotor mount and drive the left side of the pedals like the old StokeMonkey system did. (you use a rightside pedal / chainring set on the leftside, in addition to the one on the right; they make ones for the leftside of tandem bikes you can buy, or just use a regular rightside one (but the pedal may unscrew on those, and won't on the tandem ones).

If you want a motor freewheel, and you're using it in a way that it could unscrew, you can file a notch (keyway) in it's threaded area along with a similar one in the motor freewheel threads, and insert a key between them after it's threaded on. This has been done in a few threads around here so there should be pictures, but you can find the general idea with a regular internet image search on shaft keyway / key.
https://www.google.com/search?q=shaft+keyway+%2F+key&tbm=isch


Note that if you don't use a motor freewheel, and the system is setup so the motor and pedals share a chain path, then pedalling without power will have drag on the pedals (possibly a lot, depending on your gearing ratios and the motor winding and type).

Additionaly if you don't use a pedal freewheel, the motor will drive the pedals so you need to choose a gear ratio that makes the pedals spin at a rate similar to what you would pedal at; if it's too fast it will throw your feet off the pedals and possibly whack the back of your legs. :( (like riding a tandem bike with a captain or a stoker that's faster/better than you, and not being synchronized).

Freewheels are not required, but they can be useful depending on your usage and circumstances. One of my original CrazyBike2 drivetrains used a powerchair motor driving the pedals from the left side (like the old Stokemonkey system which used a hubmotor for that), then the pedals output normally to the rear wheel. No freewheels in the system except at the rear wheel, so if my feet came off the pedals I'd get whacked in the calves. Also had a problem once with my pantleg getting eaten in the chainring, and I had to stop the motor and figure out how to get my torn pants out of the mess while I was stuck on the bike with my leg trapped against it. :( (a freewheel might've let me manually reverse the chainring spin by hand and undo the tangle; it probably wouldn' have stopped it from happening in the first place)


You seem to have already done this part, but the gearing (sprocket sizes) you'll need to determine based on how fast the motor will spin (RPM), and how fast you need the wheel to spin, and any parts of the frame that may get in the way of the chain path--beyond that, use the largest sprockets you can on each end of the system, so that you get the most number of teeth engaged with the chain for best torque transfer and least chain/sprocket wear (and also less noise).

If you choose a motor that will spin at about the same RPM as your pedals would, at the battery voltage you'll be using it at, then you don't need a big gearing ratio between them, they can be about 1:1 (so a 40T on the motor and 40T on the pedals) and the motor will just provide more power (or all the power if you like) into the pedal drivetrain.
Thanks a lot for your suggestions. I will surely check the threads mentioned. I did try to search previously but didn't find.
I made a mistake by not specifying that I am using a geared hub motor. I cannot make a keyway on the thread of the motor as that would render the warranty as invalid. I am using a freewheel on the crank as you have said. On a geared hub motor a sprag clutch is used such that the motor drives the outer of the hub but driving/rotating the hub doesn't drive the motor, it freewheels.(you already know this) The reason I was considering to use a fixed sprocket was that in pedal assist mode my peddling may assist in motor movement and vice versa.
One method that comes to my mind about locking the freewheel on the hub motor is to weld it on a 2mm round metal sheet and bolt the sheet on the spokes holes. But if I need to freewheel it I would have to weld it on the lock nut of the freewheel and if fixed sprocket than weld the sprocket to the metal sheet. Any better idea?

Use tandem cranks (or use right square right taper crank on the left, you'll have to use two right pedals and apply very liberal threadlock on the left or it WILL uncrew itself and fast), and drive LEFT crank with motor reversed.

That's how I did it with RC drive, same principle.

FKbZnPuh.jpg


This is to prevent spinning the motor... though I'm not sure you need that if you motor is already gears and has overruning clutch.
Of course it will still spin your legs around under power, nothing you can do about it - otherwise you need freewheeling cranks, and they cost as much as hub motor...
 
amberwolf said:
Alternates for no-freewheel on output sprocket of motor:

Loctite Red Threadlocker seems to be a better idea. I will try that. What would you suggest, I use a fixed or a freewheel sprocket on the motor. My crank is freewheeled.
 
BalorNG said:
Use tandem cranks (or use right square right taper crank on the left, you'll have to use two right pedals and apply very liberal threadlock on the left or it WILL uncrew itself and fast), and drive LEFT crank with motor reversed.

That's how I did it with RC drive, same principle.

