Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw NO LONGER FOR SALE

[xenodius]

ive always been intrigued by trikes as well. the combination of the cornering abilities with some consideration of aero would make for an excellent electric vehicle. leaning trikes are obviously even more intriguing for their cornering capabilities. however...i do question the (relitevely more) complex nature of a leaning trike as well as the lack of examples of them. maybe i just prefer bikes because of their simplicity and i the fact that they are narrow enoguh to fit between cars

john, ive seen the Kanteltrike before and thought that it was awesome! i hadn't seen the Munzo TT before but it looks well built and like it would be a lot of fun.

xenodius, thanks for the jetrike link! after reading around on there for a bit i realize that he and you both make a great point about the geometry. the jetrike seems like the ideal trike. now someone needs to build an electric one!

I have been interested in leaning trikes for some time as well, I think even a 3k/5kw trike would serve most of my transportation needs, though a 10-12kw trike would serve all my transportation and also be extra fun on the weekends =) I originally thought I might not bother with a fairing, but I may have access to a 3d-printer in a few months; who knows, I may be able to design a thin and modular fairing with a complex venting system that way. Great thing about 3d-printing is that complexity is free, especially since you can just drop in generic components from Thingiverse and make it part of your print... anything from clasps to velcro to plastic ball bearing cups. First things first though, build the trike!

I really have to credit Henry Thomas for most of the technical realizations I've had about trikes. I think he really has made a great trike. One of the few things I intend to change about his design is the front wheel/driveline; I think a moving bottom-bracket would be a huge mistake on a serial-hybrid. The only advantage, a simple chainline, is eliminated in a serial-hybrid configuration. And interestingly, efficiency of series-hybrid drives might not be as bad as one may think: http://www.hupi.org/HPeJ/0015/0015.html Besides, gearing for a 10kw ebike is a mess. And chain maintenance is a mess too. The main reason I'd keep a pedal system at all is to operate as a "bicycle", and to get exercise while on the go-- physiologically ideal exercise, without starts and stops.

Another thing I've considered changing is the track. His design has a mere 700mm track width, which is quite narrow. It would be useful to be so narrow when riding on bike paths or sidewalks, but... I'm not sure if I'd ever really want to do that if I can keep up with road traffic. Even Thomas admitted he'd make it at least a little wider if he built it over again, though primarily to avoid people thinking they can pass him when there isn't actually any room. I wont have that problem with MidMonster, but I will likely suffer from excessive kinetic energy, which also merits a wider track.

The model looks good! I agree about the fork. And the swingarm does seem long... handling and unsprung weight are valid considerations, but it'll also allow more travel for the same suspension, so emphasize whatever is important to you! I really really like the handlebars and fairing, though =) =)

 

[jansevr]

john, my rear swingarm doesn't seem to be nearly as wide as yours. however, i did manage to fit 10ah 100v of lipo down there =). next i shortened the length of the swingarm by 2 inches (just about as much as i could due to the battery). also i did some more modeling, this time new brake rotors and the rest of the brake system. its starting to look more like a functioning bike now!

you can see in this last pic, i added a small curved tube that the motor wiring runs through. if i weld something like this on the end of the dropout, you should be able to put the bike down no problem.

 

[John in CR]

That looks bad ass.

 

[xenodius]

Wow, definitely the best rendering yet! And after looking at it without the fairing, not only is it well, modeled, but it looks purty! Can't wait for real-life photos. I feel like you could fit more of the batteries on top of that rear swingarm, depending on the travel.

 

[John in CR]

I love the look, but my vote remains to move the pivot instead of having the long swingarm that is certain to result in poor handling on bumpy sections of road. You can still retain that look but even better with more batteries in that ideal location under the seat. I haven't done it often, but every controller I've had on a swingarm failed, so now I avoid subjecting them to that level of road vibrations.

 

[agniusm]

The only thing left to fix is those awful angles on the dropouts. If building from scratch, why not weld thick steel in? I suppose you would need to glue larger components in controllers so they wont shake off from vibration? Somehow i dont like the idea fitting battery and controllers on the swing arm at all. Sounds trouble.

 

[jansevr]

you're right about the dropouts. i was just looking at your cargo bike build - you have very excellent welding. now all you need is a bigger motor to match the cargo beast! that little crystalyte will most likely not be too happy with all that weight. when you say weld the steel in do you mean like your build? i hope you don't mind if i use the same idea? and the batteries/controller in the swingarm isn't completely decided or it can always be changed even after building it.

