If you could reset the speed/power limit what would it be?

[gensem]

Those tests makes me laugh.

The dummy does have no muscles to hold him to the bicycle, also his bicycle is made of some sort of metal thats very weak and tear apart when he hits the car.
In a regular crash you would probably fly over the car and your bicycle would still be in one piece.

Btw where is the test that a car runs over the dummy at any given speed?

 

[adrian_sm]

I've broken two windshields with my head with no helmet and just suffered nothing more than a lump and bruise, neither of which even bothered me

Why doesn't that surprise me. :lol:

Oh, and congratulations on the recent win on the track. Awesome effort.

 

[Chalo]

Funny enough, i tried, called the local DMV, asked about it, was transfered to 10 different departments to reapeat myself over the course of a few hours.. bottom line....

" If it has a VIN, you can register it as a scooter, if it does not have a VIN.. it's a bicycle and we dont want to hear about it " .

How do the all-custom Harley chopper guys do it where you live? Many of those bikes have aftermarket engines and frames that were made by the owner. No VINs there.

Chalo

 

[Chalo]

Maybe something like this.
20mph speed limit = regular bicycle
35mph speed limit = not allowed to use bikepaths at that speed but still a bicycle.
Over 35-40mph and it should be treated as a moped.

In most US states, mopeds are limited to no more than 30mph, or they have to be registered as motorcycles. So an e-bike that will exceed 20mph but not 30mph is a moped. An e-bike faster than that is a motorcycle.

Chalo

 

[chopper_elec]

Funny enough, i tried, called the local DMV, asked about it, was transfered to 10 different departments to reapeat myself over the course of a few hours.. bottom line....

" If it has a VIN, you can register it as a scooter, if it does not have a VIN.. it's a bicycle and we dont want to hear about it " .

How do the all-custom Harley chopper guys do it where you live? Many of those bikes have aftermarket engines and frames that were made by the owner. No VINs there.

Chalo

I'd be quite confident to obtain a VIN number those custom bikes would have to get each design engineered. I am sure they could engineer their own vehicles to a certain specification. If something happened legally and the frame was to crack/break they would be up for millions in liability.

 

[Chalo]

I look at it from a harm reduction point of view.

No amount of ebike laws or lack of laws have much effect on the transportation needs of a person. For example, they will still arrive at work each morning somehow, go home at the end of the day, often go a grocery or diner/cafe etc.

If you want to see them make these in cars/SUVs etc, make the alternatives as unappealing as possible, (eg: 250w/25mph or whatever)

If you want to see less cars/SUV's/trucks serving these daily regular transportation needs, offer alternatives that are more appealing. If you offer alternatives that are less appealing, enjoy seeing more cars/SUVs/trucks carrying around single passenger payloads.

Yours is sound reasoning for having low cost/no cost registration for e-motorcycles, or lower/no insurance requirements, or publicly subsidized charging stations for them.

It's not a basis for designating something to be a bicycle when it isn't one.

Chalo

 

[chopper_elec]

I guess the biggest question here is, if ebikes are being designed for short distances (they say most rides are 10-15km away), with limited motor power you are usually gauranteed that you will make it to your destination and back (or at least one way, to which you could charge the batteries when your there).

The idea behind charging stations would be good, if they were close by to the location you were riding to. If not you might as well walk or catch a train/tram home.

Considering you'd have to be at the destination for at least 1 hour, it would be quicker to take other measures to get to your location even in busier times.

 

[Chalo]

in my personal opinion, get rid of the pedals, as they're only a danger for sharp cornering,

No pedals, not a bicycle. That should be easy for anyone to understand.

There are already statutory categories for mopeds and motorcycles, with their own responsibilities attached. If it has two wheels, a motor, and no pedals, it's either one of the above or it's a Segway. Segways have their own separate legal category in most places.

The basic argument I see popping up over and over here is that an electric motorcycle owner shouldn't have to fulfill the responsibilities of motorcycle ownership, just because his motorcycle is electric. I think that's a valid argument to make, whatever its merits. But that's the proposal y'all are making. Own it.

Conflating motorcycles and bicycles in order to accomplish that objective is not the right way to go about it. Don't use bicyclists as a righteous Trojan horse for legalizing your unregistered machines. Cyclists have it hard enough, and they've done nothing to earn the trouble that would bring down upon them and their hard-won rights to the road.

If your machine needs a plate to be legal, get a plate (or else keep your head down and stay quiet). If you think e-motorcyclists deserve special privileges, make your case to your state legislators. Get it passed fair and square, like Segway did. Don't lay a turd in the bicyclists' pool.

Chalo

 

[Jeremy Harris]

If we were designing vehicle categories from scratch, with no inherited mish-mash of poorly thought through legislation, then I believe the sensible thing to do would be to scale it on the basis of potential to cause harm. This is pretty much matched to the kinetic energy of the vehicle, proportional to the product of mass and the speed squared (1/2 mV² for the purists).