FKbZnPuh.jpg


This is to prevent spinning the motor... though I'm not sure you need that if you motor is already gears and has overruning clutch.
Of course it will still spin your legs around under power, nothing you can do about it - otherwise you need freewheeling cranks, and they cost as much as hub motor...
From what I understand of your post is that when the motor is powered the crank will also turn. I would not want that. I have seen a video on YouTube that drives the left side but that requires a complete modification of the bottom bracket. Not practical for my skill level. Same question to you, what would you suggest, I use a fixed or freewheel sprocket on the hub motor for drive?
 
dario_ds said:
1. Should I use a fixed 16T fixed sprocket or a freewheel?

A free wheel, with a geared hubmotor, is unnecessary, as long as you gear it to the cranks for an appropriate cadence, as amberwolf mentioned.

See my mid-drive linked below my post. It worked great for 30K miles.

If you can't find a tandem crank for the left side, a standard crank will work. Just re-tap the pedal hole threads, or Loctite the pedal.

Grin Technologies sold a similar setup at one time.

https://ebikes.ca/mstoke-g02.html
 
Warren said:
dario_ds said:
1. Should I use a fixed 16T fixed sprocket or a freewheel?

A free wheel, with a geared hubmotor, is unnecessary, as long as you gear it to the cranks for an appropriate cadence, as amberwolf mentioned.

See my mid-drive linked below my post. It worked great for 30K miles.

If you can't find a tandem crank for the left side, a standard crank will work. Just re-tap the pedal hole threads, or Loctite the pedal.

Grin Technologies sold a similar setup at one time.

https://ebikes.ca/mstoke-g02.html

I will have to fit it and see if my gear multiplier (40T on the chainwheel driving 16T on the hub motor ) produces any resistance due to the rotation of the motor hub/case. This is how it is when the hub motor is fixed on the rear wheel.
 
dario_ds said:
Warren said:
dario_ds said:
1. Should I use a fixed 16T fixed sprocket or a freewheel?

A free wheel, with a geared hubmotor, is unnecessary, as long as you gear it to the cranks for an appropriate cadence, as amberwolf mentioned.

See my mid-drive linked below my post. It worked great for 30K miles.

If you can't find a tandem crank for the left side, a standard crank will work. Just re-tap the pedal hole threads, or Loctite the pedal.

Grin Technologies sold a similar setup at one time.

https://ebikes.ca/mstoke-g02.html

I will have to fit it and see if my gear multiplier (40T on the chainwheel driving 16T on the hub motor ) produces any resistance due to the rotation of the motor hub/case. This is how it is when the hub motor is fixed on the rear wheel.

Tecnically it should not, because it has an other overruning clutch inside.
 
BalorNG said:
dario_ds said:
Warren said:
dario_ds said:
1. Should I use a fixed 16T fixed sprocket or a freewheel?

A free wheel, with a geared hubmotor, is unnecessary, as long as you gear it to the cranks for an appropriate cadence, as amberwolf mentioned.

See my mid-drive linked below my post. It worked great for 30K miles.

If you can't find a tandem crank for the left side, a standard crank will work. Just re-tap the pedal hole threads, or Loctite the pedal.

Grin Technologies sold a similar setup at one time.

https://ebikes.ca/mstoke-g02.html

I will have to fit it and see if my gear multiplier (40T on the chainwheel driving 16T on the hub motor ) produces any resistance due to the rotation of the motor hub/case. This is how it is when the hub motor is fixed on the rear wheel.

Tecnically it should not, because it has an other overruning clutch inside.

But I would be turning the outer case/hub of the motor which has the weight of the aluminum casing with the metal ring gear in it
 
dario_ds said:
I will have to fit it and see if my gear multiplier (40T on the chainwheel driving 16T on the hub motor ) produces any resistance due to the rotation of the motor hub/case. This is how it is when the hub motor is fixed on the rear wheel.

As BalorNG mentioned, unless there is something wrong with your hubmotor, there is no more drag than from a simple two bearing jackshaft...basically none.
 
G'day Dario_ds.
I thinned down a fixie sprocket, screwed it on a hubmotor then screwed a freewheel on next to it. Fixie goes to the rear wheel, freewheel to the chainring / pedals. The freewheel acts as a locknut to stop motor torque from unwinding the fixie. Take a look at my build thread "AussieRider's chopper project" for pics. Sorry, I don't know how to add a link to the thread.
Have fun mate.

AussieRider
 
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