Hub motor vs BBSHD for hill climbing fat guy

[Im_Getting_Better]

Hello everyone.

I am stuck deciding between a BBSHD and a hub motor (Edge 1500, Crystalyte, 9c).

I am about 140-150 KG (bit more than 300 pounds), and the hills in my area are mostly 4-5% grade with a few 7-8%.

I have tried a BBSHD at a local shop, and it was great for flats but there were no hills to test it on.

I would love your opinion as to whether or not the BBSHD and hub motors would be able to climb those grades with me on.

Thank you very much.

 

[slomoshun]

Powering through the rear cluster is the better approach, go with the BBSHD.

 

[dustNbone]

Agreed. A BBSHD with a strong drivetrain will never leave you in doubt as to your ability to climb any hill. The limiting factor will probably be your ability to keep the front wheel down while you do it (assuming you can find a hill that steep).

I weigh under 200lbs, but hills here are often over 12% grade, and I often carry nearly 100 lbs of cargo. The BBS02 has never failed to get me up with fairly minimal drama, if it's in the right gear it doesn't even get that warm. The BBSHD has even more grunt.

 

[Im_Getting_Better]

Thank you for the replies!

 

[dogman dan]

For your current weight, the mid drive.

Unless you went with a very large hub motor, preferably in a small wheel. 2000w plus,, more or less small motorcycle rather than "bike".

Typical hub motors would be a reasonable choice, once you are under 250 pounds though.

 

[Im_Getting_Better]

For your current weight, the mid drive.

Unless you went with a very large hub motor, preferably in a small wheel. 2000w plus,, more or less small motorcycle rather than "bike".

Typical hub motors would be a reasonable choice, once you are under 250 pounds though.

Thank you for the detailed responses, it has helped immensely!

 

[Pinesal]

What is a BBSHD I see that EVERYWHERE but I can't find a definition.

 

[Keith Pegg]

I was at 300 lbs and did build a rear drive 1000w 20ah. Has been great but not on hills, I can shift to a lower gear and push the amps and get up most okay. I am down to 270 and hope to get down to 200 lbs and then no problem. PS my bike is a 29" and 26" would have a lot more power however not speed.

Best of luck on your build, EBikes are great.

 

[footloose]

What is a BBSHD I see that EVERYWHERE but I can't find a definition.

Bafang '1000W' mid-drive... big brother of mostly well-regarded Bafang BBS02.
Higher power and more robust controller and motor, gets solid reviews from owners.
Available from multiple vendors (EM3ev, Lunacycle, etc).
Good description here.

 

[amberwolf]

I'd go for the middrive; I haul heavy stuff and animals on the flat terrain here in Phoenix, but need quick acceleration (which is equivalent to short hill climbing); to do what I need to do (less than 4 seconds to 20MPH, would prefer 2) takes at least 4KW with dual hubmotors, one 26" and one 20" on CrazyBike2, and probably needs at least 6-8KW with dual hubmotors in 20" on SB Cruiser (but at present I only have about half that on SBC).

To do the same thing with a middrive with at least a startup low gear and a cruising high gear would probably take significantly less power. Only reason I'm not doing that already is it was easier to build around hubmotors than a middrive, and I already had them. I did use a homebuilt middrive for a long while, but frame flex kept causing derailment and destruction (now I know how to avoid that).

So if I were to start over and build from scratch I'd use a middrive, and I think you'd be happier with one. Just keep in mind that chainrings, chains, and sprockets will wear quite a bit faster under the motor power than just pedal power would do. As long as you know how to shift gears as needed for varying conditions, there will be less wear.

 

[Im_Getting_Better]

Ok, so definitely the BBSHD for me,

Thanks everyone!

 

[Ykick]

Check this thread and consider adopting the idea/concept of only a handful of wide range cassette gears.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=84097&hilit

Also, select the smallest stock chain ring option available or buy one of those fancy rings in the upper 30’s?

Good systems but don't lug 'em while applying high power. Keep motor RPMs up. You'll love the feel of the bike and ease of wheel R&R.

 

[cycleops612]

Mid drive.

A major issue for you is the max load of the bike.

most MTBs? are 120kg total, some, 130kg.

Another issue is street legal in Oz is only 200/250w, which equals a lot of pedaling, but still....

Maybe you should consider a motorbike?

 

[markz]

Dont worry about the street legal bullshit.
Unless you are doing stupid shit and scaring people no one cares about a silly little bicycle.
Buy a 250W holographic sticker if you are worried, its not like the pig knows what to do. The pig will never bug you but if he does he just see's the official looking sticker. What are they going to do? Do a dyno test :lol: I never understood this fascination with obeying the law bs. Yeah if you want to goof off and be a moron, then you will be stopped and fined but never based on the motor wattage. Then by all means buy a 250W motor to obey the law.

Buy the BBSHD mid drive unit, or if you got more coin the Lightning Rods, and theres another one I forget the name of.

