KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

[stancecoke]

In case of my electric tricycle, the "reverse march" is a must

There were several requests for reverse direction before in the german forum, e.g. from Xiongda-Users, where the motor direction changes the gear ratio.

I have to think about it

regards
stancecoke

 

[kristof645]

I'm not an expert on the matter, but your case is very similar to mine, so I can tell you my own experience :
...

Hello Fratto,
I really thank you for your explanations!
I can't simply modify the controller as my OZO FREERIDER motor no have hall sensors but I'm very impatient to try the firmware without FOC!!
I'll will give a feedback of my experience.
Regards,
Christophe

 

[kristof645]

Hi all,

I'm waiting for all the stuff to write the firmware and debug but I would appreciate some help in finding the optimal settings.

I just need torque because I use the assistance to climb hills and my maximum speed assistance is currently set at 17 km / h.

I understand the "battery current limit" but how can I determine the optimal maximum current phase for my use and not fry my controller ??

My configuration is:
- 36V battery, nominal current 20A, max current 30A
- KT 36 / 48ZWS 6FET, nominal current 8A, max current 17A
- Hub geared motor without hall sensor, certified for 48v / 25a / 1350w controller

Thank you for your time,
Christophe

 

[obcd]

http://www.mekacademy.com/

I am a bit confused here as the mounting of the planet wheels is rotating as well.
If I remember well, in my front wheel geared hub motor, they are fixed to the axis and frame...?
So, can't I just take the teeth ratio to figure out motor speed / wheel speed proportion?

Sorry for it being a bit off topic. I just stumbled upon it in here.

 

[Valopallo]

- Hub geared motor without hall sensor, certified for 48v / 25a / 1350w controller

As stancecoke already stated, you cannot use this firmware with sensorless motor.

 

[kristof645]

Hello,
Fratto does use it with a ZWS sensorless controller after disabling FOC/interpolation.
I don't understand your answer.

EDIT : OK, I didn't see previous answer of Stancoke, but I still don't understand how it could work with Fratto's ZWS which is sensorless controller without adding sensor module.

Regards,
Christophe

 

[stancecoke]

„ZWS“ says block commutation, there are versions that have the hall-connector and the additional sensorless-board in parallel.
So they can work in sensored and in sensorless mode with the stock firmware.
regards
stancecoke

 

[Valopallo]

EDIT : OK, I didn't see previous answer of Stancoke, but I still don't understand how it could work with Fratto's ZWS which is sensorless controller without adding sensor module.

Yes, but he/she doesn't mention anything about his/her motor which obviously is HALL sensored to be able to use this firmware. Now what I've understood here is that you have a HALL sensorless motor(no HALL wires) and KT-S06SZWS controller that does not have a phase current sensor. I think you're mixing two different sensors here. All you need to get is either a HALL sensored motor(to use this firmware) or KT-S06SZWS version that operates also on sensorless motor -mode(and use the stock KT firmware). To use this open source firmware you need to have HALL sensored motor and to be able to use FOC with it, you need a KT-S06SSVP controller that has a phase current sensor on board or as Fratto mentioned, you can post install the sensor to the empty pin of KT-S06SZWS and use that.

 

[stancecoke]

I am a bit confused here as the mounting of the planet wheels is rotating as well.

the german wikipedia-page gives detailed information:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umlaufr%C3%A4dergetriebe

regards
stancecoke

 

[john61ct]

To use this open source firmware you need to have HALL sensored motor and to be able to use FOC with it, you need a KT-S06SSVP controller that has a phase current sensor on board

I have found this topic

"what defines true sinewave FOC?"

a challenge to nail down.

Confirmed examples: Sabvoton, as with Borg Cromotor
PhaseRunner
Zero electric motorcycle


gathered so far:

current sensor **on each phase connection** in the motor, to provide
direct real-time sensing of motor current amps
instantaneous CPU-intensive analysis of that data, high bandwidth calculations to predict the rotor angle / position in real-time

Now, I thought that Hall sensors were a compromise, that the phase sensing with True FOC was done via shunts?

As in "sinusoidal commutation, interpolating from the hall sensors" as opposed to "true sinewave FOC".

Where does a S06SSVP controller running the FOSS firmware,

with just a single Hall phase current sensor

Fit into this "true FOC" vs "pseudo FOC mode" continuum?

