If you could reset the speed/power limit what would it be?

[Ypedal]

Funny enough, i tried, called the local DMV, asked about it, was transfered to 10 different departments to reapeat myself over the course of a few hours.. bottom line....

" If it has a VIN, you can register it as a scooter, if it does not have a VIN.. it's a bicycle and we dont want to hear about it " .

 

[Jeremy Harris]

Funny enough, i tried, called the local DMV, asked about it, was transfered to 10 different departments to reapeat myself over the course of a few hours.. bottom line....

" If it has a VIN, you can register it as a scooter, if it does not have a VIN.. it's a bicycle and we dont want to hear about it " .

Here (and in a few other countries in the EU, I believe) you can build pretty much any vehicle you like, as long as it complies with the law, and get it registered. There's a process for getting it inspected and tested (takes about a hour and half), after which it gets given a VIN and registration number (assuming all is in order). Cost is reasonable for those building one-off vehicles, at £55 for a moped, £85 for a motorcycle (about $84 and £130 US respectively). The regulations are a bit of a pain, but are only a relaxed version of the stuff that cars and motorcycles are supposed to comply with anyway, so not that tough.

 

[SamTexas]

Funny enough, i tried, called the local DMV, asked about it, was transfered to 10 different departments to reapeat myself over the course of a few hours.. bottom line....

" If it has a VIN, you can register it as a scooter, if it does not have a VIN.. it's a bicycle and we dont want to hear about it " .

I am sure it's the same, if not worse, here in the USA. I would like to hear one actual experience from someone in the USA who has successfully registered his/her ebike.

 

[gensem]

As soon as you add a motor to a bicycle people will complain saying that you should follow rules because they already have to follow alot of rules.
But as far as limits go, i wouldnt limit power, just speed. Go over the limit and you ll get a ticket.
If you ride on at the street along with cars (as a lot of people in ES do) you just need more speed to be safe.


Maybe something like this.
20mph speed limit = regular bicycle
35mph speed limit = not allowed to use bikepaths at that speed but still a bicycle.
Over 35-40mph and it should be treated as a moped.

Till now no one cares about my ebike but im sure laws ll arrive as soon as more fast ebikes show up.

 

[Cephalotus]

I think that the rules in Germany (some other EU countries) are quite ok.

We have

1.) Pedelecs: 25km/h motor limit and 250W continuous power limit.

In reality Pedelcs with BionX or Bosch motors consume 20-30A at 36V for short times and are legal, so peak power is much higher than 250W. Also the typical chinese motors with 36V 14A controller seem to be legal and bikes with those motors are sold at discounter stores.
Most Pedelecs stop supporting you at around 27km/h, I guess that 29km/h would be within the tolerances. My Cute 85 (225rpm) runs 30km/h at full batteries, the XinFeng runs 33km/h at full batteries, which is to fast to be legal imho.

Pedelecs have all those privileges that bikes have. You can build your own, you can use bike lanes, you can take them with trains and public transport, you have a 1,6 per mill alcohol limit, you do not need a driving licence, you can pull a trailer, mount spike tires, transport 1 or 2 children and so on.

Example:

KTM Macina 29 with Bosch motor


2.) s-Pedelecs 20km/h limit without pedalling, 45km/h motor support limit, 500W continuous power limit

those are "fast bikes" and look like Pedelecs but they need to have certain parts like a mirror, special tires and so on. You have to mount a number plate and you loose your bike status. You also need insurance and you can't built those on your own. You can't even change brakes, forks or similar things...
You need a drivers licence.

Until now you do not need to wear a helmet.

Example:

Bulls E45 with goswiss drive hub motor (note the mirror, lights, speedometer, licence plate, etc...)

3. small power vehicles. 45km/h motor support, 4000W max power, no pedals are needed
You need a drivers licence and insurance.

You need to wear a helmet.

Example:

El Moto (48V, 31,5Ah, 2000W max, 45km/h max)

4. motor bikes / cars. No limits

You need a (higher) drivers licence

Example:

Note the pedals!

