INFINEON CONTROLLERS FOR DUMMIES

I am coming back to the this blue wire and the speed logic signal.

I have soldered the sensorless addon I got from Keywin on my 48V Infineon controller. I do not know how exactly how this module works but it does not require the wheel to turn in order to start as for my sensorless Crystalyte controller so I guess that pulses are sent to the motor to detect the position of the poles.

I have hooked up this controller with the appropriate connector and mod described in this forum to my CA-DP and the speed is not zero even if the wheel does not turn. Disconnecting the 3 phases does not change anything. The scope shows pulses as soon as the controller is turned on.

Any suggestions/mods to use the controller for speedometer as I do not want to use and external system ?
 
Fredo said:
I am coming back to the this blue wire and the speed logic signal.

I have soldered the sensorless addon I got from Keywin on my 48V Infineon controller. I do not know how exactly how this module works but it does not require the wheel to turn in order to start as for my sensorless Crystalyte controller so I guess that pulses are sent to the motor to detect the position of the poles.

I have hooked up this controller with the appropriate connector and mod described in this forum to my CA-DP and the speed is not zero even if the wheel does not turn. Disconnecting the 3 phases does not change anything. The scope shows pulses as soon as the controller is turned on.

Any suggestions/mods to use the controller for speedometer as I do not want to use and external system ?
hi
we are haveing problems with the speed output at the moment it does not do what keywin said it would do somthing got lost in traslation, for now speed detection may need to be external sorry.
i am going to have a word with justin and find out if a hall signell can be taped directly.
how many fets are on your board?
the sensorless module takes the Back EMF from the phase wires and turns them into the same sort of thing as the hall signals sent from a motor there can be problems at throttle over 75%,I have seen this with puma and bafang but have not tried it on a direct drive motor yet. both observations were under no load conditions, it did not matter what voltage you used it was always 75% throttle or there abouts.

Geoff
 
Hi Geoff

how many fets are on your board?

I have the 12 FET version and use my 48V battery.

the sensorless module takes the Back EMF from the phase wires and turns them into the same sort of thing as the hall signals sent from a motor there can be problems at throttle over 75%,I have seen this with puma and bafang but have not tried it on a direct drive motor yet. both observations were under no load conditions, it did not matter what voltage you used it was always 75% throttle or there abouts.

In my case the throttle is stuck at 0% when I observe the pulse train on the output this is why I was wondering if the addon module does not send on purpose those pulses to know the position on the motor when no back EMF is generated by the rotation.

If I connect my CA with the speed wire, I cannot ride my bike at a real speed higher than few km/h as the speed displayed by CA is over 99km/h and then CA trigger speed limitation.

Fredo
 
for now disable all speed limmit functions or remove the speed wire from the board, I am working on it.
Geoff
 
With respect to the speed sensor problem, I've been down this road before and posted about it here:

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8613

If you can skip through the interjections, you'll see where I went - oddly, I can't find the solution I posted ANYWHERE, though I see where I discuss "the ultimate" solution for guaranteeing a rock-solid speed signal you can take to the bank. I'll have to see what I did with the pictures associated with that and re-post, I guess. I'm hoping I didn't imagine actually posting about it, as I clearly remember taking some pictures, drawing schematics, and writing about it...

The synopsis of the whole thing is this, though... The blue wire CAN be used, somewhat, for speed - what's happening is that the pulse you get out of it is, if I recall, six times what it should be. If you have 23 pole motor, you're going to see 138 pulses per wheel rotation. The CA can't divide by a number like that...

What I tried first was to wire up a single-chip "divide by 6" circuit and placed it (wrapped in shrink-wrap) inline with the signal. That seemed to produce a signal that was useable. I still can't find my original post, but the picture of the thing, prior to shrink-wrap, is still sitting on my server...

divider.jpg


It's almost like the original signal on the blue wire is firmware driven - one pulse per step in the commutation process. I can't imagine how you can get exactly SIX times too many pulses an other way. And that begs the question of how representative that signal is of what's REALLY happening.

I've never been a fan of using single hall signals for speed, and (in actuality) pulled this little divider circuit OUT of the controller I tested it in, and replaced it with a sexier external solution that only produces a pulse if the wheel moves through a complete commutation cycle (all six phases). I found it necessary to do this when I discovered that a single hall signal will "judder" when the wheel stalls or is under great load. The difference this made was quite marked, but I've since discovered that this phenomenon varies with the hall sensors used in the wheel.

