I did a gun-control petition

[Drunkskunk]

.223 Remmington is designed for a lower pressure than 5.56 Nato. Essentualy they are interchangable, but a rifle designated as a .223 may have a lighter, thinner barrel, and the blowback tube or piston will be tuned diffrent. Its considered a bad idea to run 5.56 Nato exclusivly through a .223 rifle for the same reason it's considered bad to run P+ loads exclusivly in many guns.

A 5.56 Nato designated rifle can shoot .223 round, but the blowback tube or piston may need to be tuned as the lighter load often won't have enough pressure to cycle the action reliably.

Further more, 5.56 Nato is always Full metal jacket, in compliance with the Geneva convention that Military will only use FMJ bullets. FMJ bullets pass through the body leaving a smaller wound than other bullets, Instead of expanding in the body and blowing a limb off. .223 can be FMJ, or they can be hollow point, which is much better for hunting as it will kill rather than cruely wound an animal.

And to clear up another issue, the Ar-15 was the prototype of the M16 and M4, but the design of the reciever is used to make AR-15 civilian rifles, with non-military parts. They aren't automatic, and aren't directly interchangable with an M16 or M4 which are capable of being "Machine guns". But all the things that make the M16 great for crawling around in the jungle hunting aggressors also make the AR-15 great for crawling around in the woods hunting dinner. A Bushmaster Ar-15 chambered for .223 Remington is a hunting rifle, that looks like a military M16, but doesn't function the same. The guy sitting next to me at the office used one to take a deer last week.

The term "Assault weapon" is ambigous. It generaly means a military weapon, but there are many diffrent legal meanings, making it a useless ter,. "Assault Rifle" means a Military fully automatic shoulder fired weapon"


The U.S. goverment tried prohibition. That failed as the vast majority of the population ignored the law and went on drinking anyway. My grandfather, the Minister, was one of the ones bringing hooch into the country.

And Consumption of alcohol wasn't even a fundimental right named in our constitution. Gun ownership is, Its the 2nd amendment, ahead of many other important rights.

Can you imagine the public reaction to the goverment trying to deprive us of one of our even more basic American rights? A right that was part of the founding of our country?


You will only be able to remove guns from humanity when you can remove violence, corruption, and greed from humanity. Or invent something worse so that guns are retired the same way swords, slings, and bows were retired centuries ago.

 

[liveforphysics]

But all the things that make the M16 great for crawling around in the jungle hunting aggressors

People love to use words like that as a critical part of the brainwashing folks in uniforms into killing other humans. The "agressors" are actually called people, generally people who believe they are doing the right thing or defending there homes or belief structure etc, and we are generally the people invading there countries killing them due to thinking some policy difference (perhaps they wish to conduct business differently, like communism, or perhaps they want to grow plants used in making products American people purchase etc), so we send people to invade there land and kill them, and we help to justify these actions by calling them words like like "agressors" to de-humanize them so it's easier for our brainwashed youth to look at another person in a scope, pull the trigger, and harm/kill other people.

also make the AR-15 great for crawling around in the woods hunting dinner. A Bushmaster Ar-15 chambered for .223 Remington is a hunting rifle, that looks like a military M16, but doesn't function the same. The guy sitting next to me at the office used one to take a deer last week.

IMHO, the NATO 5.56/.233 round is used because it's the perfect industry driving thing to be hit with (because it's likely to cause wounds rather than deaths, wounds mean more hospitals, medicine, transport vehicle infrastructure, along with a new soldier to replace the wounded one), and it's a complex failure prone weapon that needs lots of maintenance.