 

[stancecoke]

Now, I thought that Hall sensors were a compromise, that the phase sensing with True FOC was done via shunts?

You are mixing up things.
The hall sensors in the motor are detecting the rotor position (but only 6 states per revolution) This has nothing to do with sinusoidal or FOC commutation.

Sinusoidal commutation means, that the phase currents are shaped sinusoidal. You can put a sinusoidal voltage on the coils and you will get a sinusoidal current. (even if the motor isn't spinning ) But you have to syncronize the voltage with the rotor position to make the motor run.

With FOC you can control the voltage (and current as a result) in a way, that you get most torque and minimum heat from the motor. (or do field weakaning e.g....)
You need at least two phase current sensors (as the sum of the three currents is always zero, you don't need to measure the third phase current)

For sensorless FOC you need an "observer" that predicts the rotor position.

The STM8 processor in the Kunteng SVPR is too slow to do all the calculations for FOC, let alone the additional rotor position prediction.
The Kunteng SVPR uses only one phase current sensor (based on the hall effect , not a simple shunt+opamp ) and we are doing what we called "simplyfied FOC". We syncronize the rotorposition with the zero-crossing of the one phase current signal. The rotor position is extrapolated from the motor-hall signals.

There are several open source examples how sensorless FOC can work on cheap e-bike controllers e.g. the vesc or my lishui project.

regards
stancecoke

 

[Valopallo]

Where does a S06SSVP controller running the FOSS firmware,

with just a single Hall phase current sensor

Fit into this "true FOC" vs "pseudo FOC mode" continuum?

Well, can the "true FOC" be achieved with the components of the KT controllers?
If not, then I guess this is irrelevat to this thread and we have to live with the "woke as FOC" we have here

 

[kristof645]

...All you need to get is either a HALL sensored motor(to use this firmware) or KT-S06SZWS version that operates also on sensorless motor -mode(and use the stock KT firmware)...

Thank's to Valopallo and Stancecoke for your explanations.
Regards,
Christophe

 

[john61ct]

The hall sensors in the motor are detecting the rotor position (but only 6 states per revolution) This has nothing to do with sinusoidal or FOC commutation.

OK thanks, I'll do some more reading / research to try to understand more of that than I do now.

 

[qwerkus]

Here I am trying to install the opensource firmware on a KT controller. Hardware has been prepped and I'm ready to hit the magic button. Only thing bothering me is this line on page 4 of the online instructions:
https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbucket.io/windows_instructions/index4.html

Please make sure to find out the correct phase and Hall sensor assignment on the complete system with the original firmware before deleting.

How do I find out phase wire assignment and hall sensor angle for my motor with the original firmware ? Motor is RH212. I don't see a debug / test function on the KT firmware.

 

[cnrd]

Does anyone here know what X5 is used for? On my controller it seems to be connected to the white wire on the 9 pin waterproof connector.

 

[Yungyakz]

Hi,I just recieved my 18 mosfet controller in the post and noticed its different to the other boards posted on the forum and seems like a later version. It looks as if i can add a phase current sensor. Could anyone tell me how to hook up the programming, regen throttle and add a current sensor. Im planning on beefing up the traces, Changing caps, adding shunt from another dead kt controller and running 100a peak with this controller with K150E09NE mosfets.

 

[fratto]

Hi,I just recieved my 18 mosfet controller in the post and noticed its different to the other boards posted on the forum and seems like a later version. It looks as if i can add a phase current sensor. Could anyone tell me how to hook up the programming, regen throttle and add a current sensor. Im planning on beefing up the traces, Changing caps, adding shunt from another dead kt controller and running 100a peak with this controller with K150E09NE mosfets.

View attachment 1

I would say the programming interface is THE OTHER ONE labelled "SOFT" in your second photo .
You can also check with a digital multimeter if your programming connector has the usual pin order ( from left to right, as showed in your photogragh ) : 5V, SWIM , GND, RST.

For more info:
https://opensourceebikefirmware.bit...ies--BMSBattery_S12S--Programming_header.html
https://github.com/stancecoke/BMSBattery_S_controllers_firmware/wiki/02-Preparing-the-hardware

Regards and success :wink:

 

[silentguy]

duplicate post. Deleted

 

[silentguy]

I’m attempting to install the open source firmware on a KT24/36 SVPR - HRD01 controller and use a Sempu T4 Torque Sensor.