 

[agniusm]

Sure i don't mind after all i took somebody's idea and used it I would rather shortened swing arm and kept the battery and controllers on the frame so they would have less vibration. If i were you, i would start my own thread regarding your bike as we are trashing Johns thread which is for sale on hes motor

 

[jansevr]

thanks agniusm and you're right about the thread. sorry john.

 

[John in CR]

My threads always take a meandering course and mostly at my doing, so there's no such thing as trashing my threads, just a bit of excess fat like me and my posts. :lol: . Once we have some builds then I'll collect as much useful info, tips and hints along with videos and pics for the top of a new thread in the pics and video section. Then just edit the top post in this thread to link there for beefy info to direct newcomers.....It's almost time to take Hubmonster.com live too.

 

[jmygann]

need motor for my ELF ... street legal bicycle @ 1000W assist

 

[neptronix]

need motor for my ELF ... street legal bicycle @ 1000W assist

You've asked this by emailing me, by asking the same question in tons of different threads ( usually attaching a picture of your bike ), and never looking through the thread to see if it's suitable or not.

Are you on a guerrilla advertising campaign, or are you just unable to read every spec sheet you've ever looked at?

 

[John in CR]

I think Hubmonster will be overkill for the ELF. MidMonster or MiniMonster used in a mid-drive should do the job nicely.

 

[jmygann]

You've asked this by emailing me, by asking the same question in tons of different threads ( usually attaching a picture of your bike ), and never looking through the thread to see if it's suitable or not.

Are you on a guerrilla advertising campaign, or are you just unable to read every spec sheet you've ever looked at?

I am not as astute as you , but would still like to get the best currently available motor for this machine (the ELF).... I have no vested interest in this company . They are assembling them now and I thought some folks at endlesssphere might be interested in developing/ supplying a motor.

 

[John in CR]

Jimmy's excited about his new ride on the way, and I don't blame him. I'd want the most efficient motor for it too, since a vehicle like that is all about efficiency and practical transportation. Personally, I think the MiniMonster or the MidMonster are better choices, because Hubmonster would be overkill. OTOH it doesn't look like a vehicle he'll be picking up to carry upstairs or put on a car or bus rack, so the extra weight doesn't hurt anything. Maybe he's thinking of having a CA setting to be able to boost power way up for those occasions he's got a straight line and no cross winds and feels like doling out a lesson about the power potential of EVs.

 

[jmygann]

thanks ... I'm trying to get you connected to Organic Transit. is there a link to or specs on the MiniMonster or the MidMonster ?

 

[John in CR]

thanks ... I'm trying to get you connected to Organic Transit. is there a link to or specs on the MiniMonster or the MidMonster ?

Here's the for sale thread for the MiniMonster http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=40859

Here's the for sale thread MidMonsters ready to go for mid-drive, which will be in New Orleans in less than 2 weeks http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=47607. We have 6 or 7 of those that haven't been spoken for yet.

Thanks for the referral. Have them check the info, and if they're interested I can give them my toll-free number to discuss it further. These motors really are in a different class than other hubmotors, and the higher rpm per volt and low power levels they want to run means they can forget the weight, expense, and other issues of the NuVinci, because these high efficiency motors could be geared very low to give them wall climbing ability with a single speed. It also gives their customers a route to higher performance that the other route does not. Greater efficiency, lower cost, lower weight, regen braking seems like a winning combo to me, especially since running a system well below its performance limits is what makes a truly maintenance free system possible.

John

 

[John in CR]

My recent encounter with the ground was a blessing in disguise. Now you guys get to see the guts. Not only is the motor wired with a switch type thermistor, but the dual hall bundles that are inside shielded cables (a first for me to see in a motor, which I suspect may contribute to the silent operation) have 6 wires in each, so you already have an extra pair of wires built into the motor. Stator dimensions are 180mm diameter and 58mm thick made of 174 silicon steel lams. All interior exposed metal has some kind of coating to inhibit corrosion, and the 6 x 10awg phase wires ensure you can pump plenty of power through it.

I'm ventilating mine while I have it apart, and after running it sealed for 8 months pushing my big load with a 74V nominal pack and 210A peak battery current, I'll leave it to your imagination what I'll do with a 120V pack and no worries about current.