My brother is a SEAL. He says the AK47 (and it's dozen variants) are the guns that can be counted on to shoot when sandy/muddy etc, and tend to kill the things they hit. He also says the accuracy advantage of the AR over AK has never and will never make any difference in combat usage. The AR derived guns have to be constantly serviced and cleaned if you're going to count on it firing, and even then it's prone to jam from a magizine getting sand/mud dried into casings. This is largely due to the higher taper angle on the 7.62mm NATO casing the AK uses preventing it from sticking in the chamber or misfiring from not completely seating in the chamber if it has a spec of sand in it like a fussy AR based gun. Fortunately though, they don't pick a weapon based on anything to do with it's performance in the US, they pick it on which arms company is lining the pockets of which crooked generals and senators etc. I would like to think our guns being inferior choices has at least saved a tiny bit of harms from being done in the world.


I should also add, my brother (who is a US Navy SEAL) is the first one who told me the worlds largest best funded terrorist organization in the world is NATO (I had never really looked at it that way until then, and it becomes obvious).

 

[Miles]

Whats depressing and scary is the amazingly terrible acts of mass killing the people in uniforms do to each other with guns, because of the twisted things the governments brainwash into them, somehow warping and justifying them into meeting in large groups in various unfortunate places to practice some socialist communal living funded on our dime before meeting up to kill each other.

I also saw that more Americans were killed by the civil war (our own people murdering themselves, sometimes family members) than all Americans kills in WW1 and WW2 combined.

Of all the places guns should or shouldnt be, the place where they've very clearly caused the most harm and massive scale terrible unfathomable acts is when they are in the hands of people in uniforms following orders.

I can't argue with that, Luke. I still find the idea that people need to stockpile assault weapons, in order to feel secure, deeply depressing.

 

[liveforphysics]

Whats depressing and scary is the amazingly terrible acts of mass killing the people in uniforms do to each other with guns, because of the twisted things the governments brainwash into them, somehow warping and justifying them into meeting in large groups in various unfortunate places to practice some socialist communal living funded on our dime before meeting up to kill each other.

I also saw that more Americans were killed by the civil war (our own people murdering themselves, sometimes family members) than all Americans kills in WW1 and WW2 combined.

Of all the places guns should or shouldnt be, the place where they've very clearly caused the most harm and massive scale terrible unfathomable acts is when they are in the hands of people in uniforms following orders.

I can't argue with that, Luke. I still find the idea that people need to stockpile assault weapons, in order to feel secure, deeply depressing.

I agree with you 100% my friend. It's the sickest most twisted use of guns, and they wrap it up in a uniform waving a flag and call it the right thing to to do.

In fact, if you wanted to stop attrocities, I would support a full gun/weapons siezure and destruction over all government weapons from all governments around the world. Obviously that's just as impossible/unrealistic to expect to happen as banning them from un-lawful citizens of a country, but it would definitely be taking the guns away from the people who statistically do the most harms with them statistically by ~>10,000:1 over private individuals having them.

 

[flathill]

what to think
in my twisted though experiment
I would like us each to have personal nukes
like a self destruct alien Predator
then we would all treat each other much different
no laws would apply
no bullies
dont fcuk with me
or I will fcuk you harder
that is what is happening

we need weapons as the gov is the big bully brother
anyways Im printing my own hydrogen fuel cell drones with lasers weapons
4d cameras and 3d velocity microphone (not pressure based)
so whatever
also serves as the airborne internet3 for when the gov starts to plug in too far

 

[bigmoose]

One thing I noticed today, and one thing I read...

Thing I noticed when I drove by the g u ... I mean "sportsman's store" today, the parking lot was about twice as full as usual. Inside business was crisp, but not rushed. They were still honoring their December sale prices on "sportsman's tools."

Thing I read: Those folks that are advocating iron clad gun control and/or confiscation should put a sign in their home window and on their car(s) that reads: "Gun free zone." We should then check back in 6 months and a year to compile the statistics to determine if their theory was correct.

 

[Arlo1]

Im trying to stay away from this stuff. But If you want to try to help prevent things like this we need to look at the cause of the problem.
The kid had some issues or just a bad day... Single mom? Broken home? Kids are brought up to be wussies these days. Life will get hard.