There is a throttle connector , speed sensor , and a PAS sensor.

How do I wire both the throttle and the torque sensor

There are 5 wires on the Sempu torque sensor.

I read in the thread about DC/ DC step down , and using pad x4 but I’m not sure how to do either of these.

Any help appreciated

Thanks.

 

[fratto]

Hello,
Fratto does use it with a ZWS sensorless controller after disabling FOC/interpolation.
I don't understand your answer.

EDIT : OK, I didn't see previous answer of Stancoke, but I still don't understand how it could work with Fratto's ZWS which is sensorless controller without adding sensor module.

Regards,
Christophe

Hi Christophe,

As Valopallo already explained, my motor DO HAVE the 3 signals from the motor hall sensors , which serves as feedback for the rotor position, necessary condition if you want to run the open source firmware. It is the connector labelled "motor-hall sensors" in this picture:



You can read more about hall sensors here :
https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbucket.io/development/Motor_control--BLDC_6_steps.html
https://opensourceebikefirmware.bit...Motor_phases_and_hall_sensor_connections.html

What I DO NOT HAVE in my KT motor controller board is the phase current sensor ( its place in my ZWS PCB is empty ), so that's why (before compiling and writing the firmware ) I had to disable the simplified FOC, as instructed by Stancecoke .

Hope now things would seem more clear
Regards

 

[silentguy]

I’m attempting to install the open source firmware on a KT24/36 SVPR - HRD01 controller and use a Sempu T4 Torque Sensor.


There is a throttle connector , speed sensor , and a PAS sensor.

How do I wire both the throttle and the torque sensor

There are 5 wires on the Sempu torque sensor.

I read in the thread about DC/ DC step down , and using pad x4 but I’m not sure how to do either of these.

Any help appreciated

Thanks.

B8A2275D-8C53-45DB-AB24-535D87197938.jpeg

Ok I think I’ve successfully flashed the KT 36 SVP controller with a open source torque sensor firmware.

Now I just need to figure out how to wire the 5 wires from the sempu torque sensor to the PAS 3wires / throttle 3 wires / speed sensor 3 wires ?

I have pics of the sempu wiring
Voltage is actually 8-60v on the T4 sempu torque sensor.




Thanks for Any help

 

[silentguy]

I saw stancecoke replied in this thread



What is the DC/DC step down ?

I have 5 wires on the sempu Torque Sensor , Including a yellow direction/speed wire.

Do I need all 5 wires ?

I found the x4 pad inside the KT 36svp controller
If I wire a length of wire and connect I to a thumb throttle will it work. ? 3 wires are needed
I use the other 2 wires from the throttle connector ?

 

[stancecoke]

I found the x4 pad inside the KT 36svp controller

You only need the x4 pad if you want to use a thumb throttle in parallel. Otherwise you can connect the torque signal to the throttle connector.
See the german wiki:
https://www.pedelecforum.de/wiki/doku.php?id=elektrotechnikpen_source_firmware_fuer_sxxs_ktxx_-controller:drehmomentsensoreinbindung

regards
stancecoke

 

[silentguy]

Thanks for the link and Diagram.
This helps a lot

The fifth torque sensor wire ,Yellow wire speed / direction is not needed.
There a 6th blue wire for programming the torque sensor that is not used either.

Yes I want to use a thumb throttle and torque sensor in parallel.

Do I Keep the throttle controller connector white wire to the Torque sensor white wire. ?

So I would just add a wire to X4 and connect to the physical thumb throttle white wire?

What about the other 2 thumb throttle wires , red , black ,
I just connect those to 5v and ground ?

That means 3 wires are going to white throttle connector on the controller ; 1 White wire from Torque sensor and 1 wire from X4 and 1 wire from the thumb throttle.


Or is it as simple as this :
White wire from Torque Sensor goes to pad X4 inside the KT controller.
White, Red, Black wire From the thumb throttle on the handlebars go to the white ,red , black wires of the Throttle connector that is wired outside the KT controller ?

Regarding the DC-DC step down circuit.
I am using the newer Sempu T4 which has voltage rating of 10v - 60v.
I don’t think I need the DC-DC step down voltage circuit then ? The Sempu T4 can handle the 36v from the battery or display directly ?

Thanks for the help.