internal gear multispeed hub torque stresses

E

ejonesss

10 kW
Joined
Aug 31, 2008
Messages
719
i was wondering if anyone has any experience with using a cyclone 1200 watt motor on a internal geared multi speed hub if the internal gearing can handle the torque.

i noticed that the motor has too much torque for the rear Derailleur and i was wondering if internally geared hubs can handle the torque.

the problem is when under load the chain does not have enough tension to keep the bottom of it from slopping up and down resulting in it somehow catching and wrapping around the front sprocket and jerking the chain and causing it to mangle the Derailleur.

although i can fix it back it is only a temporary fix since it does it again.

i did tighten the b tension screw in hopes it will fix it but i have not gotten out to try and see if that fixed the problem since the weather turned cold.

and i was wondering if internally gear multi speed hubs can handle the torque because they are rather expensive and i would hate to have one of them break.


thanks
 
There are a couple of recent threads about the hubs, including disassembly photos, if you look thru the View Active Topics page.

As for the chain-eating problem, that is usually caused either by a chain whose links are sticking and not freely pivoting (which can be fixed by lubrication in most cases), or by a chain that is too worn (often misleadingly called "stretched")--the latter then makes it not line up properly with teeth, especially under loads or at high speeds.

If you measure the top of your chainline under tension with a 12" ruler from pin center to pin center, it should not be any more than 1/8" longer than the ruler for one foot of chain. If it is, the chain is pretty worn out and should be replaced before it damages your chainrings too, if it hasn't already.

It's harder to tell with modern chainrings if they are worn badly, as they are not a simple U cut out, but can be complex shapes meant to help guide the chain for better shifting. If your rings are removable, you can sometimes just flip them around the other way to use the other side of the tooth, that hasn't been worn, once you change the chain. Otherwise you may have to replace the rings, too.
 
ejonesss said:
i was wondering if anyone has any experience with using a cyclone 1200 watt motor on a internal geared multi speed hub if the internal gearing can handle the torque.
Click to expand...


No they cant

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=14533&p=225129&hilit=blown+3+speed#p225129

KiM
 
GGoodrum has at least two setups running 3 speed hubs...
-shimano hub
-a sturmey hub

He has reported that some folks run eteks throught the shimano.

Miles is running at 1 to 2kW power levels
with the SRAM DD with no problems it seems.

There are failures reported for the sturmey "wide" hubs for cruisers.

I'm "hoping" that running the hub at a higher speed as an intermediate drive with less torque
loading will help.

drivePics.jpg

But according to Matex data sheets the torque handling of a planetary
goes down with speed. So, no free rides it seems.

Thuds shock load absorbing cogs sound like an excellent idea.
The motorcycle wheel I have has rubber mounts bonded to the wheel to help reduce shock loading.
 
has anyone had any failures due to running of a cyclone 1200 watt motor?

i am thinking of going to a hub based shifting system like used on a 3 speed (remember the 3 speed hubs?) and my thought is that being internally geared there would not be the slippage and failure like there is with a Derailleur based system.


AussieJester said:
ejonesss said:
i was wondering if anyone has any experience with using a cyclone 1200 watt motor on a internal geared multi speed hub if the internal gearing can handle the torque.
Click to expand...


No they cant

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=14533&p=225129&hilit=blown+3+speed#p225129

KiM
Click to expand...
 
12p3phPMDC, I was thinking along something similar on my RC build. Did you use Matex gears for the reduction stage. If so can you post more pics on the design. I'm thinking of building a similar setup as what you posted.

12p3phPMDC said:
GGoodrum has at least two setups running 3 speed hubs...
-shimano hub
-a sturmey hub

He has reported that some folks run eteks throught the shimano.

Miles is running at 1 to 2kW power levels
with the SRAM DD with no problems it seems.

There are failures reported for the sturmey "wide" hubs for cruisers.

I'm "hoping" that running the hub at a higher speed as an intermediate drive with less torque
loading will help.



But according to Matex data sheets the torque handling of a planetary
goes down with speed. So, no free rides it seems.

Thuds shock load absorbing cogs sound like an excellent idea.
The motorcycle wheel I have has rubber mounts bonded to the wheel to help reduce shock loading.
Click to expand...
 
kfong,

No, I didn't use any Matex modules for this...although I have some plans similar to and different from j3tch1u.
I have a $30 sintered module and a higher strength $70 steel module.
I think the sintered module is 1/4 the torque rating of the all steel. The all steel also has longer gears by ~25%.
I want to use them for a single stage gearhead and the eCVT.