 

[dogman dan]

Or,, actually,, just lose some weight pedaling. Avoid hills till you do,, and then a more discreet 500w rear geared motor will be fine for your weight. Run it on 1000w though.

To get up that hill legal, on 250w,, that does require the mid drive, even for those that weigh less.

But I agree,, cops will not tend to hassle you for the motor, unless they already hate you for some reason.

 

[cycleops612]

I hear u guys re cops.

I have checked it out here in sydney oz (a continent away from Perth (like LA/NYC distance~)), and consensus is u could be in trouble if u crash blind drunk into a cop car and break their windscreen. Perth is a different state but methinks eu rules apply nationally (we really are incredibly stupid here - if ever a country needs this wonderful tech its Oz. Petrol bikes are completely banned.)

BUT

fact is, your entire investment of love, time, money... in your new commute strategy, is subject to the indulgence of every single cop in town. they can ground u anytime..

NB, legal speed max is 25kph/15mph, which even an ungoverned 250w easily exceeds, so plenty of excuses to pull u over.

Further, as a mate says, if u want to make a truly absurd statement perfectly logical, all u have to do is insert the word insurance in it.

Would worker compensation cover u commuting on a non kosher bike crash? It would here in a car.
As an "economist", i think more than most of the very real cost of risk that must be factored into choices.

just saying, it is possible, and some peace of mind is desirable and valuable.

SO:

yeah, of course do it, but be discreet, which isnt hard on a mid drive. try to look kosher. Stealth is a bigger issue here than USA. A 1000w ~8kg DD hub motor is not a good look at all.

I would tell any noob to get a mid-drive. it seems silly to not opt for: climb ~anything very efficiently, pedaling optional. thats what a proper vehicle should do.

u could also have a stealthy second rear geared hub motor for extra ~stealthy power.

dunno, but it sounds u need a fat bike . Americans can compensate for the huge bike weight with big power, we cannot so easily.

from sniffing around alibaba:

https://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=1221&SearchText=mid+drive+electric+bike+150kg

search "" =
mid drive electric bike 150kg

& also some filters turned on as u can see from the link.

e.g.

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/new-style-48v-750w-road-bike_60468995959.html

not bad but max load is 125kg

the big tyres of a fat bike would suit u too, they are still the best suspension

 

[cycleops612]

This looks not bad for you.

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/fatboy-electric-bike-150kg-capacity-fat_60586224503.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0.ipKHgG

they claim 150kg max load, then later 120kg, but the bike is 30kg~, which explains that.

The frame is persuasive. The rear rack is integrated with the frame, in a strenghthening sort of way u will note.

I would suggest to any young player that they pass on the included battery. They usually disappoint. Treat battery as a separate purchase. A 500wh lifepo4 pouch cell pak would be my choice. a balance between c-rate, capacity, weight (5.5kg), range, durability & simple charging.

 

[Tats]

I have a BBS01 in a Giant Reign and a BBS02 in a Specialised Big Hit 3 - both running at 36 volts. While I'm about 80 kegs the bike and battery and all the crap I carry commuting is about 35 kegs - and the BBS will haul me up any hill on the Perth bike path with a little bit of pedalling, so the BBSHD will have no problems.

I get my bikes off gumtree searching for "downhill" as these bikes are really strong and can take a big jump - they're also older so have the 68-73mm bottom bracket size for easy fitment - so if you haven't got a bike yet maybe look at some of these. They're also really comfy with the long suspension travel. The only real issue with this type of bike is figuring out how to mount a battery but the Thule rack is very good.

Here's my bikes - https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=83301 and https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=66566 - both been very reliable commuting the 40km round trip per day. I never need to use anything lower than middle of the rear 11-32t and have a 48t on the front.

I've also recently installed a MAC rear hub on a mates mob an thats got plenty of torque too - but I think the BBSHD is probably the way I'd go if I were you.

 

[cycleops612]

I have a BBS01 in a Giant Reign and a BBS02 in a Specialised Big Hit 3 - both running at 36 volts. While I'm about 80 kegs the bike and battery and all the crap I carry commuting is about 35 kegs - and the BBS will haul me up any hill on the Perth bike path with a little bit of pedalling, so the BBSHD will have no problems.

I get my bikes off gumtree searching for "downhill" as these bikes are really strong and can take a big jump - they're also older so have the 68-73mm bottom bracket size for easy fitment - so if you haven't got a bike yet maybe look at some of these. They're also really comfy with the long suspension travel. The only real issue with this type of bike is figuring out how to mount a battery but the Thule rack is very good.

Here's my bikes - https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=83301 and https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=66566 - both been very reliable commuting the 40km round trip per day. I never need to use anything lower than middle of the rear 11-32t and have a 48t on the front.

I've also recently installed a MAC rear hub on a mates mob an thats got plenty of torque too - but I think the BBSHD is probably the way I'd go if I were you.

what an excellent, helpful post mate. avoiding 40km a day in a car is a good effort for the planet.