I've really gotta get out there and compile the empircal data I've gathered on this whole speed thing and make a thread out of it. The other big thing a lot of folks don't realize is that, if you carefully measure the circumference of your wheel and plug that straight into the speed equation (or your Cycle Analyst), you're going to get an exaggerated speed/distance out of the thing that can be as much as 5 or 6% (depending on your tires and weight). The EFFECTIVE circumference of the wheel for this purpose is closer to the line you'd get if you drew a circle whose radius took into consideration the fact that your tire is actually somewhat compressed with you sitting on the bike. The fact that the tire tread "creeps" somewhat as you roll along needs to be considered, too, and this will vary with tread pattern and riding surface. I did a lot of head scratching over this, comparing my device (which I call the "Anal Cyclist") with a real CA (just to be sure I wasn't buggering up in my own firmware - I was happy that my device agrees EXACTLY with the CA) and my GPS. Owing to the fact that the GPS can introduce some factors of its own (satellite handoffs that might cause you to "jump" a few metres here and there), I went and tried my test route in the car. My car's odometer and the GPS agreed almost exactly. But I still wanted a better test, so checked myself out against some real "mile markers". My results were consistent! My rear wheel, with a Michelin Pilot "Urban" tire on it, measures 2071mm around. To get the correct speed/distance (as real-world and other comparative measures indicate), I have to tell my CA that my wheel is actually 1977mm around!

Yes, "Anal Cyclist", indeed :)

I'll see if I can scare up a wiring diagram for that divider thingy if anyone's interested. I believed I used a 74LS92 and a single .1uf cap (standard decoupling practice for TTL devices). The thing installs INSIDE the controller.

Edit: Upon posting this, I realize that you SHOULD be able to get a meaningful reading with a CA if you're using a Crystalyte motor. The 400 series has only 8 poles and the 5x series have 12. If you plug 48 or 72, respectively, into the "Number of Poles" on the CA - you SHOULD get a number that's somewhat close to the truth. I believe the CA can divide by 99 - which wasn't enough for a Golden or 9-Continent, which have 23 poles and would thus require division by 138.

I'd be very interested to know if the unbuffered "blue wire" signal produces the correct result as-is this way.
 
phil, don't you just hate it when you lose track of where you read or were talking about something?

your pulse counter was in the 'transistor modifications' thread, as i recall.

i had hoped your data logger would turn up. that put out a nice stream of data on the pack.

anybody ever hear from knuckles? hope he is well but just bummed about this place. he made this a great place to read, and is missed.
 
philf you did post about the inline devider that I remember you said you were going to come up with a better way but I never found the posting of it. I thought you were still working on it, I'm glad you have finnished it.

Its time we got the DP CA connection points sorted out once and for all.

we have the basic connections sorted out I did them right at the start,the ebrake or throttle limiting wire I got compleatly wrong I was following old information from the cycle analyst web site on retro fitting this wire to a X'tlyte,after methods complained and said basicly I did not know what I was talking about I contacted justin and he explained that what I had worked out used to work but that there was a better way the way methods was using, that had 5 of the 6 wires sorted out all we were waiting was a reliable speed signal as the one on the infineon is of no use now we have one, all we need is for you to post you designs Philf.

Geoff
 
I am not as picky as Philf :D
Philf is a mad scientist that is working on secret projects :p

For the average Joe, here is how you hook up the CA to an Infineon with a high pole count motor:

I have a 23 pole 9 continent motor
I tie the CA into one hall pin.

As noted, the CA only goes up to a 14 pole motor
To correct for this, you must scale the wheel diameter by a factor of 14/23

Set Polls to 14
Measure your wheel diameter
Scale by 14/23 and enter number

Done deal. :D

Speed and distance are dead on.
(given variations in tire pressure etc.)

This was the method suggested to me by Zev from ebikes.ca
Thanks Zev

-methods
 
methods said:
I am not as picky as Philf :D
Philf is a mad scientist that is working on secret projects :p

For the average Joe, here is how you hook up the CA to an Infineon with a high pole count motor:

I have a 23 pole 9 continent motor
I tie the CA into one hall pin.

As noted, the CA only goes up to a 14 pole motor
To correct for this, you must scale the wheel diameter by a factor of 14/23

Set Polls to 14
Measure your wheel diameter
Scale by 14/23 and enter number

Done deal. :D

Speed and distance are dead on.
(given variations in tire pressure etc.)