View attachment 2

 

[hillzofvalp]

Cool. I am interested to see how your cooling holes go...

 

[John in CR]

Cool. I am interested to see how your cooling holes go...

I'm doing slots with the thinnest angle grinder blade I can get, no holes other than threaded holes to mount blades from the outside, though it's conceivable that I might add small holes to go with the intake slots I plan. I anticipate the possibility of running as a mid-drive at some point, and I want to leave rotation direction open. That means just straight radial cuts on everything, which will be nice and quick with the only thing slowing me down being keeping it cool. 60-80 slots for the exhaust vents may give me a nice blade effect (much like a straight bladed squirrel cage fan) and decent flow without interior blades.

I have an NPC thermistor to replace the switch type one that comes with the motor, so I'll be able to add temps to video of real world high power mountain climbs. Once I do the blast of the waterfall road climb near my house, along with the mile plus altitude climb over the nearby mountain pass, then I'll feel confident in issuing a worldwide challenge to all hubmotor wannabees. If someone comes up with a reasonably priced alternative that's better, I'll have no problem switching to it. I'm not married to these motors, just their price/performance ratio, and since no hubmotor has demonstrated that they can match the performance, I could justifiably double or triple the price. The sad thing is that I'd probably increase unit sales by increasing the price drastically.

John

 

[xenodius]

The sad thing is that I'd probably increase unit sales by increasing the price drastically.

John

You might be right on that one! But... please don't Next couple months will be interesting, after everything is sorted out I should know when I'll be able to start. Not a day goes by that I don't dream about the perfect EV. I often think about settling for a crystalyte hubbie on my current commuter, then I think about all the things I won't be able to do... but this is the ticket. It'll be a long process, but worth it!

 

[John in CR]

I actually am going to do it Xenodius, but it will be done under a different branding much like the company that a few years ago was selling Xlyte motor kits with lead batteries for $1800. The part of me that insists that it's price that holds back EV's more than anything else will ensure that I always have great price offerings to those smart enough to find them. I'll always have low price stuff here on ES.

 

[Bluefang]

hmm its getting more and more temping to get one of these motors as my next toy Crank it up to a road legal 20kw on a light weight modern 250 sports bike and see how much fun i can have in the simplest way possible. Light weight hub powered bike = soooo damn simple. I would probably do basic venting and put the hub in the lowest diameter wheel i could, Anyone have pics of a sports bike with a tiny rear wheel......i wonder how odd it would look.

Your probably right about the price points, and i am sure everyone on this forum is hugely thankful that you are keeping the lower price available for everyone here With the condition they post a few videos of it working

 

[John in CR]

Look at the little bike Arlo1 has been ripping on, or the fully fared bike that came out from Hanebrink. I think something a bit larger could still look great with Hubmonster's fatty 13", which ends up a 19-20" diameter wheel. The key is going to be matching it with the right front wheel. Scooter tires are now available in 14", 15", and even 16" http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/5/32/404/28190/ITEM/Michelin-City-Grip-Front-Tire.aspx, so the biggest challenge will probably be finding the rim. To my eye as long as you stay within about 2" of each other in wheel diameter the relatively small rear wheel can still look good. You'd just need to trim down all of the sportsbike's dimensions by 10-20% to keep the proportions right.

I'm just a hacker, and a fat one at that. In my videos I show you the kind of performance easily possible with an all up load of 180-190kg. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=48399&p=716576&hilit=hubmonster#p712625 Every kg you can trim will go straight to your bottom line performance. For the cyclist weight guys it will be easy, but even for someone who weighs 100kg, they can add 10kg to the front end for a moto front assembly and 10kg more battery, and still come out 5kg ahead of me. That means real fabrication artists like Bluefang and many of you other guys can have performance to match the looks of whatever you can build.

John

 

[jansevr]

im not sure if you guys have seen my most recent design with this motor...it seems very similar to the size of arlo's bike. the stand over height (from seat to ground) is only 26 inches. its hard to get a real sense of scale looking at the computer, but this bike is very low - and should have a good center of gravity with the lipo centered and fairly low. this is modeled with the rim john is running which is still relatively small - and i think the bike still looks great - because of how small/low it is. the wheelbase is 5ft (60 inches - 152.4 cm). i wanted to make it decently long to be able to handle the power of 2 hubmonsters and to be able to fit 48 6s lipo!