The elephant (groan) in the room, esp on US sites, is that so many riders are BIG these days, and whilst standard MTBs are an awesome ebike starting point for sub 95kg riders, as u say, allow ~35kg all up for the bike on the road for the commute, and u r maxing out most MTBs at a gvm of 110-120kg at that rider weight. The curious thing is most help requesters dont even mention the critical factor of rider weight.

i love the "downhill" search tip.

I can see why many in the US would opt for a 750w+ DD hub & heavy steel cruiser bike, but its not for everybody, or suitable for all terrains.

having solved the bike strength issue, my next concern would be the limits of the inevitably delicate derailleur transmission with a big guy and 500w+ of power. Maybe a stronger chain etc. and a strong IGH bears thinking on.

dunno, but as there are many production 450-500w mid-drive bikes, I suspect that power level is ok.

 

[WoodlandHills]

A 3-speed IGH will work well with a BBSHD, but only if the limited choice in sprockets is suitable. The are delivered with either an 18t or 22t and, depending upon your budget, go up to 27t. I am 175lbs and ride exclusively off-road and I found that I needed more gear, eventually making a 34t sprocket by attaching a BMX chainwheel to an OEM sprocket. If at all possible, you want to spend most of your time in direct-drive second gear for longevity. I use 1st for steep climbs or tight single track and 3rd for flats/downhill or when I need the most speed, mostly it's in 2nd gear though.

It will all depend upon how well you can climb the hills in your area with the stock cog. Sturmey and Shimano cogs are interchangeable, available in two offsets and are dirt cheap. They just have a limited choice. The aftermarket, essentially one guy in Europe, has a bigger selection, but some are comparatively expensive although the quality is excellent.

 

[Tats]

I use cheap low spec chains, chainring and cassette because I don't worry about weight. They tend to last about a year treating them disrespectfully ie no gear sensor and shifting under power. A little Rock n roll gold every week really helps but the big killer is the sand after rain. Ride in the dry and be sympathetic and the chain life will surprise you. 25-30 bucks each for shimano/sram nine speed is all you need imo. Just carry a breaker and spare link/chain and you'll be fine.

 

[cycleops612]

A 3-speed IGH will work well with a BBSHD, but only if the limited choice in sprockets is suitable. The are delivered with either an 18t or 22t and, depending upon your budget, go up to 27t. I am 175lbs and ride exclusively off-road and I found that I needed more gear, eventually making a 34t sprocket by attaching a BMX chainwheel to an OEM sprocket. If at all possible, you want to spend most of your time in direct-drive second gear for longevity. I use 1st for steep climbs or tight single track and 3rd for flats/downhill or when I need the most speed, mostly it's in 2nd gear though.

It will all depend upon how well you can climb the hills in your area with the stock cog. Sturmey and Shimano cogs are interchangeable, available in two offsets and are dirt cheap. They just have a limited choice. The aftermarket, essentially one guy in Europe, has a bigger selection, but some are comparatively expensive although the quality is excellent.

Good info.

Yes I hear the sturmies are strong from the petrol bike scene. rolloff are revered also, if the weight/cost is ok (perth folks are generally rich). Nothing for a bike is expensive vs driving a car .

Unless i am missing something, i was thinking more of stronger chain and sprockets than gearing, given OP is ~double our weights.

OTH, strain on chain is more to do w/ power/torque of the motor than GVM. I am probably imagining problems. The OP is probably fine w/ sensibly ridden standard shimano etc stuff.

I wonder what other big riders think?

I am not intimate with perth terrain, but Oz, being the oldest continent, is very worn down. Nothing like as dramatic as socal.

 

[cycleops612]

I use cheap low spec chains, chainring and cassette because I don't worry about weight. They tend to last about a year treating them disrespectfully ie no gear sensor and shifting under power. A little Rock n roll gold every week really helps but the big killer is the sand after rain. Ride in the dry and be sympathetic and the chain life will surprise you. 25-30 bucks each for shimano/sram nine speed is all you need imo. Just carry a breaker and spare link/chain and you'll be fine.

a very athletic big guy i know thinks nothing of huge tours (like sydney pilbarra via perth, western argentina, west coast of india... ), swears by rolloff mostly for the very reason you cite - u can have a sealed chain guard with a single sprocket. A perfectly lubed chain is simply a squirt of oil thru a hole each night with a few pedal turns. No grit.

probably too heavy for your needs tho.

 

[Tats]

Don't get me wrong- I'd love a rohloff and it'd be perfect for what I do, but being of Scottish descent I haven't found long enough arms for one if you get my drift.

 

[amberwolf]

eventually making a 34t sprocket by attaching a BMX chainwheel to an OEM sprocket.

Tha'ts what I did (with a sprocket off a multispeed freewheel, disassembled) for my in-frame IGH on SB Cruiser (so I can actually pedal it by myself; it has to be geared WAY down or it will hurt so much I can't do it...and then I'd be stuck, or die trying (almost did the one time I had to pedal it a few miles home after running out of battery unexpectedly; now neither one of those things is going to happen, but...just in case. ).
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=67833&p=1227985&hilit=bolt*+sprocket*#p1227985