Lets look at it this way. You need NOS on your car for what ever reason... Then you shatter pistons time after time, do you ban NOS from your car? Or do you look at why the NOS shattered the pistons? Maybe the timing was to advanced or maybe the compression is to hi or maybe the rod to stoke ratios were wrong, maybe the fuel is low octane and old and stale, do we adjust these causes or just ban NOS and look at the problems that arise from not having the HP needed to climb the hill ahead or win the drag race or what ever it is you built the vehicle to do.

Kids go though shit people go though shit. We need to try to learn how to train our kids to be ready for this tough world ahead. Things are going down hill taking away grades in schools overprotecting kids from bullies (bullies are wrong but kids need to learn to cope) taking score keeping out of games, parents who are working long hours to make ends meet.... There is no easy answer but things need to change and one way or another they will.

 

[flathill]

ok imagine the insane kid was trained by his mother to use guns
insane right?
but that is what happened
now imagine a coulple kids with keys to launch nukes
kids in their 20s
insane right but it is happening
this story while tragic is the least of our problems
focus on the war machine
stop it before every country has armed drones
imagine a flock of a hundred million kamakazi drones
insane right but i can make them
at an iphone factory
stop reading the fear
watching fear
become good news
stop fear and we will not need
at first it was kill with a punch or knife close
then across the room with a gun
then miles with a gun
then many miles with a rocket
the across continents icbm
what is next is that power but worse in any small time gov
dictator
or worse yet a democracy full of ignorant citizens who are programmed

 

[deronmoped]

I bet all the criminals would like all the guns to be gone.

I mean how are the weaker among us going to protect themselves. A gun is a "big" equalizer. How are women going to protect themselves, how will old people protect themselves... Guns are used constantly in self-defense. Even you gun haters are protected in a way, while not even owning one. No criminal knows if the house they are thinking of breaking into has a gun owner or not. Try putting up a American flag or put a veteran sticker on the window. Bet that criminal goes down the street to the libs. house.

Our government wouldn't try to slaughter us wholesale, with all the gun owners out there. First they would convince us that our guns were bad for us and we would be better off without them.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

IMHO, the NATO 5.56/.233 round is used because it's the perfect industry driving thing to be hit with (because it's likely to cause wounds rather than deaths, wounds mean more hospitals, medicine, transport vehicle infrastructure, along with a new soldier to replace the wounded one), and it's a complex failure prone weapon that needs lots of maintenance.

As someone who was intimately involved with the programme to fix our totally crap SA80 5.56 AR and at least make the thing tolerably reliable, I can confirm that the original decision to go down to 4.85mm, which was then revised to 5.56mm, was partly because of this very reason. The wounded absorb more enemy resources than the dead, so, leaving the moral issues to one side, it is logistically preferable to wound in warfare rather than kill.

My brother is a SEAL. He says the AK47 (and it's dozen variants) are the guns that can be counted on to shoot when sandy/muddy etc, and tend to kill the things they hit. He also says the accuracy advantage of the AR over AK has never and will never make any difference in combat usage. The AR derived guns have to be constantly serviced and cleaned if you're going to count on it firing, and even then it's prone to jam from a magizine getting sand/mud dried into casings. This is largely due to the higher taper angle on the 7.62mm NATO casing the AK uses preventing it from sticking in the chamber or misfiring from not completely seating in the chamber if it has a spec of sand in it like a fussy AR based gun. Fortunately though, they don't pick a weapon based on anything to do with it's performance in the US, they pick it on which arms company is lining the pockets of which crooked generals and senators etc. I would like to think our guns being inferior choices has at least saved a tiny bit of harms from being done in the world.

First off, pick up an AK, any model (other than one of the rather nice UK specially made ones). Shake it. You'll find the bloody thing rattles like a can full of ball bearings. The reason the AK is liked is that it is bog simple (you can strip and reassemble it blindfold - try that with the 98 tiny parts in our SA80A2......). It's also very tolerant of having mud and dirt in the mechanism, because the tolerances are so wide. The final strong point is that 7.62mm ammo has stopping power. The extra kinetic energy not only kills more effectively but also stops the enemy dead in their tracks in close quarters combat, a very useful thing for folk like the Seals or our own Special Forces.

