internal gear multispeed hub torque stresses

[12p3phPMDC]

lalaland,

I like how you cut the frame and welded that drive in there.

Makes for a clean installation.

 

[ejonesss]

the only problem is if you have to replace the gearbox you are stuck having to either cut it out and weld in a new one or try to rebuild it ( i am not sure if you can get replacement parts to rebuild a gearbox).

lalaland,

I like how you cut the frame and welded that drive in there.

Makes for a clean installation.

 

[12p3phPMDC]

the only problem is if you have to replace the gearbox you are stuck having to either cut it out and weld in a new one or try to rebuild it ( i am not sure if you can get replacement parts to rebuild a gearbox).

lalaland,

I like how you cut the frame and welded that drive in there.

Makes for a clean installation.

True, that is a pain. If you made a square box that the drive slips into, cut/weld into the frame...there you go.. Just as clean and replaceable.

 

[spinningmagnets]

I have a standard width Sturmey-Archer 3-speed that is available to anyone who wants to experiment with one. It is free (you must pay for your shipping of choice). I am in zip code 66441, Central Kansas, USA.

I began looking for one to play with and found two. One is a hub only and the other is on a 700c road bike rim, you can have either one, I will use the remaining one as a transmission this summer. Condition?, both old and worn (like me).

 

[enoob]

I have a standard width Sturmey-Archer 3-speed that is available to anyone who wants to experiment with one. It is free (you must pay for your shipping of choice). I am in zip code 66441, Central Kansas, USA.

I began looking for one to play with and found two. One is a hub only and the other is on a 700c road bike rim, you can have either one, I will use the remaining one as a transmission this summer. Condition?, both old and worn (like me).

dang it man . im at the local hobby shop and logged in for this . ill pay the shipping and TRADE you one of my motors for that piece of gear. just let me get home and try what im about to buy and make sure the trade is worth it on your end.

 

[ejonesss]

pm sent

I have a standard width Sturmey-Archer 3-speed that is available to anyone who wants to experiment with one. It is free (you must pay for your shipping of choice). I am in zip code 66441, Central Kansas, USA.

I began looking for one to play with and found two. One is a hub only and the other is on a 700c road bike rim, you can have either one, I will use the remaining one as a transmission this summer. Condition?, both old and worn (like me).

 

[spinningmagnets]

Both ejonesss and enoob want one, so I will send both of them out. I can get more (don't know exactly when, it just keeps happening once in a while) and I won't be working on my project for a few months. (I have several projects I want to work on, in no particular order).

 

[amberwolf]

If you run across more, and they're cheap enough, I could use a pair of them for my trike's dual front wheel drive. Right now from what I have been able to work out, it will be pretty complex and ungainly to get a 2+ speed setup up there. See my ARTOO thread for some of the ideas I've had so far.


EDIT (ADDED): Regarding the NuVinci relative to use with electric motors, keep in mind that although people have used them successfully with motor drives, Falbrook specifically invalidates any warranty claims they find caused by such usage, in their sole judgement. When I asked about it they pretty much said that using a motor or anything other than human power thru it is not allowed under warranty, and neither is using it anywhere in the drivetrain other than in the rear wheel.

That's a shame, since I was hoping to A) use one on one of my earlier cargo bike designs at least a couple of years back, and B) get around the torque limitations by putting it before the final reduction stages, so it would not see such stresses (though it would have to spin faster).

Also, it seems to absorb significant amounts of power out of what passes thru it, up to almost a third according to at least one project here on ES.

 

[TylerDurden]

Here are quite a few hubs opened-up for comparison:
http://rideyourbike.com/internalgears.html

 

[mrbill]

from the site http://www.cyclone-tw.com/dc24.htm the 650 watt motor is

Rated Torque 42Kg-cm
* Max Torque 63.3Kg-cm


that is double of the 360 watt motor so the 1200 watt is for estimating purposes double of the 650 making it around

90 rated and max 120 something

unfortunately the 1200 is not listed so i am basing it on the differences between the 360 and 650.
the 90 is just the bare motor

take 90 kg-cm times 9.55 with the gearbox and you get 859.5 times 3 for the sprocket ratio of the 14 tooth sprocket on the motor to the 44 tooth sprocket of the chainring (front sprocket) and you get 2578.5 then from the (i think) 28 or 30 tooth small sprocket of the of the 3 piece chainring to the lowest gear of the rear wheel is a 34 tooth witch makes a very close to 1:1 ratio witch makes for estimating purposes close to 3000 kg-cm.



using the site http://www.engineersedge.com/calculators/torque_conversion.htm


i convert the 3000 kg-cm to footpounds it works out to be about 217 footpounds.


at those torques it would destroy the hub.

i was told that the torque rating is just the motor according to the cyclone usa dealer .

if the tw dealer is right and it includes the gearbox then divide by 9.55 and it gets 314 kg-cm and 22 footpounds.

