Is the BBS02 a better option over a direct drive hub motor ?

[ebikedelight]

Ive spent the last several weeks reading posts and reviews on the 750 watt BBSO2 . Theres no denying that this unit has its share of problems , both mechanical and electrical . It seems as though if one is going to purchase this unit, they had better do it from the reputable seller most people mention .

Ive been using the standard ebay $200 brushless hub motor for the last 3 years . 1000 watt/ 48 volt system and although it does lack the power/ torque on large inclines , this unit has provided me with trouble free performance . From my research, it surely seems the BBS02 , is not nearly as reliable in regards to its internal gears, controller system , quirkiness and need for it to be maintained, lubed or have its internal gearing systems checked after repeated use. We also have to consider the extra stress this unit puts on the bikes chains , bottom bracket , gearing setup, etc.

I think if the manufacturer of the BBS02, can eventually workout and fix the reliability issues , I would purchase one of these units , because I do live in a hilly area, but I did not want to spend $500 on something that seems to be so hit or miss when I could stick with my trouble free direct drive brushless hub motor, and just occasionally do some pedal assisting, when traversing large inclines/ sloped roads in my area.

In a few short months, we should be seeing another company offering a modified BBS02 at a price around $800 , that will directly fit fat bikes . Im trying to convince myself to make this purchase, but the reliability issues are my biggest hurdle.

 

[melodious]

I'm almost starting to believe, with a few exceptions, that any motor with integrated gearing reduction is waiting for some circumstance that the torqueing forces will break a tooth or two. We're talking bombing, hard aggressive riding over tree ruts and stuff with a hard tail. Maybe a FS would bear the brunt of the impacts lessening the chance for that to happen.

IMO, the BBS is definitely road worthy, but it isn't bombproof. My 2¢.

 

[Ykick]

Never gonna be a clear-cut answer.

I used to shy away from geared hub motors too but since using some I’ve come to realize they’re generally reliable. Barring harsh use or extreme power levels most motor products tend to function as intended for long periods of time.

However, completed weight, ease/quality of installation plus battery C rate being much more important consideration than any perceived “reliability” issues.

 

[Warren]

Bill is very methodical, and does great tests.

http://mrbill.homeip.net/bikeBlog.php?2015#laHonda.2015.02.04

http://mrbill.homeip.net/bikeBlog.php?2015#hubMotorHillsTesting.2015.02

http://mrbill.homeip.net/bikeBlog.php?2015#mountHamiltonCCW.2015.02.21

As somebody here said recently, up to 1,000 battery watts, and ridden like a bicycle, through the gears is great. If you don't pedal, and flog it like a scooter, forget running through the gears.

I run a geared hub motor through the gears, and the only drivetrain problem, so far, was a hall failure. And that may have been my fault. After 17,000 miles I am still running the original planetary gears, and clutch. After initially sorting out my gearing, I have run the same chainring, motor cogs, and cassette, replacing chains every 3,350 miles. No riding in the last two weeks of polar weather, but 17,070 miles since September of 2011.

I suspect that a BB02, used as a light assist for bicycling, will last for years.

 

[spinningmagnets]

I have been given the impression that quite a few of the new BBS02 owners don't really have any hills of a concerning steepness. With a fairly flat terrain, a BBS02 owner might get tired of frequently shifting, and then drive such an equipped bike as a one or a two-speed. Riders with mild hills are frequently pleased with just a large geared hub (BMC/MAC/etc) using roughly 1,200W.

If your hills are truly needing a mid drive (in order to give the motor some gears to shift with), then I have two options you may wish to consider.

1) BBS02, 48V, limited to 1,000W max (battery must provide 21A continuous). If the controller cooks, run a sensorless external sine-wave controller, easily found for under $100.

2) you decide you want a mid drive using 48V, but desire more performance? get the Lightning Rods kit. Can be run at 48V-72V, motor will take 40A bursts, and 30A continuous. so...48V X 30 = 1,440W, with 40A bursts...48 x 40 = 1,920W. Battery can be an 18650 pack from em3ev, or LiPo. Because you can downshift the motor to keep the RPMs up, a 12-FET controller should be adequate.

For a hub to use on steep hills to compare with...

3) You decide you want a rear hubmotor (no explanation is necessary). Use 72V with a minimum of 40A (but more is better) 72V X 40A = 2,880W. I'd recommend the MXUS 3000W in this category (45mm wide stator), laced to a 24-inch rim, with an 18-FET controller. With ventilation, maybe the 35mm wide stator motors might work (like Leafmotor, Crown, and Crystalyte H35)

I have an LR kit, and have ridden several BBS02's, but I havent ridden the third suggestion.