Vehicles of light weight and low speed, irrespective of the power of their motors, should be free from regulation, just as bicycles are, as they have little potential for causing death, injury or material damage. As weight and/or speed increases then regulation should increase, both to ensure that safety systems on the vehicle (brakes, steering, tyres etc) are up to the job, but also to ensure that the driver/rider has the skills needed to handle the vehicle safely and that the vehicle carries adequate insurance to compensate those who might suffer death, injury or material damage from it in the event of an accident.

The debate about motor power is, I believe, a red herring, as the power of the motor doesn't have a direct bearing on the magnitude of potential harm a vehicle might cause; at best it's an indirect measure of speed potential. I'd be quite happy to have a speed and weight scaled regulatory system, as long as it was applied sensibly.

Unfortunately things are fouled up by pre-existing legislation in many countries around the world, plus some frankly barking mad bits of new electric bike legislation that have been dreamt up without regard to the true balance of risk. Just to muddy things further, we should remember that our aims, to encourage the use of ebikes, aren't shared by politicians and governments in the main. They will often be more focussed on maintaining tax revenue, so won't want to see tax-paying vehicles swapped for non-tax-paying ebikes...................

 

[Miles]

Totally agree, Jeremy.

 

[Miles]

Segways have their own separate legal category in most places.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

Segways have their own separate legal category in most places.

Yep, wholly illegal here, can't be used anywhere except on private land with no public right of way.

 

[Chalo]

Segways have their own separate legal category in most places.

Yep, wholly illegal here, can't be used anywhere except on private land with no public right of way.

Where I live, we have Segway tourism. The tour groups sometimes cruise through my neighborhood.

Chalo

 

[liveforphysics]

I would ask yourselves, what would you rather see in your city. This:

Or this:

 

[Arlo1]

I would ask yourselves, what would you rather see in your city. This:

Or this:

Yeh whats going to kill more people at 100 mph? 200 mph? 50 mph? Or society is BIGTIME ass backwards of where we need to be and it starts with changing things like this!

 

[Ypedal]

Funny enough, i tried, called the local DMV, asked about it, was transfered to 10 different departments to reapeat myself over the course of a few hours.. bottom line....

" If it has a VIN, you can register it as a scooter, if it does not have a VIN.. it's a bicycle and we dont want to hear about it " .

How do the all-custom Harley chopper guys do it where you live? Many of those bikes have aftermarket engines and frames that were made by the owner. No VINs there.

Chalo

I'm pretty sure most of them chop off a VIN from a registerd anything, weld it on their own creation and pretend it's what it " was " ... not saying it's the right thing to do.. but i know for a fact it happens... god only knows what would happen in a court of law if someone died from one of these frankensteins.. Most of these guys dont have the inclination/ funds / know how , to deal with the red tape required to register a home made rig out here.

 

[el_walto]

20mph is OK. I'd like to see 2000W instead of 500Watt limit though. Even at 2000Watts i can't make it up all the hills in town, and i don't see how 2000Watts is anymore dangerous than 500Watts.

Law here is 32km/h and 500w hub.

So my 9c hub is 500w with 50v 40amp controller, is it legal?

"Electric motor of 500 watts or less
and
bicycle-style pedals for manual propulsion."

 

[liveforphysics]

I actually think anyone that thinks any ebike of any power level, like John's 10kw utility bike that is 50-60mph capable as an example, should be outlawed or banned as a transportation method is insane. Suggest a less harmful to the town/city/environment/world alternative that provides the same function in the rate it travels, the payload it carries (he has taken his kids to school on it daily for years now), its silent, lightweight, flows right between traffic easily, and it recharges with electricity.


No, it's never going to be registered as a motorcycle, and it's never going to get insurance or some government stamp of approval or a little piece of steel with stamped numbers on the back mounted to it (because somehow a little scrap of steal of aluminum on the back makes a vehicle safer rather than just wasting more time/effort/money feeding buracracy in exchange for an end result of worse aerodynamics and a tracking number).


When I'm in China, what do I see different from the USA for human transport? In the USA I see transportation needs being satisfied by about ~1% ebike/bicycle/walking, 99% cars/SUVs/trucks/bus etc. In China, I see perhaps 95% scooters/bicycles, the majority being electric powered, then perhaps 5% cars/bus etc. Why is this? Because you can buy a 2,500w ebike/scooter thing that suits your personal transportation needs effectively for $500 from a street-corner dealer and just go ride it away with no buracracy BS. When your batteries are junk (they mainly use lead), there are street-corner places that have your batts charged up and in stock and are skilled at swapping them out for new ones and taking your old ones to recycle for about $20 and they are done with the swap in 15mins and you're on your way.

That's called a real working car alternative transportation system. The more rules you make, the more you screw up a real working alternative transportation system working.

