I go from 48v to 60v and no increase in top speed

[Russell]

Morph,

One more thing; before you run off and buy something else why not work with your present setup a little longer?

Do you know what the current limit is on your controller? If not one way to find out is to take Nomad up on his offer to help and hook up his WU meter to get some concrete data. With the meter attached accelerate hard a few times which will peg the controller at its limit. Record the maximum amps then do a high speed run on a nice long flat road and see where the current levels off at when you can’t go any faster. Repeat in the opposite direction just to cancel out any grade or wind. If you’re hitting the max amps on the high speed run then a controller with a higher current limit like the one you posted earlier should boost your speed.


-R

 

[morph999]

ok....I just did it...lol.... 44.6 mph ....not bad so maybe it was the wind? Or maybe I need 72v ? Since I mounted the speedometer to the front wheel, I just went in there and lifted it up and push the throttle....44.6 and that's after I went riding for 20 min so maybe more than 44.6

Morph,

In all the back and forth I forgot to ask you if you're getting better range now. You say above that you went riding for 20 minutes and the batteries were still above cutoff so how many miles did you go and what was the the maximum and average speed on your speedometer?

-R

I think Nomad is right about LVC on the controller being the cause. It says 41 volt cutoff that's what too high so I'm going to use 60v and see how far I can go with a little pedaling. I'm going to do that tomorrow. It's been too cold to go out for more than 20 min. I rode it around today but came right back. I need to fix my brakes too because that squealing is very loud. Tomorrow, i'll do a ride with 60v and see how far I go.

 

[morph999]

I think I should just forget about a 5303 motor because I don't really have the money or really the enthusiasm to maintain two ebikes. One is enough unless someone wants to buy this one off me for maybe $450. completely assembled. Goes 27 mph. lol.

Here is what I'm thinking. I might leave it as is and just buy maybe 3 12v15ah B &B batteries and put those on the bottom and then have 2 12v9ah on the top for 60v with a greater capacity overall. I was also thinking of getting that 48v8ah nicad but I'd have to put it in parallel and I don't know how to do that and I don't know if I want to try, either. Also, if I bought nicd pack, I'd still have LVC problem unless I upgraded the controller. This whole thing is a mess.

I'm either going

1) upgrade controller...by buying one at e-crazyman off ebay or buying one off comcycle USA and buying 3 12v15AH B&B batteries

2) just buying some more batteries for greater range and saying the hell with speed

 

[Almasi]

I think I should just forget about a 5303 motor because I don't really have the money or really the enthusiasm to maintain two ebikes. One is enough unless someone wants to buy this one off me for maybe $450. completely assembled. Goes 27 mph. lol.

Here is what I'm thinking. I might leave it as is and just buy maybe 3 12v15ah B &B batteries and put those on the bottom and then have 2 12v9ah on the top for 60v with a greater capacity overall. I was also thinking of getting that 48v8ah nicad but I'd have to put it in parallel and I don't know how to do that and I don't know if I want to try, either. Also, if I bought nicd pack, I'd still have LVC problem unless I upgraded the controller. This whole thing is a mess.

I'm either going

1) upgrade controller...by buying one at e-crazyman off ebay or buying one off comcycle USA and buying 3 12v15AH B&B batteries

2) just buying some more batteries for greater range and saying the hell with speed

It will be easier to go for option #2 you know this will work and will be cheap...

Option #1 will kill your battery lot faster...but will make you happy for that short ride

 

[nomad85]

If you put batteries in series they should be the same capacity. It would be better to get 4-5 more 9ah batts and use them in parallel with your current ones, I can sell you some for 10$ each as they are slightly used(10 or less cycles) Or get 4-5 of the other batteries and use those instead. I could also help you get a parallel harness put together. that should improve the performance.

 

[Russell]

Morph,

For the record 41V (10.25V/battery) is a good LVC for a 4-12V SLA pack. My LVC is 31.5V (10.5V/battery) and when I hit it my batteries have given pretty much all they're gonna.