This was the method suggested to me by Zev from ebikes.ca
Thanks Zev

-methods
thats all 6 then I had a fealing that we would be able to tap a hall line, I sent an email to ebikes.ca but have had no reply back yet looks like the reply will be the same as you have just put.
I use both a ver 2 and ver 2.1 beta both with geared motors as well, the idea of getting the speed right by fooling the CA as to the true wheel size is an idea I did know not sure if i posted it or not, we are all coming up with the same answers to the same questions independently as they are obvious if you think about it for a moment.

I will post a list of the connection points soon when I have some free time with pictures.

Geoff
 
All right. I have divided by 6 the number I have for my wheel diameter and now the speed is correct on CA. I have kept the number of poles to 8 (Xtlyte 408).
However, only part of my problem is solved. I re-iterate that with my sensoreless addon module, the infineon controller output pulses even when the wheel does not rotate and I keep reading 1.78kph or so on CA at dead stop.
Fredo
 
http://www.ebikes.ca

There is a small magnetic switch that you can buy, same as what is shipped with the other CA models
There is no polarity to this switch
Wire one wire to the CA ground
Wire the other wire to the Speed input

Set the number of poles to 1
Set the wheel diameter to the actual size

Mount the switch as close to the spokes as you can
attach additional rare earth magnets to the spoke mount magnet included with the switch

This is an absolute and direct way to measure your wheel speed regardless of motor, wheel, whatever.

There will be a little less resolution at very slow speeds but for normal riding you will be happy with the results.

-methods
 
Fredo said:
All right. I have divided by 6 the number I have for my wheel diameter and now the speed is correct on CA. I have kept the number of poles to 8 (Xtlyte 408).
However, only part of my problem is solved. I re-iterate that with my sensoreless addon module, the infineon controller output pulses even when the wheel does not rotate and I keep reading 1.78kph or so on CA at dead stop.
Fredo

hi Fredo
having a sensorless module should cause no problem but taping into the speed signal on the infineon will cause problems for the cycle analyist you need to tap into a hall wire, the sensorless module simulates the hall signals for the board let me do some testing with a sensorless module and a 12 fet controller.
you will have to wait about a week I am in the middle of a job and must finish it first, to get you moving just disconnect the wire going to the speed monitor pad on the infineon board you will not get a speed reading but you will be able to move and get power readings.
i got a return to my email from justin at ebikes.ca over where I could connect the speed wire, as expected and methods said useing a hall tap will be alright BUT he did point out the CA voltage tolarences I want to check on what the sensorless module puts out to make sureit is within the limmits one way or another I think it is but I don't want to take the chance.

Geoff
 
Your feedback is really appreciated.

The Infineon is a great controller. I just tried the generative braking and was able to see my first Ah flowing back to the battery. When the speed wire will be fixed, I guess that for the cost vs features will be unbeatable.

Fredo
 
sorry guys i've just realised the self learn pin although will be on the xie cheng ( keywin) boards, i've been referring to an alternative brand board using same infineon chip, so it might not have made much sense.
this probably doesnt' help much but here is pat6-2 pin on alternate board no idea where it is on the xie cheng as yet, but very very useful to use the self learn function to save time connecting to unknown motor.
altbrand pinout.jpg
I've only just found some self learn controllers very recently, haven't seen any posts about them on es, but infineon chip has that function
 
I started making a little cheat sheet for printing for easier wiring.



I am guessing that cruise time is just a time delay setting before it kicks out, yes?
And what is block time?
 

Attachments

  • Infineon cheat sheet.jpg
    Infineon cheat sheet.jpg
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not sure if this posted before
http://www.infineon.com/dgdl/AP0802610_Hall_Sensor_BLDC_Control.pdf?location=Products.Microcontrollers.8-Bit.XC800_Family.XC886_888CLM_series.DOCUMENTS.AP0802610_Hall_Sensor_BLDC_Control.pdf&folderId=db3a304412b407950112b40c497b0af6&fileId=db3a304412b407950112b40c61bd0b0f

or google ap08026
techy info on xc866 hall sensor algorithmn
 
hi x3 is used for speed 3 in switch mode, in cycle mode you cycle through the speeds by closing a momentary connected to x1.

there is a 12 fet automatic self diagnosing controller but as yet keywin only a few samples, the speed limmit had to be removed as a input switch was needed to activate learning mode, the speed limmit activation switch was chosen.
I,ve got one but I tried it out on a kollmorgon with no load I think it requires some resistance to work that motor had none at all, I blew the fets and am waiting for some new ones to carry on testing.
Geoff
 
x3 is for speed 3??