Twike active (353V, 24Ah max, 85km/h; 5000W max, 2 persons)


In my opinion a bike should stay a bike. Nobody is able to get 1000W continuous power from his feet and for most people 250W contionous is more than doubling their own power. I also do not like the 25km/h limit, but most likely there is some tolerance and within a city and other bikers (average bike speed is 12-15km/h btw) 25km/h + tolerenace seems reasonable.
250W+ does help A LOT on hills. If you do not belive this just switch off your motor.

we have the option for legal 45km/h "bikes", which drive like bikes, but lose some privileges. Those are very fine outside the cities or for commuters which have enough space to run fast. Otherwise if you can pedal on your own at 30km/h there is nobody who will limit you...

If you don't want to pedal there are plenty other options, but of course you lose the bike status and also bike components are not used beyond 45km/h.

Finally here is a example for a bike with a 110W max. output motor:

What you see is the bike + motor (Vivax assist) + controller + battery. The weight incl. the battery is 11,5kg.

best regards

 

[Cephalotus]

Personally I don't see a need for any limit at all. As long as it has functional pedals on it, it's a bicycle. .

I do agree with the first part.

No limits are needed. you can have 100kW power and 250km/h top speed. That's called a motor cycle and you must have insurance, drivers licence and so on. I also don't want to have those on bike lanes and I do not want to have drunk people trieing to drive home on those and I don't wnat them in public transport. That's for BIKES.

Mounting pedals does not transform a motorcycle to a bike imho.

You can buy and drive those legalay, but of course you are not allowed to drive them as a electric assisted bike:

eROCKIT (3,1kWh, 9000W, 80km/h)

this also isn't a electric bike:

GraceOne (48V, 12Ah, 1300W, 45km/h)

Pedals do not turn a vehicle with 1300W motor power or even 9000W motor power into a bike. The 100-300W that you can pedal will not make any significant difference to the performance of the vehicle, so it isn't a bike.

So everything is already possible and available, you just have to give up bicycle privileges if you want much more than bicycle power and speed.

 

[Miles]

Welcome Cephalotus!

So everything is already possible and available, you just have to give up bicycle privileges if you want much more than bicycle power and speed.

You would be against the changes proposed by ETRA?

 

[Cephalotus]

Welcome Cephalotus!

So everything is already possible and available, you just have to give up bicycle privileges if you want much more than bicycle power and speed.

You would be against the changes proposed by ETRA?

The 250W max. only exist on paper, because there is no legal definition of continous power. BionX consumes up to 1000W, Bosch motors up to 800W, both are sold more than 100.000 times a year in EU...

Chinese motors get a 250W sticker an run at 36V, 14A and this seems to be ok, too.

With a "250W" Bosch drive you can bike ANY possible hill, there are youtube videos of Bosch bikes climbing ski jumps vice versa:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfSMyYFFdmQ&feature=related

We are talking about "hill" with 78%. A typical driver is not able to drive this, no matter the motor power.

We now have the privileg of the legal "s-class" with motor assistance up to 45km/h. You do not even have to wear a helmet on those. Imho the perfect commuters elctric bike if you are able to give some bike privileges.
With new laws for pedelecs it is most likely that this legal hole will be closed.

Do you really want people to built their own electric bikes with 30 year old chepa frames and 2000W peak motors in the front fork, batteries that give 70-80A peak power on lousy mounted cables and driving around you without any insurance?

Of course that's just me. I'm one of those that moded a KU63 controller from 36V 14A max. to 36V 12A max and I'm think about reducing this to 10A max. For me this is plenty of assistance. For others 36V and 14A seem to be legal (those are sold in the x-thousands at discounter stores) which is quite ok for 6-12% hills, depending on how much you can pedal on your own. If you often have to climb very steep hills a mid motor will assist you perfectly.

So for me it is ok as it is. I would prefer a 20mph/32km/h limit instead of 25km/h, but I can live happily with the current situation. Any change will most likely make it worse. For example:
cancellling the 45 km/h class, requirement for helmets, cancelling the tolerances, definition of "pedaling" and definition of "assistance rates", certified bike components. etc... This has the potential to kill all DIY pedelec plans overnight, including all DIY pedelecs already built.

I assume that the situation is different in Australia or the USA with much more open space and a different bike "culture"(?) within the cities. In Germany (and I assume this is similar to other EU countries) the average bike speed (not counting stops) in the city is only 12-15km/h. I already tried a "Pedelec" with a fast Cute 85 (328rpm @ 36V in 28" wheels) that assisted up to 42km/h (where my gears end) and this is not a sensible speed in the city center. You just wear of your brakes 10 times faster...