And you still didn't say how many miles you went in 20 minutes. If you can get 10 miles at 25 mph you're doing well with those batteries. And yes if you just settle for a little less speed you'll go quite a bit further. Below 20 mph you can help a lot by pedaling...and you might even enjoy the exercise

Please find out what your present controller current limit is and what current you draw at your top speed BEFORE you switch out the controller. I'm not sayin' don't buy the new one just find out where you're at now or you are just troubleshooting blindly.


-R

 

[Russell]

Morph,

For the record 41V (10.25V/battery) is a good LVC for a 4-12V SLA pack. My LVC is 31.5V (10.5V/battery) and when I hit it my batteries have given pretty much all they're gonna.

Edit: Of course my max current draw is 15A so I suppose if you are drawing big amps you'll experience a lot more sag than I see and get it much sooner so you could be hitting the LVC prematurely.

And you still didn't say how many miles you went in 20 minutes. If you can get 10 miles at 25 mph you're doing well with those batteries. And yes if you just settle for a little less speed you'll go quite a bit further. Below 20 mph you can help a lot by pedaling...and you might even enjoy the exercise

Please find out what your present controller current limit is and what current you draw at your top speed BEFORE you switch out the controller. I'm not sayin' don't buy the new one just find out where you're at now or you are just troubleshooting blindly.


-R

 

[Zoot Katz]

The 5C nicads will work.. yes.. but don't do it..considering your weight and expectations..

If you weighed 150 lbs, and wanted jack rabbit takeoff but not as much sustained top speed the nicads would be ok... You sir .. are going to need lithium to satisfy the need for speed.

I only have $1000.

That's what I said too. And then I started reading here before spending that on batteries alone and I still don't have lithium.

 

[Drunkskunk]

I think I should just forget about a 5303 motor because I don't really have the money or really the enthusiasm to maintain two ebikes. One is enough .........

Here is what I'm thinking. I might leave it as is ............. This whole thing is a mess.

I'm either going

1) upgrade controller...by buying one at e-crazyman off ebay or buying one off comcycle USA and buying 3 12v15AH B&B batteries

2) just buying some more batteries for greater range and saying the hell with speed

Man, that is the smartest post you have made since coming here. 'Bout Time. So now maybe we can really help.


The way I see it, you can't really do anything untill you know for sure how much current your bike is drawing while running at top speed. We all are making a bunch of guesses, but these are theories that need proving, By you, measuring what it's really doing.

with an unloaded speed of 44mph at 48V, you can probably turn this into something fast and cool, But I wouldn't spend another dollar on it untill you really know what you have, and that takes measuring.

Get a Watts Up meter, most RC shops have them, and get connectors to put it between your battery and the controller. Make the wires thick, 10 guage, and long enough to tape it to your handle bars while you're testing.
That will tell you a bunch of things, but most important right now is how much current you are drawing.
It can also tell you how far your volts drop, and how many watts you've used since turning it on. That acts like a fuel gauge.

After you get some data from the meter, and keep some records of your speeds and distances from the CatEye, we can give you much better advice on how to make your bike kick serious ass.

 

[Mark_A_W]

This thread is a train wreck...


SLA batteries on a bike?? 105kg rider + what, 30kgs? of LEAD. Lead is for fishing sinkers...


Wrong rim on motor....


NFI what current is being drawn...



Just stop now, save your money, and buy something decent that's proven.

 

[dogman dan]

No kidding the whole thing morph is going through is a train wreck.

Morph, I don't KNOW ebikes ca's 8 ah nicad pack will power up a 530whatever. I've never even touched a 5300 series motor. I do know that if you buy from them, what they advise, you will get a working rig. It may be that you will need 16 ah of pack size to get the performance you want. But I don't think you or I for that matter, is ready for building your own battery. I'm not impressed with falconev personally, if that is where you got the forsen. It does sound like you got whatever was in the used bin thrown together.

Talk to ebikes ca and get what they advise, AFTER you have twice as much money. Right now you are going to go as fast as you go at 48v and that is just how it is. Just ride it and get used to 27 mph till you have the bucks to get what you really wanted. It took me 3 motors to get what I really like best, so you are not alone on this one.