I think your calculation is off a bit, although your final conclusion may be the same.

Here are the numbers that I get:

Use the curve for the "500-watt" motor as this is the same motor used in the "1200-watt" kit. Torque is proportional to current, and we know that the external controller supplied with these motors limits current to about 55 Amps. (Note, the "1200-watt" kit is rated for higher power by being driven at 48 volts and does not affect the torque-current relationship of the motor.)

For the "500-watt" motor (larger of the two Headline motors used with the planetary gearbox), the torque is about 36 kgf-cm or 3.5 Nm for 40Amps. Scaling to 55Amps, we get 4.8 Nm at the motor output shaft. (I believe these curves are for the motor only because the graph uses RPM for the X-axis in a range that appears reasonable for the raw motor only.)

Running this figure through all of the gear conversions I get:

Output of planetary gearbox (9.33/1)*4.8 = 44.9 Nm
At crank (44/14)*44.9 = 141 Nm
At rear wheel using lowest gear (34/28)*141 = 171 Nm = 1744 kgf-cm = 126 lb-ft

 

[lalaland]

the only problem is if you have to replace the gearbox you are stuck having to either cut it out and weld in a new one or try to rebuild it ( i am not sure if you can get replacement parts to rebuild a gearbox).

lalaland,

I like how you cut the frame and welded that drive in there.

Makes for a clean installation.

True, that is a pain. If you made a square box that the drive slips into, cut/weld into the frame...there you go.. Just as clean and replaceable.

Um -- look closer - thats what I've done

 

[boostjuice]

Hi,
I'm new here but I thought I'd add my 2 cents worth. I ve got a 600-1200 W cyclone motor and a 8 speed Nexus which are working quite well together. I was fairly dubious about the long term reliability of the Nexus so I try not to 'shock' load it.
Pic here http://osv.freehostia.com/photos/DSCN1606.JPG

Any chance of hosting your pics on a non-spam website that doesn't require you to sign-up even as a guest just trying to view your pictures?

EDIT: This sign up screen seems to only appear with Firefox. Works fine with IE, WTF?

 

[ejonesss]

image works ok for me.

i was unable to connect to an austrialian proxy to test if it is limited to your location (i have heard that the austrialian government is toying with the idea of internet censorship and may have done something to redirect links).

it is possible that the user's bandwidth quota had been used up at the time or maintenance on by the hosting co and you caught it right in the middle of a restoring of data or something.

update: i just tried firefox and it seems as the referrer system is what is causing the problem.

they dont like hotlinking try copy and pasting link and you will be ok or the admins need to add a referrer killer script so the referrer code is not sent.

Hi,
I'm new here but I thought I'd add my 2 cents worth. I ve got a 600-1200 W cyclone motor and a 8 speed Nexus which are working quite well together. I was fairly dubious about the long term reliability of the Nexus so I try not to 'shock' load it.
Pic here http://osv.freehostia.com/photos/DSCN1606.JPG

Any chance of hosting your pics on a non-spam website that doesn't require you to sign-up even as a guest just trying to view your pictures?

EDIT: This sign up screen seems to only appear with Firefox. Works fine with IE, WTF?

 

[ejonesss]

the 1200 watt motor is bigger so it should have more torque since the biggest one 1500 has a higher torque.

maybe it is one of those counterintuitive things that despite the size it does not have more power.

the 1200 watt motor uses an external controller.

it is only the 360 and 500 that uses internal controller.

from the site http://www.cyclone-tw.com/dc24.htm the 650 watt motor is

Rated Torque 42Kg-cm
* Max Torque 63.3Kg-cm


that is double of the 360 watt motor so the 1200 watt is for estimating purposes double of the 650 making it around

90 rated and max 120 something

unfortunately the 1200 is not listed so i am basing it on the differences between the 360 and 650.
the 90 is just the bare motor

take 90 kg-cm times 9.55 with the gearbox and you get 859.5 times 3 for the sprocket ratio of the 14 tooth sprocket on the motor to the 44 tooth sprocket of the chainring (front sprocket) and you get 2578.5 then from the (i think) 28 or 30 tooth small sprocket of the of the 3 piece chainring to the lowest gear of the rear wheel is a 34 tooth witch makes a very close to 1:1 ratio witch makes for estimating purposes close to 3000 kg-cm.



using the site http://www.engineersedge.com/calculators/torque_conversion.htm


i convert the 3000 kg-cm to footpounds it works out to be about 217 footpounds.


at those torques it would destroy the hub.

i was told that the torque rating is just the motor according to the cyclone usa dealer .

if the tw dealer is right and it includes the gearbox then divide by 9.55 and it gets 314 kg-cm and 22 footpounds.

I think your calculation is off a bit, although your final conclusion may be the same.