The big downside with the AK is that the accuracy is dreadful. Leaving aside that it only normally has an iron sight, all those big tolerances mean the thing doesn't shoot that straight. They were also manufactured in some pretty shitty factories over the years, where quality control wasn't high on the agenda.

Light assault rifles like our SA80 were intended to fit a role that's different to that of the very old AK47 (the "47" stands for 1947). The intention was to give soldiers the ability to engage at longer ranges, hence the reason our own SA80A2 has such a high accuracy and is fitted as standard with a 4X SUSAT sight. There was also a lot or pressure here at the time this weapon was evolved to make it short, as it's predecessor couldn't be carried slung by guys in vehicles, meaning they climbed in and out with weapons that were, effectively, in a difficult position if they needed to engage. We lost a lot of guys in Northern Ireland because of this, the snipers learned that the guys had to unsling their old, long, SLRs to get in and out of vehicles, making them sitting targets. Arguably this decision to go down to a small light, easily damaged Individual Weapon was flawed, given the type of warfare we've found ourselves engaged in over the past 20 years. As always there was a fair degree of commercial politics and incompetence in government involved in the whole process, too.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

Thing I read: Those folks that are advocating iron clad gun control and/or confiscation should put a sign in their home window and on their car(s) that reads: "Gun free zone." We should then check back in 6 months and a year to compile the statistics to determine if their theory was correct.

The curious thing is that here, that is pretty much exactly what we do. The vast majority of homes here will not have a gun on the premises.

The exceptions are farms, where there may well be a shotgun locked in a cabinet somewhere or the homes of the small number of criminals (often gang or drug related) who carry guns.

The US fear of what I think you call "home invasion" (makes it sound like a military operation) just doesn't exist here. Sure people lock their homes against being burgled, but the vast majority aren't that concerned about anything happening whilst they are in their homes.

Somehow having tens of millions of homes here without guns doesn't make any of us targets or make us want to have guns to protect ourselves, so why should the US be so different?

 

[deronmoped]

Guns are made to kill or dissuade, that's their purpose.

The more you have the more death you'll have period!

Doc

That's a pretty political narrow view.

People collect guns, they use them for target practice, as a investment, as a hobby... Probably 99.999% of guns bought were never bought to kill people.

So the six million Jews that were slaughtered by the Germans would agree with you. NOT. If the six million Jews would of been armed, there would of been no Holocaust. And that probably would have been true with all the mass slaughters in history.

The most destructive killing devices man has ever invented, ended up saving millions more then they ever took.

 

[perbear]

Guns are made to kill or dissuade, that's their purpose.

The more you have the more death you'll have period!

Doc

That's a pretty political.../quote]

With the exception of tailor made target shooting firearms this is an exact observation independent of political view.

In Norway it is fairly easy to aquire firearms as long as you have an acceptable reason for use (hunting, law enforcement, organized target shooting). Formal training for handling firearms are required and weapons shall be stored in a secure locker, or be passivated (vital parts removed or plugged) when not in use.

 

[Lessss]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/fact-checking-nra-press-conference-185542748.html

 

[Lessss]

Pike heads don't kill people, British soldiers pitch capping people for fun kills people.
Seriously weapons control has been around for a looong time, even before guns and it has never worked or achieved what it set out to do. The only thing it has ever achieved is a vulnerable disarmed populace ripe for the "cops"/government to abuse.

 

[John in CR]

Guns aren't going to be outlawed, so why waste time discussing it? Occurrences like Sandy Hook and Columbine arise from mental health and poor parenting issues anyway, so the answer lies there. The theater shooting incident had the same roots with a lack of necessary follow thru by those who identified the problem in time.