With a 29km/h Pedelec (25km/h + tolerance) you are often faster than the cars if you use the bike lanes.

best regards

 

[Miles]

We now have the privileg of the legal "s-class" with motor assistance up to 45km/h. You do not even have to wear a helmet on those. Imho the perfect commuters elctric bike if you are able to give some bike privileges.
With new laws for pedelecs it is most likely that this legal hole will be closed.

That seems to be something specific to Germany (& Switzerland)? Very unlikely to be adopted generally - as you say....

The step up from a power-assisted cycle, at present, is a Low Powered Moped: 1kW max, 25kph max, pedals!, helmet!, insurance & registration etc. Type Approval (SVA for us).

I'm not terribly interested in what is, or is not, a bicycle. I do want a coherently scaled regulation system.

 

[SamTexas]

The step up from a power-assisted cycle, at present, is a Low Powered Moped: 1kW max, 25kph max, pedals!, helmet!, insurance & registration etc. Type Approval (SVA for us).

Is that a typo? 25kph or 25mph? 250W is generally enough to reach 25kph. Why would anyone bother with registration, insurance and helmet to achieve the same speed?

 

[ddk]

-having experience with a 250W pedelec in my hilly lol-cation (where 4-5% grades are the easiest and most often encountered climbs) The system has no problems self-powering up a 5% grade while I'm pretending to pedal. Above a 5% grade you have to add *real* pedal power.
Of course, it does this at very slow speeds (4mph-10% to 7mph-4%) but since it's a tricycle speed causes no 'stability' problems, even at 0mph/kph.
With a bicycle there's stability problems at or below 4mph. I wouldn't have one where I live as it wouldn't be useful as transportation as I'm the extreme opposite of Lance Armdrug.
My 350-450W bikes have no problems tackling these same hills.
... and my current 350w/20A motor/controller (750W) powers up a 5% grade at 18mph, the 10% grade at 10mph. A 10% grade is about it's limit before the motor lugs excessively.
-my trike's brakes are just adequate for stopping on a downhill grade of 15% from 25-35mph. The smell of burning rubber permeates the air after just one stop of this magnitude. There are lots of 15% grades in my lol-cal
On the flat the trike's brakes can perform a panic stop within 20-30 feet from 15-20mph (tested daily, unfortunately) These same brakes will panic stop the trike within 5-10 feet from 10mph. It's a trike so you can't perform a skid stop.
The trike has three 'standard' bicycle brakes including:
-160mm disc (rear axle)
-4.5" band (rear axle)
-front rim brake with upgraded pads
The trike just achieves 20mph on a 0% grade with electric-only and is geared for 20 mph at 80rpm cadence in it's highest gear.
Because of the trike's configuration all the weight is on the rear wheels even under braking conditions, so the rear axle requires more braking force than the front wheel to maintain a stable stop.
My conclusion is this trike provides adequate transportation in my location and and still falls under the law's local limits for an electric bicycle
It's also my conclusion that traveling over 15mph on my tricycle is far more dangerous when 'sharing' the road in the brain-dead usa (as if large vehicles in the usa actually 'share' the roads)
And so I maintain that standard bicycle components with electric assist should be limited to 20mph (electric only) and a 1000w limit appears sensible to me. For any location in my experience.

A weight limit seems somewhat silly, as the weight of a bicycle under power is determined mainly by the operator
(exceptions include amberwoof) (and is why I required an extra rear brake)
-oh and reduced speed limits since, as others have noted, speed limits sets the lowest speed observed on any particular road in the usa.
Also in the usa, if you commit manslaughter with a car/truck it's highly likely you will get a firm (yet not particularly painful) slap on the wrist. And bicycles and pedestrians seem to be a favorite target.
ymmv

 

[Miles]

The step up from a power-assisted cycle, at present, is a Low Powered Moped: 1kW max, 25kph max, pedals!, helmet!, insurance & registration etc. Type Approval (SVA for us).

Is that a typo? 25kph or 25mph? 250W is generally enough to reach 25kph. Why would anyone bother with registration, insurance and helmet to achieve the same speed?

No, it's not a typo.

To achieve 25 kph under what conditions?

 

[liveforphysics]

I look at it from a harm reduction point of view.


No amount of ebike laws or lack of laws have much effect on the transportation needs of a person. For example, they will still arrive at work each morning somehow, go home at the end of the day, often go a grocery or diner/cafe etc.