Here are the numbers that I get:

Use the curve for the "500-watt" motor as this is the same motor used in the "1200-watt" kit. Torque is proportional to current, and we know that the external controller supplied with these motors limits current to about 55 Amps. (Note, the "1200-watt" kit is rated for higher power by being driven at 48 volts and does not affect the torque-current relationship of the motor.)

For the "500-watt" motor (larger of the two Headline motors used with the planetary gearbox), the torque is about 36 kgf-cm or 3.5 Nm for 40Amps. Scaling to 55Amps, we get 4.8 Nm at the motor output shaft. (I believe these curves are for the motor only because the graph uses RPM for the X-axis in a range that appears reasonable for the raw motor only.)

Running this figure through all of the gear conversions I get:

Output of planetary gearbox (9.33/1)*4.8 = 44.9 Nm
At crank (44/14)*44.9 = 141 Nm
At rear wheel using lowest gear (34/28)*141 = 171 Nm = 1744 kgf-cm = 126 lb-ft

 

[AussieJester]

Thought we best 'update' this thread for anyone that comes across it in their researching...Deecanio, as i predicted rooted his brand spankin new sram geared hub on the very first ride....Anyone looking for a 'cheap' hub p.m Deec i believe its for Sale...minus 1st gear FYI:- Deecs setup was Astro 3220 HV110 ESC 448v setup.

So once again i shall say mulit speed rear hubs aren't suitable for high powered setups ...

KiM

p.s one more time...Deec...I told you so

 

[deecanio]

i do have the sram/trigger shift/click box all for sale, Burtie has first dibs here but the cost isn't cheap, so be warned, even minus first gear (clucks) i would still be looking for a fair price as its only 20 minutes old, to be fair although Kim is bang on the money i think it would be fine on a lower power ride.

D

 

[John in CR]

i do have the sram/trigger shift/click box all for sale, Burtie has first dibs here but the cost isn't cheap, so be warned, even minus first gear (clucks) i would still be looking for a fair price as its only 20 minutes old, to be fair although Kim is bang on the money i think it would be fine on a lower power ride.

D

A fair price for something broken would be free.

 

[John in CR]

What sucks is that the centrifugal clutch I'll have to run with mine will probably weigh almost as much as the outrunner I extracted from a geared hub to drive it. :?

 

[jateureka]

FWIW I have seen several Sturmey Archer XLR-D3 and XR-D3 3 speed hub breakages on a trike with rider weight of about 95kg and trike+load weight of 100kg.
No such problems with Shimano Nexus, plus Nexus is easier to adjust.

Could not find any manufacturer's data on load ratings.

 

[deecanio]

i do have the sram/trigger shift/click box all for sale, Burtie has first dibs here but the cost isn't cheap, so be warned, even minus first gear (clucks) i would still be looking for a fair price as its only 20 minutes old, to be fair although Kim is bang on the money i think it would be fine on a lower power ride.

D

A fair price for something broken would be free.

not quite,

it is 2/3rds operational so i would be looking for 2/3rds cost
i think i'll repair it tbh, maybe even try again

D

 

[AussieJester]

i think it would be fine on a lower power ride.D

Remembering Matt.P busted his 3 speed with a 1000watt cyclone :wink

i think i'll repair it tbh, maybe even try again

hehe sucker for punishment aint you buddu i guess therez still 2 more gears to
try to destroy so it will be a thorough "test" Deec ...thankyou

KiM

 

[TopCat]

Thought we best 'update' this thread for anyone that comes across it in their researching...Deecanio, as i predicted rooted his brand spankin new sram geared hub on the very first ride....Anyone looking for a 'cheap' hub p.m Deec i believe its for Sale...minus 1st gear FYI:- Deecs setup was Astro 3220 HV110 ESC 448v setup.

So once again i shall say mulit speed rear hubs aren't suitable for high powered setups ...

KiM

p.s one more time...Deec...I told you so

Glad I read through this thread as I was thinking of getting a SA 3 speed wide hub (SX-RK3) and sticking it on my Spoiler. I now know not to try running an RC motor through it? Thanks Kim

Regards
Tom

 

[jmygann]

The ones that broke were not SRAM DD .. correct ??

 

[mwkeefer]

Wait just a moment...

D - you managed to toast the SA3 with the 3210 in 20 minutes?

Which SA3 (where did ya get it from?)? And with which Astro 3210?

I have your old 10t here and am about to pull the trigger with Matt on a 4:1 first stage drive which will first install on my 26" Jack and I have the SA3 rear being built up as I write this (decided to farm it to the LBS, I don't have 3+ hours)...

What Turns were you using and at what power level...?

I'm planning to run this around 60-80A max on 12S and gearing for 25mph in 1st (.75:1) any tips?

When done with this one, I planned to move onto the 20" folder RC conversions...

Am I SUACWOAP?

-Mike

 

[recumpence]

Mike, I think he blew his hub with a 3220, if I am not mistaken.

Matt