Let's not forget about how the press is complicit by sensationalizing every event. Leave the wackos anonymous instead of making them infamous. Report it as only what it is "Some sicko killed a bunch of first graders and teachers before offing himself. To all you wackjobs out there, if you're thinking about doing something similar, don't take innocent people with you, just do the world a favor and get some help or just kill yourself. We will no longer make you famous, because we know that is your only intention.

Since the subject of war was brought up, war is big business, a very profitable one. Without wholesale changes including a verifiable independence between lawmakers and those who contract with the government, nothing can change. They can't have an exception allowing insider trading...Corporations aren't people...NY banksters can't be given exception letters to long standing commodities trading rules put in place to prevent manipulation...and on and on.

John

 

[Chalo]

Guns aren't going to be outlawed, so why waste time discussing it? Occurrences like Sandy Hook and Columbine arise from mental health and poor parenting issues anyway, so the answer lies there.

So is poor parenting to blame for all the effed-up middle class white dads who kill their families and then themselves?

If they had to do it with a shovel instead, I bet they wouldn't.

 

[gestalt]

no, but poison and drowning seems pretty popular for the firearms unequipped

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d...20f3e780b613e5&bpcl=40096503&biw=1280&bih=685

 

[Chalo]

Somehow having tens of millions of homes here without guns doesn't make any of us targets or make us want to have guns to protect ourselves, so why should the US be so different?

Effective marketing.

Nobody every went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.

 

[neptronix]

But see, we have to stop the gun deaths, because those are different than the car bomb deaths, knife deaths, poison deaths, gasoline bomb deaths, starvation deaths, drone strike deaths...

They count as double kills, you know!

 

[neptronix]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/s...infant-mortality-millennium-development-goals

A bit of an old article, but holy crap. 8-5 million kids under 5 die a year across the world, mostly of natural causes, mostly in undeveloped nations.

We have it very good here in the developed world!

 

[John in CR]

Guns aren't going to be outlawed, so why waste time discussing it? Occurrences like Sandy Hook and Columbine arise from mental health and poor parenting issues anyway, so the answer lies there.

So is poor parenting to blame for all the effed-up middle class white dads who kill their families and then themselves?

Some if not most of them, but you can't tell me 100% weren't f'd up in the head to do such a thing. I should have used "and/or" instead "and" in my first post. I've had guns almost all my life, and I've got kids, and there's exactly 0% chance that me or my offspring would commit such a horrific act with guns or with anything else. If I did have a kid with "problems" or "issues" or is "special", or whatever you PC types say is the current correct descriptive words, then I would definitely have to reexamine having any guns in the house, but the idea of applying the same to every household wouldn't even cross my mind.

 

[Joseph C.]

What a great individual liberty to have. Ownership of a semi-automatic weapon....

As the greatest atrocities committed in the history of the world have been committed by governments against their own populations that were unable to effectively resist, yeah, I'd say it is a great liberty to have. :wink:

Do you honestly believe having a few million guns would stop a country with the world's most sophisticated military if it truly desired to wipe out obstinate citizens?

I don't understand where this delusion comes from it just seems like a poor excuse to keep ridiculous armaments.

They'd be a greater chance of the world ending next year than a military complex possessing nukes, aircraft carriers, drones, submarines, the stuxnet virus, tanks and 1.4 million personnel being stopped by pea shooters. They might as well try and defend themselves with bows and arrows for all the good it would do them.

 

[Lessss]

A well armed militia is not to defend against the army, it is to defend against the COPS or rather the arm of the government the public is most likely to interact with.

 

[Joseph C.]

A well armed militia is not to defend against the army, it is to defend against the COPS or rather the arm of the government the public is most likely to interact with.

So this is the gist of what you are saying:

This mythical US government is going to undertake a hunting spree against its own people but it won't bother using its near omnipotent military complex.

Instead it will only use poorly-trained groups of people with very limited weapons when it goes to war with the gun-owning members of public. Thus allowing the gun holders to defend themselves and successfully ward off their evil attackers?

That's an even more ludicrous rationale for possessing ineffective armaments than conjuring up the imaginary civil war.

This is lunacy stuff Lesss.