If you want to see them make these in cars/SUVs etc, make the alternatives as unappealing as possible, (eg: 250w/25mph or whatever)

If you want to see less cars/SUV's/trucks serving these daily regular transportation needs, offer alternatives that are more appealing. If you offer alternatives that are less appealing, enjoy seeing more cars/SUVs/trucks carrying around single passenger payloads.

Currently I've seen about 20 ebikes in the wild (excluding ES member meets etc) over the last 4-5years. In the same time I've seen perhaps, I dunno, a perhaps million cars/trucks/SUVs?

If you're happy with that type of ratio, keep ebikes as restricted and unappealing of transportation as possible.

 

[SamTexas]

Sounds like a fair argument in theory. Unfortunately it does not work in real life.

So an ebike is less (a lot less) harmful than a car/suv as far as the environment is concerned. By the same logic, a motorcycle is less harmful than a car/suv. And there is no restriction on motorcycles as far as power or speed is concerned. So why are we still seeing 100 cars/suvs for every motorcycle? (Or whatever the actual ratio is.) Because it has nothing to do with power or speed. And this has nothing to do with the USA, per se.

The ugly truth is that as personal income increases, people spend more, whether it's needed or not. Human beings are vain.

 

[SamTexas]

To achieve 25 kph under what conditions?

On flat or on a slightly up incline. Definitely not on a 10% grade incline. So is that why they have this 1Kw, 25kph category? For heavily loaded bicycles?

 

[Miles]

To achieve 25 kph under what conditions?

On flat or on a slightly up incline. Definitely not on a 10% grade incline. So is that why they have this 1Kw, 25kph category? For heavily loaded bicycles?

It would make some sense, if it wasn't for the other stipulations. That's why I said:

I'm not terribly interested in what is, or is not, a bicycle. I do want a coherently scaled regulation system.

 

[Farfle]

IMHO, 3kw geared to to about 30mph seems to be the sweet spot, not enough power that standard disk brakes and tires can't handle, but enough that you can get around quick.

 

[Sunder]

If all us hobbyists can't decide even vaguely on limits between ourselves, no wonder that politicians who have never seen an electric bike just set the limits low to err on the side of caution.

In my opinion, a vehicle that is treated like a bike (allowed to ride on shared paths, no licence, no insurance, etc) should resemble a bike in most instances - not go significantly faster, not weigh significantly more. As such, I think no power limit, no speed limit is realistic, but assistance stops at say, 25-35 km/h. Unladen weight and dimensions should also be limited to prevent scooters with non functional pedals being introduced.

Any bike which assists past 25-35km/h should have an option of being registered as a custom vehicle (in this case a motorcycle) and is only permitted where a motorcycle is permitted (I.e. no bike or shared paths) and must have insurance, rego and license,

That's how I'd do it at least.

 

[adrian_sm]

Thanks for that summary Cephalotus.

2.) s-Pedelecs 20km/h limit without pedalling, 45km/h motor support limit, 500W continuous power limit

those are "fast bikes" and look like Pedelecs but they need to have certain parts like a mirror, special tires and so on. You have to mount a number plate and you loose your bike status. You also need insurance and you can't built those on your own. You can't even change brakes, forks or similar things...
You need a drivers licence.

Have you got a link to the official requirements for s-Pedelecs? I am interested to read the actual wording.

 

[Cephalotus]

Have you got a link to the official requirements for s-Pedelecs? I am interested to read the actual wording.

such a document does not exist.

If you understand German this would be a start:

http://www.pedelecforum.de/wiki/doku.php?id=rechtliches:start (2.3. ff)

in English I recommend this one, but it has some errors (a helmet is not required if the motor speed limit (not pedal assist limit) is below 20km/h):

http://www.udv.de/uploads/tx_udvpublications/Web__Nr30_UDVkomp_Pedelec_Kopie.pdf

this document is about safity on fast electric bikes, so would make an interesting reading also for others. But most likely you will not like what they suggest :-(

Here is some short information, see part 8, 9 and 21:

http://service.specialized.com/collateral/ownersguide/new/assets/pdf/OM0400_revA_EN_OPT.pdf

 

[adrian_sm]

I am a bit confused. Where did the term or definition of a s-Pedelec come from, if there is no accepted definition for people to design for/adhere to/test against?