All the planetaries for my first drive are in the shimano nexus 3 disc hub.
The disc hub makes it easy to do an input output setup that matches chainlines with the rear disc hub.
All you need is 6 bolt cogs on the disc side. The output of the jackshaft is ots, the final drive
is a modified bmx crank cog with 6 bolt pattern.

There are probably too many stages in my design, but oh, well, it's a tough packaging problem as well, with
too many considerations to list.

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=9339&hilit=catrike+three+speed&start=30#p187719

The data sheets are the only curves that I've seen that show the torque vs. speed vs. power of a planetary.
I asked the matex rep and he said the curves are with the following setup...
-sun is the input
-planet carrier is the output
-ring is stationary to the case

A three speed hub is more complex for sure.
-The sun is always stationary.
-low gear, the ring is the input, case output
-1:1 driver is locked to the case, case output
-high gear, the planet carrier is the input, case output

I wonder how the S3X works....because is it locked or 1:1 in third gear, 1st and 2nd are reductions.....hmmm....
I think trying to figure out how the rohloff or the 8 or 9 speeds work will make my head explode. :shock: I bow down to the planetary gurus that made those...
 
I think I might know why the wide SA hubs could be failure prone. In the SRAM DD hub I took apart and photographed, the method it mitigated shaft flex was through having the carrier fit right directly up against the outer bearing supports. If by chance the wider hub uses the same size carrier and guts as the narrow hubs, it would mean a substantial amount of extra unsupported shaft length. A whisker of flexing with such small gear teeth changes the loaded area, and can easily reduce the load handling of the gear by half.
 
liveforphysics said:
I think I might know why the wide SA hubs could be failure prone. In the SRAM DD hub I took apart and photographed, the method it mitigated shaft flex was through having the carrier fit right directly up against the outer bearing supports. If by chance the wider hub uses the same size carrier and guts as the narrow hubs, it would mean a substantial amount of extra unsupported shaft length. A whisker of flexing with such small gear teeth changes the loaded area, and can easily reduce the load handling of the gear by half.
Click to expand...

That makes sense. It also seems to fit and explain the "reported" data on what has worked and what hasn't.
It seems that all the failures all involve the use of a hub as wheel. Time and more broken hubs will tell I guess...

I almost went with a SA wide hub. It is the only 3 speed hub that SA makes with a disc brake six bolt connection.
But it was too long, and Shimano and SRAM make ~135 OLD hubs with discs.

With this flexing shaft theory in mind, using a three speed hub as a jackshaft may be more a reliable setup for powerful motors, because you
don't have the road shock loads directly transmitted to the axle and sun gear. I dunno yet...

From a size standpoint, the Schlumpf 2-speed uni hub sure seems like it is alot beefier than anything else out there for bicycles because it has an axle the size of a bottom bracket,
therefore the sun gear is going to be bigger, etc..etc..

UnicycleHubInside.jpg

It appears that the hub shell contains the ring gear and that the clutch makes a huge portion of the hub.
I'm trying understand how the clutch is activated. I know that there is a button on the end. THere must be the equivalent of a ball point pen click click mechanism.
where the button action slides the clutch over to engage it/disengage it ... Pretty neat.

There is also 6 planet gears and huge sun gear.
Too bad it's so expensive...and not a standard bike axle....and on on ....
 
would a http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=15154

be more reliable with a cyclone motor?
 
I think the Fallbrook Technologies CVT-P variable hub handles 4.5 KW rated (or is is 5 KW?)

It is a continously variable hub that uses large ball bearings to vary the ratio 350% and should have no problems with a 1200 watt motor.
 
Miles said:
EVnewbie said:
I think the Fallbrook Technologies CVT-P variable hub handles 4.5 KW rated (or is is 5 KW?)
Click to expand...
130 Nm
Click to expand...


130 nm? what is that?

is that the torque? if so then it is not going to handle it because upon research the 1200 watt motor has much more than 130 nm of torque and would be destroyed by the torque.

i do have an email into a nuvinci dealer to find out if the above nuvinci can handle the motor.
 