 

[LyonNightroad]

I believe when you add up the pros and cons the Bafang Mid-Drive comes out on top when you compare to similar watt hub motors. Mine has been bullet-proof and I am a super-clyde. It's so versatile. It's like having a 6t mac and a 12t mac on the same bike. I have rode it for 30 minutes straight several times drawing max amps going 32mph non stop. No over-heating issues. If you are a set it and forget it type, I might not recommend it. I had to open it up and tighten some countersunk screws that attach the largest reduction gear to the shaft. Not a big deal to me. I enjoyed the process and now that I've had a chance to lube it and check everything I feel really good about it.

I don't recommend doing what I do, but I up shift under power with my bbs-02. I purchased a very strong chain and cassette. This allows me to achieve the fastest 0-30 possible with the same number of watts. I've been doing this for months with no ill effect other than more frequent cassette/chain replacement.

I have taken my bike on mountain bike trails using a 34t chainring. THE TORQUE IS INSANE!!!! There is no hill I could not climb. But take the exact same bike out on the street and I could still hit 25mph. Put the 44t chainring back on and you can hit 32 mph again.

If you really like accelerating from a stop at max power to feel the acceleration you can't beat a mid drive, you get to do that in the lowest gear as efficiently as possible, while generating the least heat. A desirable thing if you take your bike in to the city where you have to stop and go. You get the low end acceleration of a high turn hub motor with the top speed of a low turn hub motor.

Long story short: If you want a motor you can set and forget, go hub motor. If you like to tinker, have fun experimenting, don't mind replacing chains and cassettes, and want a super versatile and efficient setup that does the most with the least watts - MID DRIVE!

 

[Gab]

If you want more power then the BBs02 and a more compact and cleaner looking build then the LR kit then the AFT EMAX is probably the best mid drive kit out their now and all aluminium mount kit it should be lighter then the steel LR, check out this recent build here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=66134

Also being strait cut gears and ceramic bearings with oil its probably a lot more efficient reduction then the LR dual stage belt drive. And since the reduction is so compact, the whole kit makes the bike look more like a bike and less like a motorbike than the larger bulky and heavier LR with steel mount brackets. Do you want it for offroad or onroad ?

The BEWO looks ok but its a wimpy 250w and i haven't heard of many being happy for long with that low power, as it would barely cover the extra weight and loss of efficiency of being ebike vs pedal bike. You need to peddle a lot to carry all that extra weight so 500w is where it will be faster and better then a peddle bike.

 

[neptronix]

A modern, high efficiency-type hub ( leafmotor, mxus ) will whoop a mid drive in every way. Even up hills.

But in terms of weight. the bbs02 is pretty light for the kinds of hills that it's capable of conquering. And feels good on a dual suspension bike.. at the drawback of the usual mid drive issues ( chain stuff, reduction stuff, and in the bbs02's case, an internal controller that is not known for it's reliability )

 

[neptronix]

A modern, high efficiency-type hub ( leafmotor, mxus ) will whoop a mid drive in every way. Even up hills.

Since when there is out such miracles? When the motor design is identical to all.
The most badly designed motor is the hub design.
They use it because it is cheap to build.
At Mid-drive KIT if we remove electronics and the parts which involved to transfer kinetic energy, the motor it self is based on technology that is tested for 70 years or even more.

Sorry, but you need to read up, You're totally incorrect. I just mentioned two hubs with high efficiency features not found in other hub motors above.

And there is no major difference between the stator construction of a mid drive motor and a hub. Both have the same brushless DC design. You'd know this if you saw pictures of the stator of both.

Please read up before you speak further.

 

[ebikedelight]

Sorry, but you need to read up, You're totally incorrect. I just mentioned two hubs with high efficiency features not found in other hub motors above.

And there is no major difference between the stator construction of a mid drive motor and a hub. Both have the same brushless DC design. You'd know this if you saw pictures of the stator of both.

Please read up before you speak further.

Who certified their efficiency ? which testing organization gave such a report?
If you do not have these answers then this information is plain marketing claims for advertising benefits and not proofs.

Dude, the guy you are debating with, performs his own tests and aint talking out his ass, like you are.

 

[neptronix]

Who certified their efficiency ? which testing organization gave such a report?
If you do not have these answers then this information is plain marketing claims for advertising benefits and not proofs.

Bafang certified their own efficiency, and i owned one. Easily found in their spec sheets, often found in product listings, maybe even on their own website.

This is another indicator that you are not researching before you speak.

p.s. i owned a Bbs02 and did numerous tests on it in a build thread linked in my signature, FFS...

 

[puregsr]

Riding my BBS02 is like riding a motorcycle where you're constantly shifting, except you'll cringe whenever it's shifting under load when you don't take your time. Whenever you're screeching off the line trying to stay up with cars, you need to cut power when you're shifting and run out of low gears quickly, so it gets a little "busy." Some say you can upshift under load, I don't think so, unless you're in assist level 1.