Thanks for the links. The second safety one was interesting.
They actually crashed various electric bikes with test dummies into car and pedestrians.

Check out the youtube videos.
Into pedestrian at 25kph
[youtube]JsY1f-msh_w[/youtube]

Side on into a parked car at 45kph
[youtube]x0Tr-2u2bZw[/youtube]
[youtube]X77NFYmavZI[/youtube]

Failed overtaking crash 45kph vs 25kph:
[youtube]hdD5li71I8Y[/youtube]

And here is a random crash test video I saw a link to that has cars crashing into bikes with kid seats and trailers. Sobering stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ78c6MHAGk&feature=player_detailpage#t=95s

 

[adrian_sm]

Digging a bit further the 45kph s-Pedelec seem to fall under a general two-wheeled moped type L1e category as per http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2002:124:0001:0044:ENDF

To get this type approval means the whole bike would typically need to be tested, but there appear to be provision for each element of the bike to be type approved, and then the approval body must accept those as being approved and not retest. So there may be some scope for kit type builds to be able to be approved if you can get the rest of the bike approved.

- Adrian

 

[ProDigit]

in my personal opinion, get rid of the pedals, as they're only a danger for sharp cornering,
and limit speed to 35MPH. I feel lots more safe driving in the city at 35MPH, than at 27MPH, when every car is passing me by.
At 30MPH, when you fall, you can get some ugly bruises, burns, and roadrash, but nothing lethal (normally; that is, if you don't hit an oncoming 12 tonner at 110MPH).
After 35MPH it gets a little dangerous, mainly because at 30MPH is a predefined marker for increased chance on dying from an accident.
When you're driving 35MPH, and see a dog, or child or car going in front of you, and you're about to hit it, you can still break, so that at the impact your speed might be 5-10MPH lower already! Hitting someone full on at 30MPH could be lethal, but the majority of the times, you can prevent a situation from happening by either slowing down, or evading, to minimize impact.

A bike needs to feel stable too!, soft shocks and spring system, not a stiff one, and good brakes!
Regenerative breaking is a great idea, but for hard breaking a regular breaking mechanism is still necessary!

If you ask me, there are sports bike men who can reach and maintain 30MPH speeds, and few who can maintain 35MPH speeds for longer than a minute.

IMHO, limit a bike motor to 750W (increasing power, increases weight, increasing weight increases braking distance),and to 199LBS max (battery included).
That way manufacturers won't need to wrestle to make affordable, efficient, and practical bikes.
When they create little honda CBR bikes, vespa's, or dirt bikes at 100LBS, a 500W motor could even be sufficient in 90% of the cases!

With many limitations set to 200W, is ridiculous. It's just ensuring you won't pass the speed limit. However it's very easy to keep the speed limit with a 500 or 750W motor. People tend to forget, that most cars can easily go 160MPH, but not many are actually driving at that speed!
Same with bikes, making it go 35MPH, does not require a person to drive at that speed.
One could make the throttle a little stiffer after 20MPH, and even more stiff, at 30MPH+

A 700W motor is only better able to go uphill,and to get parked in an uphill garage; or to get better acceleration than a 500W one, and can be handy when having a mini goldwing-like bike (eg: Like Xtreme's XB-700Li; that bike is larger, and has more storage space than the 502; so might need a bit of a bigger motor.

The only problem with bumping up the speed, is that there will be those that have DUI's, and can't drive a car, and will drive these bikes drunk!
Usually it's these kinds of people that spoil it for all others...

 

[chopper_elec]

How big of a difference would it be between a 250w, 500w and 750w hub motor in 48v trim in overall feel?

For me I have ridden a 250w 24v scooter/ebike in the past (one of those that look like a scooter but have pedals) and I found it quite gutless up the hills and the pedal system was so badly single geared that I couldn't even get to 10km an hour by pedalling.

 

[liveforphysics]

And here is a random crash test video I saw a link to that has cars crashing into bikes with kid seats and trailers. Sobering stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ78c6MHAGk&feature=player_detailpage#t=95s

Pffft... Their heads didn't even break the windshields (I've broken two windshields with my head with no helmet and just suffered nothing more than a lump and bruise, neither of which even bothered me). I would have volunteered to be a living test dummy for any of those tests, looked like a good time more than something to fear. I don't think I've ever had a dirtbiking trip that didn't involve at least 3-4 crashes much much worse than those.