 

[Chalo]

No, it's never going to be registered as a motorcycle, and it's never going to get insurance or some government stamp of approval or a little piece of steel with stamped numbers on the back mounted to it (because somehow a little scrap of steal of aluminum on the back makes a vehicle safer rather than just wasting more time/effort/money feeding buracracy in exchange for an end result of worse aerodynamics and a tracking number).

Compare the conduct of unplated car drivers with legally compliant ones. There is a public safety concern.

Anyway, I think the idea that the authorities won't let you pay them a fee to register your bike is a fallacy. I see plated full custom Hawgs every day.

Here's a snippet of the thing that came up first when I googled "apply for a VIN". The form has a checkbox for "specially constructed motor vehicle".

 

[Arlo1]

No, it's never going to be registered as a motorcycle, and it's never going to get insurance or some government stamp of approval or a little piece of steel with stamped numbers on the back mounted to it (because somehow a little scrap of steal of aluminum on the back makes a vehicle safer rather than just wasting more time/effort/money feeding buracracy in exchange for an end result of worse aerodynamics and a tracking number).

Compare the conduct of unplated car drivers with legally compliant ones. There is a public safety concern.

Anyway, I think the idea that the authorities won't let you pay them a fee to register your bike is a fallacy. I see plated full custom Hawgs every day.

Here's a snippet of the thing that came up first when I googled "apply for a VIN". The form has a checkbox for "specially constructed motor vehicle".

You have been brain washed my friend. All that process does is cost money those who want to be dangerous to others will still be just as bad but when you obey all the GOV rules you just pay more money. MONEY is all it comes down to! NOTHING ELSE!

 

[Chalo]

No, it's never going to be registered as a motorcycle, and it's never going to get insurance or some government stamp of approval or a little piece of steel with stamped numbers on the back mounted to it (because somehow a little scrap of steal of aluminum on the back makes a vehicle safer rather than just wasting more time/effort/money feeding buracracy in exchange for an end result of worse aerodynamics and a tracking number).

Compare the conduct of unplated car drivers with legally compliant ones. There is a public safety concern.

Anyway, I think the idea that the authorities won't let you pay them a fee to register your bike is a fallacy. I see plated full custom Hawgs every day.

Here's a snippet of the thing that came up first when I googled "apply for a VIN". The form has a checkbox for "specially constructed motor vehicle".

You have been brain washed my friend. All that process does is cost money those who want to be dangerous to others will still be just as bad but when you obey all the GOV rules you just pay more money. MONEY is all it comes down to! NOTHING ELSE!

Sure it costs money, but it's a matter of fairness. Street systems cost money; if ordinary motorcyclists have to pay, why shouldn't e-motorcyclists? If your argument is that no motorcyclist should have to register or be licensed, at least that's internally consistent.

Yes, I think that the fee rates and regulatory structure should encourage the use of smaller, safer, more efficient vehicles. But that includes smaller, safer, more efficient bikes. Therefore, e-mopeds are still mopeds, and e-motorcycles are still motorcycles.

Chalo

 

[Arlo1]

At the moment the gov is taking a lot of money from fuel to cover street costs. They also take big taxes on housing, They also tax income. We shoud be allowed something tax free! If you look at Canada we pay over 1/3 of of our gas to tax! Imagine how much that is for what is a population of ~ 33,000,000 which at least 20,000,000 drive and burn about 1000-2000 a year in gas! Then look at the US who is 10x the population!!!! This is a example of how over priced our lives have become!

 

[Drunkskunk]

Laws and regulations are for Idiots. Unfortunatly, we have a surplus of idiots, so we need laws and regulations to deter idiots from being them selves, and give opportunities for redress when they do break the law or injure someone while being idiots.

I support laws that define a limit as to when an Ebike is not a Bicycle. Bicycles can be rode just about anywhere, and without some regulation, Some 13 year old idiot will try riding an 400lbs ebike at 60mph down a sidewalk filled with todlers and small children, because he can.

20mph/750W nominal seems like a place to start. Thats still bicycle teritory. Sensable people can promptly ignore it. Idiots will get them selves caught violating it, and people in between can use it for a guid line to whats acceptable when they have enough sense to know they are sometimes idiots.

 

[liveforphysics]

Some 13 year old idiot will try riding an 400lbs ebike at 60mph down a sidewalk filled with todlers and small children, because he can.

Of all the vehicle rampages somebody wants to go on, I can hardly think of a less dangerous powered platform for someone to choose.

 

[Arlo1]

Some 13 year old idiot will try riding an 400lbs ebike at 60mph down a sidewalk filled with todlers and small children, because he can.

Of all the vehicle rampages somebody wants to go on, I can hardly think of a less dangerous powered platform for someone to choose.

And not to mention the public taking care of the punk!!! If you take the law away then the 13 yr old punk will have to fear the parents of the todlers! Right now we have a law protecting that 13 year old from us laying an ass wooping he would never forget making it more likely now for him to do it than if there was less laws!