130 Newton meters of torque is the published spec. for the Nu Vinci.

1 Nm = 140 oz-in

I doubt that the Cyclone motor will deliver more than 10 Nm, so as long as you don't gear it down more than 13:1.......
 
from the site http://www.cyclone-tw.com/dc24.htm the 650 watt motor is

Rated Torque 42Kg-cm
* Max Torque 63.3Kg-cm


that is double of the 360 watt motor so the 1200 watt is for estimating purposes double of the 650 making it around

90 rated and max 120 something

unfortunately the 1200 is not listed so i am basing it on the differences between the 360 and 650.
the 90 is just the bare motor

take 90 kg-cm times 9.55 with the gearbox and you get 859.5 times 3 for the sprocket ratio of the 14 tooth sprocket on the motor to the 44 tooth sprocket of the chainring (front sprocket) and you get 2578.5 then from the (i think) 28 or 30 tooth small sprocket of the of the 3 piece chainring to the lowest gear of the rear wheel is a 34 tooth witch makes a very close to 1:1 ratio witch makes for estimating purposes close to 3000 kg-cm.



using the site http://www.engineersedge.com/calculators/torque_conversion.htm


i convert the 3000 kg-cm to footpounds it works out to be about 217 footpounds.


at those torques it would destroy the hub.

i was told that the torque rating is just the motor according to the cyclone usa dealer .

if the tw dealer is right and it includes the gearbox then divide by 9.55 and it gets 314 kg-cm and 22 footpounds.





Miles said:
130 Newton meters of torque is the published spec. for the Nu Vinci.

I doubt that the Cyclone motor will deliver more than 10 Nm, so as long as you don't gear it down more than 13:1.......
Click to expand...
 
Miles said:
130 Newton meters of torque is the published spec. for the Nu Vinci.

1 Nm = 140 oz-in

I doubt that the Cyclone motor will deliver more than 10 Nm, so as long as you don't gear it down more than 13:1.......
Click to expand...


that works out to be 94 footpounds witch means the 1200 watt motor is is over double the rating if usa is correct and it does not include the gearbox
 
it is nice to have it because i use the bike to haul heavy loads (maybe not as heavy as the csx commercial shows) but i pull an appliance dolly to haul things like air conditioners and even refrigerators i also pull a large wagon to hall stuff to the local recycling center.

in a couple years i will be moving to an area that will require a ride up a steep hill and that will put a lot of torque on the parts..

i also go to yard sales and i found that now electric i can extend the range witch allows going up to yard sales on top steep hills.

and i dont want to hub to be destroyed by the torque since the hubs are expensive.

i am hoping that i may not have to go hub based shifter if the Derailleur can be tensioned enough so the chain does not slack loose and slip and catch around the chainring.

i am preparing for the next step if there is no way to get the Derailleur tensioned tight enough to prevent slacking and wrapping

Miles said:
You just have to gear appropriately........ Ask yourself if you need more than 130 Nm of torque at the wheel.....
Click to expand...
 
a derailleur is a lot cheaper to replace they are only less than $20 i had to replace the derailleur because 2 of the teeth on one of the idler sprockets broke off causing a jam and i think the derailleur was like $14 compared to $200 plus if a hub fails.

another option i have is to run a chain to the 34 tooth lowest gear of the 7 speed freewheel and re adjust the derailleur to only use the other 6 speeds thereby the motor is set to a fixed speed for hill climbing and towing assistance or even possibly sandwiching another bike sprocket between the freewheel and the hub using a spacer to prevent binding the freewheel.

Miles said:
It's asking a lot of the derailleur set-up, too..........
Click to expand...
 
ejonesss said:
i was wondering if anyone has any experience with using a cyclone 1200 watt motor on a internal geared multi speed hub if the internal gearing can handle the torque.
Click to expand...
Burtie using the Sram Dual-drive on three cyclone bikes, including the 1200W.

"All 3 bikes use Sachs/Sram Dual Drive 3-speed hubs to good effect giving a total of 21 or 24 gears, all useable by the motor. I am careful not to shift the hub gears while the motor is diriving for fear of shredding them (especially the 1200w version). No problems with the gear hubs so-far."

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9424&start=0

[youtube]5O1hzKQNgME[/youtube]
 
do they make a 7 speed version?



TylerDurden said:
ejonesss said:
i was wondering if anyone has any experience with using a cyclone 1200 watt motor on a internal geared multi speed hub if the internal gearing can handle the torque.
Click to expand...
Burtie using the Sram Dual-drive on three cyclone bikes, including the 1200W.

"All 3 bikes use Sachs/Sram Dual Drive 3-speed hubs to good effect giving a total of 21 or 24 gears, all useable by the motor. I am careful not to shift the hub gears while the motor is diriving for fear of shredding them (especially the 1200w version). No problems with the gear hubs so-far."

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9424&start=0

[youtube]5O1hzKQNgME[/youtube]
Click to expand...
 
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