I can see some people just sticking it in a high gear and lug the motor, but I don't think that's good for it either. If you use the brake to cut off power, it'll take about 1 second before power comes back, so imagine going up the hill while shifting. Think of a 5 speed transmission in your Honda vs the dual-clutch in a Ferrari, acceleration is always going to be smoother with a hub motor. What's worse is that chainline is not perfect with factory parts, so I'm shifting carefully.

Don't get me wrong, I don't regret getting the BBS02, because I'm able to ride it like a regular bike especially when I'm not using power, able to pedal past other cyclists on the trail without that whirl from the motor.

Hub motor rides more like a scooter. It's so easy. I really just need to shift 3 times (uphill, flat, downhill). It rides less like a regular bike because of all the unsprung weight. But the other day I put my child in the child carrier and I forgot to bring my battery <gasp> for the geared hub motor bike. I had to pedal like a regular bike and I was fine; almost forgot how fun it is to ride slowly, enjoy the scenery, and build up a sweat. That's what biking is all about!

So, to sum it up. BBS02 rides like a motorcycle and hub motor rides like a scooter. For the BBS02, you'll need to check your bike regularly because of the extra strain on the drivetrain. Just my opinion.

 

[neptronix]

Good points.
The chainline issue and the pedal offset were big problems for me with the bbs02.. those are the main reasons i went back to hubs.

A mid drive ( or any other small motor ) is a good way to dole out power though. It's hard to be sparing with multiple kW on tap when you have a powerful hub...

 

[dusan]

Yeah, mid drive kits in current days are not in final state. Manufacturers are offering kit with 1 chainring, mostly for flat roads, even Bosch can't understand how important is to have 2 chainrings especially for 250W kit. Yamaha is closer but still not regular bike.
Also bottom bracket is too wide and weak in most cases.
If you don't plan to spend some time with your kit and invest additional money than stay with hub.

 

[samsavvas]

So, to sum it up. BBS02 rides like a motorcycle and hub motor rides like a scooter. For the BBS02, you'll need to check your bike regularly because of the extra strain on the drivetrain. Just my opinion.

...or just get a modest 36V BBS-1 250/350 watt, keep it on PAS and forget it's there. More power always = more worries and trouble! Just sayin'....

Savvas.

 

[neptronix]

Yeah, mid drive kits in current days are not in final state. Manufacturers are offering kit with 1 chainring, mostly for flat roads, even Bosch can't understand how important is to have 2 chainrings especially for 250W kit. Yamaha is closer but still not regular bike.
Also bottom bracket is too wide and weak in most cases.
If you don't plan to spend some time with your kit and invest additional money than stay with hub.

Yes, they have a ways to go.
Weak? maybe for some kits. The BBS02 is the most solid piece of equipment i've handled. Took numerous slams to the axle with a hammer and everything remained straight.

The wide pedaling stance hurt my already-fragile knees. The right pedal going outwards 10mm did not help either. It is just not natural to pedal this.. as soon as i went back to a normal width bottom bracket, the knee pain ceased during pedaling.. isn't that interesting..

 

[puregsr]

To tell you the truth, I was debating between the MAC or the BBS02. Cost upfront seems higher for the BBS02, but after adding up a few things such as torque arms, mosfet upgrade, freewheel, controller program cable, PAS, ebike tester, issue with disc rotor clearance, they add up fairly quickly.

In order to run hub motor safely and reliably, it still takes effort and money.

 

[neptronix]

If i had to chose today between both motors, i'd go with a MAC.. no question.
Dunno why you'd need a mosfet upgrade. Run a 3077 FET controller on an 8T.. it rocks, and it's an efficient + cheap FET, and the MAC is happy on 36v-48v voltages. PAS sucks on a high powered bike; forget that. Ebike tester.. that's optional, you don't really need it. Controller cable, yeah get one.. fine tuning the phase:battery amp ratio on the MAC can really help mold it's powerband to your tastes.

The MAC setup is far more reliable than any mid drive. I ran one for 3 years solid with no issues, and beat the hell out of it. Whereas my BBS02 had me worried about it's reliability right out the gate due to controller issues and the massive amount of heat it'd create in such a short period of time.

To tell you the truth, I was debating between the MAC or the BBS02. Cost upfront seems higher for the BBS02, but after adding up a few things such as torque arms, mosfet upgrade, freewheel, controller program cable, PAS, ebike tester, issue with disc rotor clearance, they add up fairly quickly.

In order to run hub motor safely and reliably, it still takes effort and money.