that makes sense but...

the infineon.doc by solarbbq2003 has x2 for speed 3 when in switch mode. Is this wrong?
"
0: SWITCH MODE …
When “0: SWITCH MODE” is chosen as the mode of operation, the Infineon controller will default to the speed value selected for “Speed 2%”. This is the value the controller “sees” when none of contact points (SL, X1, X2, or DX3) are activated or used. This value is typically set to 100%. It is believed that values over 100% may increase speed by using a “phase advance” feature but values over 100% may not function well with higher rotor rpm (geared) motors. Of course reverse will not work with geared motors with an internal freewheel (like the Bafang PMGR).

SL …
(0: Switch Mode) When the “SL” contact point is “jumped” to ground (when SL is connected to ground) then the programmed value for “Limit Speed%” overrides the default “Speed 2%” setting. If the SL switch is opened (disconnected from ground) then the controller returns to the “Speed 2%” setting.

X1 …
(0: Switch Mode) When the “X1” contact point is “jumped” to ground then the programmed value for “Speed 1%” overrides the default “Speed 2%” setting. If the X1 switch is opened then the controller returns to the “Speed 2%” setting.

X2 …
(0: Switch Mode) When the “X2” contact point is “jumped” to ground then the programmed value for “Speed 3%” overrides the default “Speed 2%” setting. If the X2 switch is opened then the controller returns to the “Speed 2%” setting.
 
hi
I'm sorry I got that one wrong I do it so automaticaly that when in cycle mode use X3 to get speed 2 I put the wrong thing in that X3 does do, you are right X3 is not for speed 3 in switch mode, in switch mode X1 and X2 are used.
I wrote my last post in haste as I had a made up a controller with an external switch box for switch mode operation it included a keyswitch to act as ignition to connect power to the VR circuit and a switch to activate the speed limmit mode. I was asked to do a controller with a throttle with a green button on Ideal for cycle mode using X1, I set this controller up but added the same switchbox connector as I had put on the other controller so he would have the keyswitch ignition and speed limmit switch avalible. I told him to put the speed switch in speed 2 where X1 and X2 are both disconnected he did not do as I told him he set it in speed 3 and the results reported were strange, I want to duplicate the situation to see what happens when my own switch unit is working, I told him to change to speed 2 he did and he now has no problems so no dammage was done but you saying X£ reminded me of that without me remembering the wiring behind it.
The guy is now a compleat convert he likes the idea of cycle mode alot better than switch mode.

X3 is not connected to anything if you look on the board carfully you will see a diode symbol going from DX3 to a hole next to and connected to X3 this diode and a similar diode in another place on the board has neve been put on by keywin solar may have boards from xie-chang that have this diode if so i would like to see a picture to find out what diode to use, untill then X3 or DX3 as it is untill we see if the diode is needed is used to activate the reverse speed setting the motor must have stopped turning before reverse will start, it works in both switch and cycle mode.

Geoff
 
Updated my cheat sheet, thanks

One more question: Jumping BK to ground gives you regen. I f I used a switch could this be flipped back and forth while riding or should you only change this when power off?
Would it hurt anything?
 
Here is a neat little question, don't ask why....

If X2 is grounded all the time but you are in cycle mode, will it cause problems in the controller or will the controller reject it?
I am assuming it won't matter and that the X1 momentary will still be fine


Thank you so much for your help
 
hi
BK can be jumpered with a switch, remember that regen activates on braking and throttle down. an electronic braking system is activ when not moving when BK is closed.

as for X2 locked on in cycle mode I want to test that myself I don't fully trust third party tests only there may be a problem i then like to duplicate the situation and look at the results, as yet i have not done this test.

Geoff
 
Are these all just signal lines for BK,X1,X2,DX3,CR,SL
I want to use fine wire out to external swiches

I won't need heavy gauge for any of these will I?
The only one that actually concerns me is the BK for regen. I am wondering if they take any amps or are just signal lines
 
They are all just signal lines, so thin hook-up wire will be fine. The only thing I might watch is the possibility of interference pick up on these wires from a nearby electrically noisy source. If you were running them a long distance in an electrically noisy environment (like in a bundle with the motor phase wires) then it might be worth looking at using a multi-core screened cable. My guess is that for the few feet needed on a bike plain hook-up wire will be fine.

Jeremy
 
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