To go fast on $1000 budget, start looking for ICE motorcycles and scooters in the over 100cc size.

 

[John in CR]

Morph,

While you're saving your money up for a sufficient rig for your size and desired performance, get your current motor mounted on a smaller rim and you will go faster, especially running 60V. I'm surprised you haven't melted your motor yet, because with that large wheel and your size, it's running way below its efficient range. That's why your batteries are dumping. Even the with the big motors I have, the one running on a 14" motorcycle rim (20" dia tire) is a bit faster and a lot quicker than the one running on a 17" rim (23"+ tire), and the 14" is pushing a significantly heavier bike...identical motors, controllers, and batteries. The smaller wheel is just a better match for the motor's torque curve hauling my 240lb weight.

You should be running at 80-85% of your no load speed, and since you're getting only about 60%, that means your wheel is too big. With a properly sized wheel, then 60V may get you close to where you want. Being a big guy and wanting some performance, you'll still want more, but the right sized wheel will get you having more fun while you learn more and decide on something more. I guarantee you don't want to throw a bunch of amps at that little motor, because you will just melt it.

John

 

[dogman dan]

That makes a lot of sense to me John. The fast motor, which his is supposed to be, are intended for smaller rims. The motor is just lugging now apparently.

 

[Russell]

That makes a lot of sense to me John. The fast motor, which his is supposed to be, are intended for smaller rims. The motor is just lugging now apparently.

Yes and not to take anything away from John I said that on the first page of this thread and I got the idea from ElectricEd who posted it on another of Morph's threads :?

-R

 

[John in CR]

That makes a lot of sense to me John. The fast motor, which his is supposed to be, are intended for smaller rims. The motor is just lugging now apparently.

Yes and not to take anything away from John I said that on the first page of this thread and I got the idea from ElectricEd who posted it on another of Morph's threads :?

-R

I just thought maybe 3rd time was a charm, and it's really the only thing that will help without significant risk to that motor. With a 160lb cyclist type in a superman tuck it might be the right size wheel, but a large person presents too much to the wind for that motor to get in its stride, and his speed measurements are plenty of info to prove so without current data. I'm surprised the motor isn't toast after going through a charge in one mile.

John

 

[Russell]

It's very difficult to troubleshoot a problem like this. First you ASSUME since he got the kit from Cycle9 that it was made to work together. Second, Morph has little experience and until recently didn't even have a speedometer to tell any of us his loaded/unloaded speeds let alone a wattmeter to troubleshoot with. Third, we all have our own ideas and sometimes the overlapping ideas and just the volume of information is too much to process.

All of the ideas offered to get Morph greater speed are valid; more battery capacity and a more powerful controller will likely give him a few more miles per hour. Still I think what we've come to realize is the motor is not well suited to this application, in a 20" wheel it would be badass.

Let's see if we can get a concensus and tell Morph to sell the motor and start over...and start a new thread


-R

 

[GGoodrum]

FWIW, moving a hub motor, any hub motor, from a 26" wheel to a 20" wheel will reduce the speed, but will increase the torque. On a 26" bike, I got a 5304 up to about 45mph with a 72V a123-based pack and a 4110-modded controller that had the current limit bumped up to about 65A. To get roughly the same speed and torque on my 20" folding bikes, I used a 5303 with the same pack and a modded controller.

Also, anything above about 35 mph, wind resistance is going to be the biggest factor. It takes gobs more power at 40mph than it does at 30. Frankly, I'm surprised you are getting even close to 30 with SLAs and that much weight. I agree with Hi-Power that 60A is what it would take to get closer to your goal, but I don't think you will get enough watts out of SLAs, even with a 60A controller. Too much voltage sag.

-- Gary

 

[Drunkskunk]

Yeah, thats why I was telling him to get a watts up meter. We all are just making assumptions based on what little he can tell us. We can't really help him until he knows what he really has, and he won't know untill he can measure it.