 

[Abagrizzli]

Mid drive is irreplaceable for mountain bike, especially full suspension, I think. None of the hub motors can offer optimal weight distribution, due to a heavy rear wheel with obvious build issues, since you can't use any decent hubs, spokes and rims. I can imagine, what may happen to the wheel and the motor as a result of constant shaking and beating. The mid drive build does not suffer from much abuse, given it sits in the center and low on a bike, it is more efficient with pedaling and the power distribution for singletracks and general off-roading.

 

[jk1]

Abagrizly made some good points about weight distribution.

The other main points i think is important is you can make do with a motor HALF the power since the gear systems gives you at least twice the torque compared to a hub motor. And hence the motor can weigh HALF as much as an equivalent performing hub motor. Also since you can make the motor operate longer times in its more efficient RPM and use the gearing you will use less power and hence go further on the same battery or use a smaller battery, and hence you will save evene more weight then hub ie. lighter motor and smaller battery, which improves the bike weight balance even further.

A hub motor is good and simple when everything is working ! but if you have problems -which you will have a lot more broken spokes in the back wheel due to the weight and also if you have any failure in the rear internal freewheel on a geared hub or magnet failure the rear wheel will lockup and be unridebale and you will be stranded. With a cyclone or Gng type mid drive you will not have any rear wheel spoke failures and even if the motor does fail you can ride it home under peddle power as the wheel is not effected. However i am not sure if this is true for a BBS02 if it has gearbox of motor/freewheel failures does it lock up the cranks ? The BBS02 is a very complicated and compact design with inbuilt controller, which make it a nightmare to trouble shoot and or get spares as its all custom made, the cyclone/AFT and gng/LR style kits are simpler and easier to repair also.

The weakest point on the mid drive is the chains, so if you chose good quality chains and use guides to make sure you have no derailments then the mid drive will be more reliable if you use less then 1 to 1.5kw peak power. Any more then that and bicycle chain and components may start having a short life.

 

[wineboyrider]

Just built my firs bbs02 and already had to bypass the controller and use my external lyen controller. The bbs02 is a lot more refined than my old 900w cyclone kit, but a mid drive kit is definitely not the best choice for someone who commutes a lot of miles either as the maintenance of the chain gets to be a PITA. Mind you I racked up close to 7500 miles on my hub motor in 2009 as I had no drivers license and used a bicycle as my sole transportation means. I quickly dropped the cyclone kit and used a 9c and racked up thousands of trouble free miles.

 

[jk1]

The chainline issue and the pedal offset were big problems for me with the bbs02

Neptronix how far out does the BBs02 peddles sit and it caused you knee problems ?How does it compare to normal MTB cranks/peddles on a bike ? what Bottom bracket width does it have? and are the crank straight or bent out on BBS02 ?

How does it compared to the common LR/Cyclone1 48mm isis bb and dished out cranks ? is it wider then that or less ?

 

[1boris]

A 2 speed hub motor is the best solution imo.I dont like the high pedaling cadence with a bbs mid drive.A mac motor with a 2 speed internal gear like the Xiongda would be the perfect ebike motor.

 

[eMax]

The BEWO looks ok but its a wimpy 250w and i haven't heard of many being happy for long with that low power, as it would barely cover the extra weight and loss of efficiency of being ebike vs pedal bike. You need to peddle a lot to carry all that extra weight so 500w is where it will be faster and better then a peddle bike.

Will be testing a BEWO in direct competition with a BBS02 programmed to 500w. FYI BEWO have a version rated to 550w. I will be running it with a CA3 and infineon controller to gather stats on efficiencies. One advantage of this kit is the external controller and far more programability through the display.

 

[teslanv]

My first ebike was a BBS02 kit. I have ridden it over a year. After 400 miles or so, I shredded an oring on the rotor, and had to completely disassemble the motor. I was able to repair it, and regreased it gratuitously when reassmbling the motor, and it has worked fine for another 800+ miles. However the constant shifting got annoying and I began testing the waters with DD hub motors. I tried a Yescomusa 1000W DD Hub, and liked it, but wanted more power and speed. That's when I discovered the MXUS 3000W motors. I did a group buy back in October for 40 of them. They are now my favorite motor. I am currently riding a 3T (12Kv) MXUS at 4000W power levels and LOVING IT.

And as far as reliability goes, it is my opinion that a DD hub is THE MOST RELIABLE ebike motor design. The only moving parts are the bearings, which can be swapped out easily. The only problems DD hub motors ever have are primarily due to neglect and misuse. This usually involves letting them get wet (Causing corrosion in the stator), or running too much current through them and shorting the phases. Apart from those problems, DD hubs are the ultimatel Ebike motor. And DD Hubs ARE more efficient than Mid-drives, because they have no gearing losses.