I agree, its probably a motor ment for a 20" wheel. if it is bouncing against the current limiter, then My thoughts echo Ed's and others about re-lacing the wheel into a 20", or maybe a 24" wheel would be enough. probably not. it might be better just to sell it and move on.

I agree, we could help him best by coming to a consensus, but I think he needs to measure out what he realy has first.

 

[dogman dan]

Maybe lace it 20" and then sell it? I guess it took three times for it to sink in for me too. :lol: I think Morph and I are a wee bit alike, hence the three tries for me to find a motor I liked. I do think we have sorted out that Morph wants a $3000 ebike. So do I, but being an older fart, I can stand it to ride my $1200 bike. Hang it there Morph, you'll get there eventually. Meanwhile relacing the rim is more affordable than starting over. Even if the total speed doesn't improve, the way it rides and the draw on the batteries might improve enough to make it easier to wait for the cash to go big. I'm still curious how hot the thing gets, as well as how much amps it pulls.

 

[Russell]

FWIW, moving a hub motor, any hub motor, from a 26" wheel to a 20" wheel will reduce the speed, but will increase the torque. On a 26" bike, I got a 5304 up to about 45mph with a 72V a123-based pack and a 4110-modded controller that had the current limit bumped up to about 65A. To get roughly the same speed and torque on my 20" folding bikes, I used a 5303 with the same pack and a modded controller.


-- Gary

I don't think that's the case here. With a no-load speed of 44.6 mph on 48V it's likely he's not hitting the peak power of the motor. The no-load speed on a 20" wheel would be in the vicinity of 34 mph and he'd probably hit the same 27 mph top speed because the motor is able to climb higher up it's power curve and it would also run more efficiently at that speed.

Try this for yourself;

Go to the ebikes.ca simulator and select a Clyte405 motor in a 26" wheel with a 48V/8AH battery and a 20A controller (I don't know what Morph's is). When you do that you get a curve showing a no-load speed of about 47 mph and a peak power of 700W at 35 mph. That power is not enough to get to 35 mph so in practice the speed on a 26" bike for this combo would be somewhere in the mid 20's. Now just change the wheel size to 20" and you get a no-load speed of just over 36 mph and the power peaks at about 700W and 27 mph. 700W may be enough for 27 mph so in this case the smaller wheel could be as fast or faster.


EDIT: added curves






-R

 

[Drunkskunk]

I had looked this up last night and found similar results. But in my case at 185 pounds I use 750 watts to go 25mph. Thats why I threw in the sugestion of a 24" rim. There is such thing as a 22" rim as well, but tracking one down, and replacement tubes and tires would be a challenge.

 

[MidniteTweeker]

Since Morph is catching his breath, someone earlier suggested getting a better bike than a Walmart special. Excellent advice. Sounds like he's a big guy, carrying a lot of heavy batteries, trying to go fast.

If that doesn't scream for starting with a quality frame, I don't know what does. Frame failure at WOT going downhill will not be an enjoyable experience.

MT

 

[morph999]

I could be 250 lbs...I haven't weighed myself in a long time. I didn't do anything today. I didn't feel like it.

I got three problems.

1) Low voltage cut off on the controller...it's at 41v and I agree with Nomad that it's way too high so even if I bought two 24v18ah NIMH packs, I'd still have the LVC problem. Right?

2) I don't think I have the range that I need even if the LVC was lowered

3) speed could be a little more but I could live with what I got

I really love this bike. I bought it because I loved the rugged look of it so I'd hate to get rid of it. The reason I don't buy a scooter is because they look sissy.

 

[morph999]

Good news !!! The Forsen is not a geared hub motor. It's direct drive. I don't know why I thought it was. Cycle9 told me it wasn't.

So what do I do now? It can probably handle 72v.

I think this is what I should do. Get a 72v 45amp controller and put 72v of NIMH batteries on it.

Maybe two of these....I have the money for it

 

[Ypedal]

No.. you need lithium.... and a different motor.

edit : those 12ah nimh are only good for 25 amps with acceptable voltage sag. more than this and they won't live very long..